Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update
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Hello all.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
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Thanks Bert, Is the saddle ring screwed into the receiver? Dan 0 -
quote:Originally posted by buckhunter1948
Thanks Bert, Is the saddle ring screwed into the receiver? Dan
Hello Dan,
The saddle ring stud is screwed into the receiver.0 -
Bert,
I have 1 for your survey. I have no expertise w/ these guns. I got it in a trade and will be putting it on GB for auction sometime soon.
1144226
Barrel is marked a bit different than you show:
-WINCHESTER-MODEL94-WINCHESTER-32-W.S.-
PROOF STEEL -TRADE MARK-
Serrated butt plate
NO drill and tap
Milled band
Problems formatting stamp, proof steel centered under WINCHESTER, trademark hyphens are extra long and trade mark is centered under WINCHESTER.
And 1 question. There is a 3 stamped just in front of the trigger. Does that mean anything?
Thanks for your hard work,
DL0 -
Hello DL, and thank you for the information.
The "3" stamped just in front of the trigger is an inspector or assembler's stamp.
I am aware that there are several minor iterations of the roll stamp used by Winchester. I have the first type and the third type. The stamp on your Model 94 is apparently the second type. Can you provide me with a clear picture of the barrel stamp? If so, please send it to me at Win1885@msn.com0 -
e-mail sent Bert 0 -
Hi Bert, I've got a Model 64 that I think was make in 1937. This is the rifle that I shoot in all of the Lever Action Matches at our gun club. The buttplate is correct. It has a Redfield marked flat plug where the buckhorn sight would have went. 
0 -
quote:Originally posted by GUTSS
Hi Bert, I've got a Model 64 that I think was make in 1937. This is the rifle that I shoot in all of the Lever Action Matches at our gun club. The buttplate is correct. It has a Redfield marked flat plug where the buckhorn sight would have went.
Thank you very much for posting the pictures[:)]. What caliber is your Model 64 Rifle?
You are correct about the year of manufacture. Based on the serial number, it was manufactured in March/April of 1937. The Redfield sight and dovetail filler was a factory optional sight.0 -
Sorry about that, it says .30 WCF 0 -
Hello Bert,
I have a well worn Model 94 with serial #1284440. It is marked 30W.C.F. and there is no "W" between the serial # and lever.
No receiver sight holes. It has a serrated steel butt plate and milled front barrel band. The rear sight elevator is like toadtown's, no checkered part extending out the rear. I believe it was manufactured during the mid-1940's.
Regards,
Steve0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bacon51
Hello Bert,
I have a well worn Model 94 with serial #1284440. It is marked 30W.C.F. and there is no "W" between the serial # and lever.
No receiver sight holes. It has a serrated steel butt plate and milled front barrel band. The rear sight elevator is like toadtown's, no checkered part extending out the rear. I believe it was manufactured during the mid-1940's.
Regards,
Steve
Hello Steve,
Your Model 94 was actually manufactured in early 1941 making it a pre-war gun. It is a bit too late to have the "W" stamp, but I suspect that the leading "1" digit actually looks more like an "L".0 -
Hey Bert.
In A LOT of the earlier 1894's you can see striations running across the receiver.
I always assumed it was from refinishing, sanding, steel wool, but now it is apparent it was something from the milling process.
Is that what it's from?
Bill0 -
Thanks for the update on my Model 64. I was unaware of the change to .30-30 WIN. from 30 W.C.F. being as late as it was. Too bad that Cody hasn't the records on the late guns, 'cause I'd like to know the exact assembly date of my gun. The fact that the receiver carries a 1948 serial number, yet the barrel has post-1950 markings sounds typical of Winchester's parts storage "issues". 0 -
quote:Originally posted by MrGnA
Hey Bert.
In A LOT of the earlier 1894's you can see striations running across the receiver.
I always assumed it was from refinishing, sanding, steel wool, but now it is apparent it was something from the milling process.
Is that what it's from?
Bill
Hello Bill,
Not quite... it was the result of the forging process. The striations never run quite straight across the length of the receiver frame like they would if caused by a milling machine. Those striations are something I specifically look for on all of the older Winchester models, and are a positive indicator that the gun in questions has not been refinished.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mike D.
Thanks for the update on my Model 64. I was unaware of the change to .30-30 WIN. from 30 W.C.F. being as late as it was. Too bad that Cody hasn't the records on the late guns, 'cause I'd like to know the exact assembly date of my gun. The fact that the receiver carries a 1948 serial number, yet the barrel has post-1950 markings sounds typical of Winchester's parts storage "issues".
Hello Mike,
You are quite welcome.
One thing you might try, is to remove the forend stock and look for a 2-digit year date stamp on the bottom of the barrel. I too suspected exactly what you did... that the receiver frame sat in the parts bin for a few years before being assenbled into a complete rifle. It would be really nice if you find a "50" or "51" on the bottom of the barrel.
As a point of interest, Model 64 serial number 1695096 is marked "30 W.C.F." (and it is the highest serial number I have thus far with that marking), while serial number 1707797 was the first Model 64 in my survey with the "30-30 WIN" marking. Both rifles were made in 1950.0 -
Bert,
Much Thanks!
Here's my example:0 -
'Ya know, Bert, that pulling the forend off that gun is a major PITA.
I removed the cap, which had probably never been off the gun prior to today, and it appears that the magazine and the forearm tip tenon will also require removal before the forend will come off. It shows no signs of ever being off the gun and is TIGHT. I don't want to screw anything up on this beauty, so might wait for a better day.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Mike D.
'Ya know, Bert, that pulling the forend off that gun is a major PITA.
I removed the cap, which had probably never been off the gun prior to today, and it appears that the magazine and the forearm tip tenon will also require removal before the forend will come off. It shows no signs of ever being off the gun and is TIGHT. I don't want to screw anything up on this beauty, so might wait for a better day.
Hello Mike,
I believe you, and unless you are 100% comfortable with disassembling it, don't do it! There is no sound reason to take a gun apart that has never been apart just for the sake of curiousity.0 -
Hi Bert,
Sorry for the miss que on my first attempted reply.
Model 94-30-30 WIN-
and below that is "---Winchester proof steel---"
I don't see that on any of your other pix.
It has a milled barrel band
factory drilled for sights
checkered steel but s/n 2,125,442
I took this piece out of service from a friend of mine as it was backing out primers pretty bad and I want to keep my buddy alive.
I understand some brass with thicker rims might work ok, but my gunsmith says there really isn't any way to make the old ones any safer because of the complex areas of wear and the newer brass typically having thinner rims.
I hope this is a little help and I'll look for your comments.
Thanks
[/quote]
No problem... I deleted your first attempt to cut down on the clutter.0 -
OK, and on to your question & comments,
Unless that gun was shot a lot with hot handloads (and the receiver frame has strecthed), there should be no reason for the primers to be backing out. Based on the serial number, it was manufactured in early 1955... a relatively young Model 94 by most standards.
Did you have your 'smith check the headspace? I find it doubtful that the barrel has been swapped, as it has the correct markings for the serial number vintage.
Speaking of the marking on your barrel, it should look just like this one...0 -
I have a win 94, serial#1.442 million in 25-35 WCF with flat band. also checkered steel butt plate. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dirtcop
I have a win 94, serial#1.442 million in 25-35 WCF with flat band. also checkered steel butt plate.
Please PM me with the complete serial number. Of the (74) Flat-band Carbines I have in my survey thus far, only (4) of them are 25-35 W.C.F.'s, which makes it a relatively rare.0 -
I have a Model 94, Serial #2150262 that was left to my by my grandfather some time ago. He purchased it new. Just wanted to add to the post and get your two cents on this particular item. I may be able to post some photos. The rifle has never been touched up, or most likely ever seen by a smith. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by tewdemons
I have a Model 94, Serial #2150262 that was left to my by my grandfather some time ago. He purchased it new. Just wanted to add to the post and get your two cents on this particular item. I may be able to post some photos. The rifle has never been touched up, or most likely ever seen by a smith.
Is it a 30-30 WIN. or a 32 WIN. SPL.? The serial number indicates that it is a late 1955 production Carbine. I would appreciate seeing some pictures of it[:)].0 -
Hi, Bert,
I'n not sure if this has any bearing to what your are seeking, but thought it might help. I'm looking at an early 1894 rifle. It has a full length magazine tube, is marked "25-35 W.C.F." on the left side barrel flat, topstrap is stamped "MODEL 1894 WINCHESTER TRADE MARK REG. IN U.S. PAT. OFF." Barrel length measures 25 3/8 inches from the front of the receiver to the muzzle. The left barrel flat is marked "NICKEL STEEL BARREL ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER". The front sight is marked "WESTSITE" on the left side. The top flat of the barrel is stamped "MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS CO. NEW HAVEN, CONN. U.S.A. PATENTED AUGUST 21, 1894." The serial no. is 4779XX, which I have been told, puts its DOM about 1910. This rifle has a crescent buttplate, although the top is different than the carbine buttplate pictured in your posting, and the contour is different. The buttplate is not checkered or serrated. Needless to say, it is not tapped for a peep sight. The barrel band does not not go around the barrel, but appears to be set into a dovetail on the bottom of the barrel, goes around the magazine tube, and is secured with a pin. It appears to be a milled part. An inspector's stamp on the top front of the receiver matches an adjacent one on the top barrel flat and is a long P overstamped by a W. The receiver definitely has the forging stirations.
Hope this will, help your research.0 -
quote:Originally posted by airmung
Hi, Bert,
I'n not sure if this has any bearing to what your are seeking, but thought it might help. I'm looking at an early 1894 rifle. It has a full length magazine tube, is marked "25-35 W.C.F." on the left side barrel flat, topstrap is stamped "MODEL 1894 WINCHESTER TRADE MARK REG. IN U.S. PAT. OFF." Barrel length measures 25 3/8 inches from the front of the receiver to the muzzle. The left barrel flat is marked "NICKEL STEEL BARREL ESPECIALLY FOR SMOKELESS POWDER". The front sight is marked "WESTSITE" on the left side. The top flat of the barrel is stamped "MANUFACTURED BY THE WINCHESTER REPEATING ARMS CO. NEW HAVEN, CONN. U.S.A. PATENTED AUGUST 21, 1894." The serial no. is 4779XX, which I have been told, puts its DOM about 1910. This rifle has a crescent buttplate, although the top is different than the carbine buttplate pictured in your posting, and the contour is different. The buttplate is not checkered or serrated. Needless to say, it is not tapped for a peep sight. The barrel band does not not go around the barrel, but appears to be set into a dovetail on the bottom of the barrel, goes around the magazine tube, and is secured with a pin. It appears to be a milled part. An inspector's stamp on the top front of the receiver matches an adjacent one on the top barrel flat and is a long P overstamped by a W. The receiver definitely has the forging stirations.
Hope this will, help your research.
Thank you for posting, but the information you provided is not of any use to my survey. The information I am seeking is specific to the later production Carbines.
What you have is a standard production Sporting Rifle that was manufactured in late 1910. The butt plate is the standard "crescent" type used on the vast majority of the Sporting Rifles.0 -
Hi, Bert. I have #2320036, marked "32 WIN. SPL." with checkered steel buttplate. Date of manufacture would be appreciated. Thanks. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Spider7115
Hi, Bert. I have #2320036, marked "32 WIN. SPL." with checkered steel buttplate. Date of manufacture would be appreciated. Thanks.
Hello Tom,
Thank you for the information. Based on my production estimates for the 1950 - 1964 vintage Model 94s, it was manufactured in December of 1958, but it most likely was not completely assembled and shipped until early 1959.0 -
Bert,
I have a model 94.
s/n 1874693
Barrel marked 32 Win. Spl.
It has the checkerd steel butt plate.
It has the milled barrel band.
It has the remains(base?)of a reciever mounted sight. My dad bought the rifle for my brother and me in about 1974 and the sight has never been complete as long as we have owned it.
The information I had, and now I don't even remember where I got it, said it was made in 1951 if I recall correctly.
Can you confirm that date Bert? Thanks in advance.0 -
Hi Bert,
I have 3 94's that fit into your range.
1009891 32 spcial, button mag, crescent butt.
1852675 30-30 steel butt
2583488 30-30 steel butt.0 -
quote:Originally posted by MT357
Bert,
I have a model 94.
s/n 1874693
Barrel marked 32 Win. Spl.
It has the checkerd steel butt plate.
It has the milled barrel band.
It has the remains(base?)of a reciever mounted sight. My dad bought the rifle for my brother and me in about 1974 and the sight has never been complete as long as we have owned it.
The information I had, and now I don't even remember where I got it, said it was made in 1951 if I recall correctly.
Can you confirm that date Bert? Thanks in advance.
Is it factory drilled & tapped for the receiver sight? If you are unsure, dismount the sight, and checked the tapped holes... if they are completely in the white (no bluing), it is non-factory work.
Based on my estimate, it would have been manufactured in December of 1951. If you remove the forend stock, there should be a 2-digit year code stamped on the bottom of the barrel near the frame.0
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