Pearl Harbor and WWII
How would WWII have been different if we had been ready for the attack ? My late father inlaw was in the Navy and out at sea on the USS Lamson (DD367) and was returning to base when the attack happened. My late mother inlaw lived off base and saw the whole attack.
EvilDr235
EvilDr235
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The Iowa class non withstanding - the coming conflict would be fought be carrier groups (fleet to fleet aerial engagement via ships over the horizon by planes and escorts) and island hopping domination via air superiority gained by carrier launched aircraft from battle carriers and land based forces on carved out or captured airstrips filled with jeep carrier transported planes...
As in the other theaters the big capital ship with guns and armor had become somewhat anachronistic and it's day was done - the hourglass of ship to ship and fleet to fleet engagements led by massive capital ships (battle ships and monitors and dreadnoughts) had begun it's final chapter.
Good fortune or good intelligence our carriers were not in pearl on than dreadful day of infamy. And in a twist of fate or through incredible foresight it was the carrier and carrier group that won the strategic war in the pacific.
I know think very few history buffs have any idea how many carriers the imperial Japanese navy had - in many specialized roles - and planned to construct...
Helicopter assault carriers - light carriers to support and work with sun's and airships - big fleet carriers - cruiser converted armored assault carriers - specialized light carriers...
And the ineffectiveness of the yamato and other large capital ships in their primary role of fleet or task group breaker can not be discounted.
Interesting are the two long range high speed light battle cruisers the US designed and built at the end of the war - planning on pairing them with super carriers in battle groups - they had planned to build a large number and scrap the old battle wagons but that never happened after the wars end. The first two of this class sit in the Philadelphia navy yard and the specs are quite imposing especially the purported speed greater than the Iowa class.
Just some thoughts on the topic - pat me on the back or rip me to pieces...
Mike0 -
I am no military expert, but I will jump in here.
First, out naval vessels would have been out to sea and not trapped in the harbor.
The ground assets would have been on high alert with everything locked and loaded. The planes would have been in the air to intercept the Jap aviators before they ever arrived at the Hawaiian island chain.
If we knew where the attacking planes were being launched from, we would have sent subs and aircraft to sink the carriers that launched them.
I don't think out military leaders would have waited for the Japs to fire the first shot as that would have put American lives at risk.0 -
had we known, the 1st shots would have been fired by us ONLY when the recognised distance- 12 miles??? had been violated. it would not have been on the high seas. as it is, we did fire the 1st shots, the US Ward sinking the jap mini sub prior to the air attack 0 -
if i remember correctly there were several indicators that were ignored like some of the jap diplomats hauled for home just before ..clues were missed in hawaii and DC ???? no effective long range reconnaisance in circling hawaii so they slipped in from the nw 0 -
quote:Helicopter assault carriers - light carriers to support and work with sun's and airships - big fleet carriers - cruiser converted armored assault carriers - specialized light carriers...
Helicopter were not used till Korea if I am right and then only in Rescue Operation. It was not till VN that they had a different roll.0 -
With foreknowledge of the attack, the worse case scenario would have been the battle fleet at sea with the protection of the Enterprise, Lexington and Saratoga.
Had that been the case, and the Japanese had found the fleet, there was the real possibility that the three carriers and the bulk of the battle line would have been at the bottom of the Pacific instead of resting in the mud at Pearl.
We need to remember that the carrier raids that were conducted January - May of 1942 were as much pilot training exercises as anything. Without this practical training, the Coral Sea and Midway could have been a lot different.
Had we foreknowledge, there is every possibility that the reconstitution of the Pacific Fleet would have taken over a year, and that battles such as the one at Midway in June of 1942 could not have been undertaken for at lease another 6 - 10 months.
As the sinking of the Prince of Wales and the Repulse showed, it did not really matter whether a battleship is tied up at a dock or underway. As mike points out, absent air cover, they are sitting ducks.0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrmike08075
Interesting are the two long range high speed light battle cruisers the US designed and built at the end of the war - planning on pairing them with super carriers in battle groups - they had planned to build a large number and scrap the old battle wagons but that never happened after the wars end. The first two of this class sit in the Philadelphia navy yard and the specs are quite imposing especially the purported speed greater than the Iowa class.
Mike
The Alaska Class were some of the most beautiful ships ever to put to sea, Mike. A 30,000 ton heavy cruiser with 9 12" guns and an anti-aircraft capability to match that of the Iowa class.
They were cruiser/destroyer killers in addition to their anti-aircraft capability. Some references state 35 knots. Would have loved to been aboard one during a full power run.0 -
I believe that after the occupation of the Philippines the Japanese imperial navy had a light converted carrier that was equipped with helicopters...
I will do some further research and see what I can find.
Mike0 -
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quote:Originally posted by mrmike08075 
https://youtu.be/_EFt7cLCRSY
Mike
While outwardly similar, Mike, an Autogyro is more an airplane with a rotating wing than a helicopter. It cannot hover, nor does it have controls that are effective in anything other than forward flight.
It does have the advantage of the ability of a near vertical landing. Pitcairn, in the US, developed some advanced versions, IIRC in the 20s or 30s that used engine power to get the rotor started, resulting in the first STOL aircraft. I believe Piaseki (sp) also developed functional auto-gyros prior to WWII.
FWIW, the US and Germany fielded actual helicopters prior to the end of WWII. The Focke (Wulf or Achgelis) in Germany and Sikorsky in the US had production models that saw service.
To the best of my knowledge, there were no Japanese helicopters fielded during the war.0 -
You are probably correct but I cannot shake the feeling that I have read about helicopters being used on the Chinese mainland and from carriers during the occupation of the Philippines - I will do some digging today and see if I can find anything.
And thanks for the replies or engaging in the discourse - I appreciate your insight and input.
Mike0 -
Roosevelt and his aides knew we were going to be attacked. Even an idiot wouldn't line up every battleship we had in the Pacific in a row for a duck shoot unless they knew they were doing it for a purpose. 0 -
If the ships hadn't been there the Japanese might have gone after the oil tanks and other infrastructure on the island.
Destruction of the base would have hurt us far more than loss of the battleships did.
What no one has mentioned is if the heavies had survived how would the commanders of the time used them? Would they have tried to fight the last war (as we tend to do) or would they have seen that carriers were the new weapons of choice?
But the bottom line is would the American people have reacted with the same total commitment to the war effort if we hadn't gotten beaten up so bad in the attack?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Smitty500mag
Roosevelt and his aides knew we were going to be attacked. Even an idiot wouldn't line up every battleship we had in the Pacific in a row for a duck shoot unless they knew they were doing it for a purpose.
They were moored like that starting in May of 1940 when Roosevelt moved the Battle Line from the west coast to Pearl Harbor. The way the ships were moored was a function of the harbor, not Roosevelt's desire to kill Americans.0 -
a good "what if" question would be, had the fleet had notice, and was at sea shadowing the Jap fleet , would Nagumo still initiate the attack on Pearl, or even on the American fleet- on the high seas. with the element of surprise lost, and the declaration of war still far off, i feel Adm. Nagumo woulod haqve been his overly cautious self and refused to launch.. once the final Japanese declaration had been delivered tho, if the AMerican carriers were there in the shadowing contingent, it would have been ugly for the AM fleetas the IJN carrier forces were very good, and ours were just learning.. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Laredo Lefty
I am no military expert, but I will jump in here.
First, out naval vessels would have been out to sea and not trapped in the harbor.
The ground assets would have been on high alert with everything locked and loaded. The planes would have been in the air to intercept the Jap aviators before they ever arrived at the Hawaiian island chain.
If we knew where the attacking planes were being launched from, we would have sent subs and aircraft to sink the carriers that launched them.
I don't think out military leaders would have waited for the Japs to fire the first shot as that would have put American lives at risk.
Pretty much sounds like the battle of midway when all 4 jap carriers were sunk.0 -
And what if Japan had not attacked the US at all?
Would we have gone to war to protect Dutch and English possessions and the Philippines?
And would we have gone to war to protect England?0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrmike08075
You are probably correct but I cannot shake the feeling that I have read about helicopters being used on the Chinese mainland and from carriers during the occupation of the Philippines - I will do some digging today and see if I can find anything.
And thanks for the replies or engaging in the discourse - I appreciate your insight and input.
Mike
The most interesting Japanese carrier, IMO, was the Shinano. Laid down as the third Yamato class battleship, she was converted while building (after Midway) into a 60,000+ ton Aircraft Carrier. Sunk by submarine launched torpedoes within a month of here launch and before she was properly fitted out, she never saw action. She would have been a beast, but at less than 30 knots and sluggish at the helm like the Yamato and Musashi, she would quickly have followed them to the bottom if engaged by the US Fleet carriers.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hawk Carse
And what if Japan had not attacked the US at all?
Would we have gone to war to protect Dutch and English possessions and the Philippines?
And would we have gone to war to protect England?
in reply to this, USA would not have entered the war[in the pacific] officially in behalf of the English and Dutch..fdr had massive opposition to any war. Churchill was trying every trick he knew to get the USA to join in, but isolation was the thought of the day...however, there would have been expanded usage of the American Volunteer Group, mercenaries if you will. whether this mercenary force would have included navy ships is anybody's guess0 -
It is curious that the navy's most modern weapons, the carriers, just happened to be at sea while the obsolete battle ships were docked. It is also curious that the Japs went after those ships instead of destroying the fuel depots and bases. But they did give FDR the excuse he wanted for entering WWII. 0 -
the lexington and enterprise were returning to pearl from delivering USMC VF211 to wake island[enterprise],and VSMB231 to Midway[lexington] slated to return Dec 6,1941. the same storm that allowed the Japs to travel to pearl un noticed, delayed the lex and big e by a day, as they arrived in the evening 12/7/1941. all the other carriers were on the atlantic side. hornet, wasp, yorktown, long island, and ranger...shoots that conspiracy down doesn't it? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by Smitty500mag
Roosevelt and his aides knew we were going to be attacked. Even an idiot wouldn't line up every battleship we had in the Pacific in a row for a duck shoot unless they knew they were doing it for a purpose.
They were moored like that starting in May of 1940 when Roosevelt moved the Battle Line from the west coast to Pearl Harbor. The way the ships were moored was a function of the harbor, not Roosevelt's desire to kill Americans.
BS! And the more important and more expensive to build aircraft carriers just happened to be out on maneuvers. Yeah right.0 -
The first shots fired at Pearl Harbor on Dec-7-41 were from the USS Ward which sunk a Japanese mini-sub.
Based on the reports from the Ward, if they had been taken seriously we would have been ready, or at least more ready then we were.
Trinity +++0 -
carriers .delivering planes to wake and midway were legitimate missions...being stationed on the atlantic side expedcting a German attack is legitimate. no conspiracy fodder there.. the fleet at Pearl? ya the carriers, no 0 -
quote:And would we have gone to war to protect England?
I've read that the UK knew of the attack beforehand, but said nothing so the Us would enter the war.
After we did, Germany declared war on the US. The only country they actually declared war on.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Smitty500mag
quote:Originally posted by Don McManus
quote:Originally posted by Smitty500mag
Roosevelt and his aides knew we were going to be attacked. Even an idiot wouldn't line up every battleship we had in the Pacific in a row for a duck shoot unless they knew they were doing it for a purpose.
They were moored like that starting in May of 1940 when Roosevelt moved the Battle Line from the west coast to Pearl Harbor. The way the ships were moored was a function of the harbor, not Roosevelt's desire to kill Americans.
BS! And the more important and more expensive to build aircraft carriers just happened to be out on maneuvers. Yeah right.
The term 'Battleship Row' was coined well before the 7 December attack by the Japanese.
Also, the Iowa Class battleships (Appx. $ 100 million) were a lot more expensive than the Essex Class carriers ( Appx. $ 70 million).
So, my statement was factual, and your cost assumption was incorrect.
As noted by others, the Lexington and Enterprise were not 'On maneuvers', rather were delivering aircraft to assist in the defense of Wake Island and Midway. Two US assets that were thought to be more likely Japanese targets than Pearl.
History is can be your friend or your foe. Reading and understanding will make the difference.0 -
As previously mentioned, the Yorktown was on escort duty in the Atlantic on Dec. 7, 1941. It passed through the Panama Canal on Dec. 25, 1941. My uncle Joe was on that ship until the battle of Midway. 0 -
Two accounts of the first Japanese Zero to be shot down at K-Bay. One of the two accounts has K-Bay being attacked at 7:50 AM, just prior to the attack on Pearl Harborabout 7:50 AM, December 7:
Blog
https://pearlharborwarbirds.com/kaneoh{elsewhere}-naval-air-station-photos/
Duel in the Rising Sun
http://www.historynet.com/duel-rising-sun.htm0 -
A bomb stopped all this
https://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/could-japanese-jet-fighter-have-won-the-pacific-war-240300
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