Just a heads up...selling without a license
I have a friend that lived here in WY for most of his life. Five years ago he decided to move to Wisconsin. He is retired air force and has never been charged with a crime in the past. Long story short, he has been buying and selling firearms for the past few years and he sold a Glock to a WI resident with a CCW permit. That person sold the Glock to another person who them sold it to another person and somehow the pistol ended up being used to kill a police officer in Chicago. Of course ATF traced the handgun and found out that it had passed thru my friend's hands. They did further research and found out that he had been buying guns, keeping them for a few months, then re-selling them. He was doing legal sales but according to ATF, too many for a private seller. They confiscated 70 guns from his home, his cell phones, computers and examined his bank records claiming that he was "in the business of selling guns without a license". He was just sentenced to three years in Federal prison with the judge telling him he wanted to make an example of him. Had that one gun not been used in such a serious crime, he might have flown under the radar forever. He could not afford a private attorney and the public defender they assigned to his case was totally an anti gun liberal and did nothing at all to help get him a better deal at sentencing. He contacted the NRA for advice and they would not even talk to him because he had let his membership lapse. So he loses his SSI and pension for the three years he is in prison and has to reapply once he is released.
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Wow, sorry to hear about your friend. 0 -
seems clear in the federal regulations i wonder how some gunshow sellers never get the same?? 0 -
sorry to here sounds like they were looking for a fall guy
a old fellow down the road from me I would guess late 70's early 80's
has been a trader of just about anything for ever traded and sold lots of guns I stopped by and talked with him a few times great fellow retired but always like to trade
I bet he had 150+ rifles and shotguns lined the wall of his 3 car garage . nothing great just used run of the mill truck hunting guns you would not need to worry about rust or scratches [B)] not couting all the you name it its here items [:0]
a few years back when a gun or ammo were like hens teeth word got around fellows were travailing 50 to 100 miles to buy guns from him
BATF caught wind raided his place in full force several trucks and cars
full of agents they took all the guns even the ones he was working on for friends close to 200+ guns I think it was about 90K in cash his pension and his wife had passed a short time before so he had all the cash at home .
he got off loosing all the guns not allowed to have another gun and XX years probation no jail time
I think he got most of the cash back and due to his age and circumstances
something about just being a old fellow and his hobby that just got out of control on him , was how it came down , he still wheels and deals but no guns0 -
The Federal laws do not prohibit someone from selling their personal collection or selling to change up your collection, obviously if you are buying and selling to make a profit than you are a dealer.
Could be a gray line but you probably need a good attorney and lots of money to win that one.0 -
sometimes ya dance on the edge and fall off the cliff...TS 0 -
Remember to vote for more government tomorrow. More of your guys will be better masters than more of their guys. 0 -
CS, your friend will probably end up losing more than the scumbag that did the murder. 0 -
This is the exact reason I reapplied for another FFL a few years back when I decided to thin out my herd some.
Form different stories I've heard there really is no set number as to how many of your personal firearm you can sell before they can claim you are a dealer.
I fully agree with Ditch-Runner that they were looking for a fall guy.0 -
The part I do not understand is how they came to the conclusion that he was operating as a dealer by looking into one gun sale??? I understand they were tracing the one gun back through the hands that it went through, but how did they find out that he had bought and sold guns regularly? 0 -
"I bought that gun at the flea market. I don't remember the guy's name." 0 -
Anytime F-Troop can make themselves look useful or like they actually deter crime they will.
Even at the expense of honest folks.
Not sure how any patriotic American with a red, white and blue soul work for them.0 -
Yea, that's seems very harsh. The guy got hosed very bad IMO and do time!! Hell, they have convicted felons who harmed people do probation. IMO, he got rolled.
Yea, yea, don't quote regulations of the BATF to me. He was steamrolled and with no priors, B.S.[:(]0 -
I carefully read the OP several times and believe that the salient part is "he has been buying and selling firearms for the past few years".
In short, he was doing exactly what he was charged with.0 -
Pigs get fed hogs get slaughtered. 0 -
Never underestimate what a supervisory FLEO will do to justify his annual Merit Pay bonus.
Remember, this is an agency that couldn't find a single person involved in buying 2,000 rifles (at taxpayer expense) & giving them to the Mexican drug gangs.
Neal0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rocky Raab
I carefully read the OP several times and believe that the salient part is "he has been buying and selling firearms for the past few years".
In short, he was doing exactly what he was charged with.
It's not likely that this type of behavior was facilitated by emails or online forum discussions or popular for sale public web sites or auction sites or social media (twitter - instagram - reddit - my space - etc)
And left an associated trail of evidence and activity easily accessible to a public or private investigator
Or that someone he did business with outside of the local county state regional or national / federal law did something wrong or got busted and rolled on the subject of this post
Or that some dem lib prog alt left social justice warrior snowflake witnessed any activity and dimed him out
Mike0 -
Your friend SHOULD get a GOOD lawyer who knows or can read and understand the law and have him look into the loss of military retired pay. They can mess with ?disability? retirement within limits IF he is actually incarcerated (LOCKED UP). I believe you have to be convicted of treason to forfeit regular retired pay.
Of course as usual I could be wrong (but I don?t think so).0 -
There has to be more to the story....Is this the guy?
https://www.justice.gov/usao-edwi/pr/janesville-man-charged-dealing-firearms-without-license0 -
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
The part I do not understand is how they came to the conclusion that he was operating as a dealer by looking into one gun sale??? I understand they were tracing the one gun back through the hands that it went through, but how did they find out that he had bought and sold guns regularly?
No doubt they investigated everybody that gun was traced to0 -
FWIW- the ATF does not address "profit". The term is "engaging in the business" of buying and selling guns. Their definition is devoting time and attention to making a livelihood.
I have an M1 carbine. Find a better specimen, buy it, decide to sell the one I have- NOT engaging in the business.
I buy a crate of 5 Mosin-Nagants. Pick the one I like best and sell the other 4 right away. REAL shaky ground, and will likely be considered engaging in the business.
I am at a gun show, selling off some guns I no longer want. Someone offers me a Browning Hi-Power for $100. I buy it, and immediately put it on the table with a $500 tag. THAT has gotten a few folks arrested (ATF sting)
Having said that, I am not a lawyer. If you get arrested I will NOT be standing next to you in court.0 -
Well if you said he's been buying and selling guns for the last few years, it sounds like he's been doing it as a business. I don't believe in gun laws, but they are still on the books. And you should be smart enough not to break them.and if you're not smart enough not to break them, then I guess you'll have to live with the consequences. 0 -
That does seems like a harsh sentence for a older retired military guy, never committed a crime in his life but......don't convince yourself he didn't know what he was doing was wrong, he knew and got caught. More than likely he pissed the ATF agents off during the initial investigation with attitude and then they played hard ball with him. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Junkballer
That does seems like a harsh sentence for a older retired military guy, never committed a crime in his life but......don't convince yourself he didn't know what he was doing was wrong, he knew and got caught. More than likely he pissed the ATF agents off during the initial investigation with attitude and then they played hard ball with him.
Or he was offered a much more lenient sentence and insisted upon going to trial or delaying the process, and after being found guilty got the hammer.
If you're buying and selling guns for the past few years, that sounds an awful lot like being in the business of buying and selling guns without an FFL. And doing that without putting aside some money for an attorney or an NRA membership and some legal assistance or SOMETHING----that's just dumb.
If you want to know who ratted him out, I'd start looking at local FFLs and gun shop owners. They have the most to lose from folks undercutting their business.
Sorry, that isn't what you want to hear, but I honestly don't view this as a tragic case.0 -
11b6r pretty much sums it up.
There are ways to tell if someone is "repeatedly buying and reselling" which throws up the "dealing without a license flag"
One is if you purchase more than one handgun within 5 days from an FFL. There is a report of multiple handgun purchase filled out and faxed into the ATF that is looked at and stored on hand. If they are getting several of these with a certain persons name on it and later these guns are showing up on gun traces it is a pretty good indication that the person is reselling them.
Another scenario regarding the multiple sales forms is if the person keeps buying common pistols, like 5 Glock .40s at one time, then a few weeks later buy 5 more. I can guarantee that someone that buys 10 Hi-point cf380s on one transaction will most likely get a visit from the police or ATF within a few hours[:0]
Anyway, the gun laws are on the books, if you aren't selling guns often enough to be on their radar you are fine. If you are selling enough guns to be on their radar you should probably just get an FFL and then you don't have to worry about it. Thats what kills me, these gun show sellers with 100 guns on display and no FFL, they are playing with fire, obviously they are in the business or have an interest in buying and selling guns, why don't they just get the damn FFL instead of getting their guns confiscated and a jail term, doesn't make sense to me.0 -
That sucks for your friend.
Several years ago, I had to go to Phoenix to testify in the trial of an "unlicensed dealer." Seems I had sold him a gun, shipped it to him through his dealer, and later he sold it for profit at a gun show. Mine was just one. He did this a lot.
After I testified and was no longer under the rule, I observed the rest of the trial. It appeared that the government made a pretty good case against the unlicensed dealer, and I figured he was a goner, but the jury found him NOT GUILTY.
I think what saved him was that he got ID from all his buyers, and recorded that information, along with information on the gun purchased, on a legal pad.
The government wasted no telling how many tax dollars and man-hours on this case. It cost them several hundred dollars to get me there and back, and house and feed me for two days, and there were several other FFL witnesses.
And even though our suspect was found not guilty, he had to spend tens of thousands of dollars on his legal defense, and he will forevermore be on the BATFE radar.
And you can go to any gun show, and see exhibitors doing the same thing, over and over. I can't see that the profit is worth the risk. If I ever give up my FFL, I'm out of the business altogether.0 -
Sorry for your friend but the money would not be worth the risk for me to buy and try to resell guns for a profit.
Sad0 -
quote:Originally posted by Junkballer
That does seems like a harsh sentence for a older retired military guy, never committed a crime in his life but......don't convince yourself he didn't know what he was doing was wrong, he knew and got caught. More than likely he pissed the ATF agents off during the initial investigation with attitude and then they played hard ball with him.
What he did was illegal. Not wrong. There is a difference.0 -
quote:I think what saved him was that he got ID from all his buyers, and recorded that information, along with information on the gun purchased, on a legal pad.
While I do the same for my records, I sell very seldom and always through my transfer ffl. I could see this if he did it a lot as being evidence of his being a dealer without benefit of a license. I wonder how the jury saw it differently.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Junkballer
That does seems like a harsh sentence for a older retired military guy, never committed a crime in his life but......don't convince yourself he didn't know what he was doing was wrong, he knew and got caught. More than likely he pissed the ATF agents off during the initial investigation with attitude and then they played hard ball with him.
There's a difference between wrong and illegal. What he did was illegal.
I don't know what the law is in wisconsin about private sales, but he probably answered too many questions and incriminated himself.
The real travesty is that we allow legislators to criminalize victimless transactions between private individuals. and that there are active participants in the gun community (and this thread) that applaud such nonsense.0
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