Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update
Pinned
Hello all.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
0
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Hello Bert,
Model 94
Serial number 1545518
-32 W.S.-
Flat barrel band
Checkered steel buttplate
No receiver sight holes
Model 94
Serial number 1612264
-30 W.C.F.-
Milled barrel band
Checkered steel buttplate
No receiver sight holes
Model 94
Serial number 1788098
-30-30 WIN.-
Milled barrel band
Original buttplate replaced with a Pachmayr recoil pad long ago.
Has a Lyman No. 66A receiver sight installed, rear sight dovetail filled with a Marble's blank.
Short foreend wood
(This one is a shooter and still gets a lot of use.[:)])
Model 55
Serial number 9922
-30 WC.F.-
Steel buttplate with horizontal lines (as it should)
No receiver sight holes (not messed with)0 -
quote:Originally posted by schintzie
Hello Bert,
Model 94
Serial number 1545518 DOM is 1948
-32 W.S.-
Flat barrel band
Checkered steel buttplate
No receiver sight holes
Model 94
Serial number 1612264 DOM is 1949
-30 W.C.F.-
Milled barrel band
Checkered steel buttplate
No receiver sight holes
Model 94
Serial number 1788098 DOM is 1951
-30-30 WIN.-
Milled barrel band
Original buttplate replaced with a Pachmayr recoil pad long ago.
Has a Lyman No. 66A receiver sight installed, rear sight dovetail filled with a Marble's blank. The receiver sight was a special order option in 1951, but became a standard option in 1952.
Short foreend wood
(This one is a shooter and still gets a lot of use.[:)])
Model 55
Serial number 9922 DOM is 1927
-30 WC.F.-
Steel buttplate with horizontal lines (as it should)
No receiver sight holes (not messed with)
Thank you very much for the information. I inserted the DOM and other information above.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by toadtown
I have a 94, sn 1524815. It has the checked buttplate and is marked -30WCF as seems appropiate for its number. The barrel band is flat. It appears all correct escept for the part which elevates the rear sight blade, which part is simply a flat piece with notches in it, no checkered part sticking out the end.
Hello toadtown,
Your Model 94 flat-band was manufactured in 1948. Can you post (or send me) a picture of the rear sight elevator?0 -
Bert,
Two more that went through our gun show saterday.
Model 94 SRC
Serial #774368
30 WCF
Rifle butt plate
Model 94 Carbine
Serial #2064092
30-30 Win
Metal checkered butt plate
Round barrel bands
W.D.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bert H. Originally posted by toadtown
I have a 94, sn 1524815. It has the checked buttplate and is marked -30WCF as seems appropiate for its number. The barrel band is flat. It appears all correct escept for the part which elevates the rear sight blade, which part is simply a flat piece with notches in it, no checkered part sticking out the end.
Hello toadtown,
Your Model 94 flat-band was manufactured in 1948. Can you post (or send me) a picture of the rear sight elevator?
I have some photos to post but I am not a computer programmer or software designer. That being the case, there does not seem to be any way for me to post a photo on this forum. I read the faqs but got no help from them. If you would like to tell me how to do it I would love to.
Regards;
David Jackson[img][/img]0 -
quote:Originally posted by toadtown
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.Originally posted by toadtown
I have a 94, sn 1524815. It has the checked buttplate and is marked -30WCF as seems appropiate for its number. The barrel band is flat. It appears all correct escept for the part which elevates the rear sight blade, which part is simply a flat piece with notches in it, no checkered part sticking out the end.
Hello toadtown,
Your Model 94 flat-band was manufactured in 1948. Can you post (or send me) a picture of the rear sight elevator?
I have some photos to post but I am not a computer programmer or software designer. That being the case, there does not seem to be any way for me to post a photo on this forum. I read the faqs but got no help from them. If you would like to tell me how to do it I would love to.
Regards;
David Jackson[img][/img]
Hello David,
Please read the information in this topic - http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=259294
It explains how to post pictures on this forum.0 -
Bert
I have a model 64 serial #1092229 30WCF with butt plate you show it is not drilled and tapped
John0 -
quote:Originally posted by jls49
Bert
I have a model 64 serial #1092229 30WCF with butt plate you show it is not drilled and tapped
John
Hello John,
First, thank you very much for the information. I do have two questions;
1. Is your Model 64 a Carbine (20-inch barrel)?
2. Does it have a bolt mounted peep sight?0 -
Burt it has a 24 inch barrel and it does not have a bolt mounted peep sight. I think the buck horn sight is a replacement
John0 -
quote:Originally posted by jls49
Burt it has a 24 inch barrel and it does not have a bolt mounted peep sight. I think the buck horn sight is a replacement
John
Can you post (or send me) a picture of the rear sight (and left side of the receiver)?
Edit: I forgot to add... your Model 64 was one of the last few made in the year 1933. Serial number 1092328 was the last Model 94/64 made in the year 1933.0 -
Bert, taken with my phone not sure how they would turn out. Hope they help.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Sage Bert, taken with my phone not sure how they would turn out. Hope they help.
Thanks... can you get a clear photo with a regular digital camera? I would really appreciate clear well lit photos for my article.0 -
Hello Bert. If you are interested I have a very early 94 i believe it was produced in 1898 Has been in my family for as long as i can trace it back 70 80 years maybe more. don't know much about it. The finnish is almost a silver color from years of wear although it has been stored safely and unused for at least 50 years.I am sure that in it's early years it was well used. seems to be all original. I would apriciate anny info you could give me. Info ass follows. mod 94 30/30 sn# 111746 spring loaded Marbles peep on tang crescent butt plate .This rifle works perfectly and is a nice unaltered piece of American history. Thanks. hunt mann 0 -
quote:Originally posted by hunt mann
Hello Bert. If you are interested I have a very early 94 i believe it was produced in 1898 Has been in my family for as long as i can trace it back 70 80 years maybe more. don't know much about it. The finnish is almost a silver color from years of wear although it has been stored safely and unused for at least 50 years.I am sure that in it's early years it was well used. seems to be all original. I would apriciate anny info you could give me. Info ass follows. mod 94 30/30 sn# 111746 spring loaded Marbles peep on tang crescent butt plate .This rifle works perfectly and is a nice unaltered piece of American history. Thanks. hunt mann
Hello Charles,
Winchester Model 1894 serial number 111746 was manufactured in April of the year 1901.
Based on the fact that it has a crescent butt plate, it appears to be a Sporting Rifle. If you can post pictures of your Winchester, I can provide you with a better overall evaluation of the gun.
Marbles sights were real common on the turn-of-the-century Model 1894s.
If you are interested, the Cody Firearms Museum research department can provide you with a Factory letter ($60) which will give you the exact date that it was received in the warehouse, the original configuration, and the date that it was sold (shipped) - http://www.bbhc.org/firearms/records.cfm0 -
Thanks Bert.I will try to post some pics latter today. thanks again Chuck 0 -
Bert here are the pics I told you that I would send of my 94. This rifle has never been polished or buffed out. Only lightly wiped down. I forgot to mention the rear barrel sight is missing. Was the tang peep sight generally factory installed or after market? If so is that why there is no rear barrel sight or is it just missing. Although I do not intend on selling I would still like to know the value of this rifle for insurance purposes. Thanks appreciate the info 0 -
Hello Chuck,
I am sorry to have to tell you this, but your old Winchester is a long way from being original. It is what some collectors refer to as a "frankenstein" Winchester.
Specifically;
1. The barrel is much newer than the receiver. As I previously mentioned, the serial number tells us that the receiver was manufactured in April of 1901. The barrel was manufactured sometime after early 1950 (the rolled marked/stamped information on the barrel is the identifying clue). Winchester did not change the caliber stamp from "30 W.C.F." to "30-30 WIN" until 1950.
2. The front barrel band (flat-band) was only used in the years 1946 - 1948.
3. The butt stock is not original to the gun and is the style used on the Sporting Rifle versus a Saddle Ring Carbine (which is what this gun originally was). Note how poorly it fits at the receiver, and that the wood is noticeably undersized to the steel.
4. Somebody ground off the saddle ring stud (the large round flat spot on the left rear side of the receiver frame), and damaged the other screw just below it.
5. The original barrel mounted rear sight is missing, and the Marbles tang sight is most likely not original either. If you dismount the tang sight, you will find that the upper tang is marked
MODEL 1894
-WINCHESTER-
PAT.AUG.21.1894
So to summarize this for you, what you have is Model 1894 SRC that was pieced together using Model 94 parts with different production dates, and it has been subjected to a grinder or file. It now has essentially zero collector value, and is now purely a "shooter". As such, I highly encourage you to take it out and use it as such. Sorry the news turned out on the grim side.0 -
Ouucchh. that stings. but the truth often hurts.this is why i asked you .the person that had this gun for many years has passed and i wish i could have gotten this info from him.Obviously the info that i had gotten was tainted .but not intentionally . thanks for this painful bit of truth. it still will have sentimental value to me. Chuck. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by hunt mann
Ouucchh. that stings. but the truth often hurts.this is why i asked you .the person that had this gun for many years has passed and i wish i could have gotten this info from him.Obviously the info that i had gotten was tainted .but not intentionally . thanks for this painful bit of truth. it still will have sentimental value to me. Chuck.
I was sure that it would not exactly be pleasant news for you, but I strongly believe in being upfront and frank with everyone when I post a reply to a question. Treasure the gun for what it is... a piece of family history. Again, take it out and shoot it on a regular basis... if you hunt, take it with you on a few trips.0 -
Thanks Burt.I will do that. 0 -
Hi Bert:
A book called The Winchester Model 94 The First 100 Years by Robert C Renneberg is the best resource I've ever used. John C.
page 95-99 reference different butt plates.
page 124-142 reference barrel markings
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
Hello all.
I am attempting to research all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please either post your information here, or send it directly to me at Win1885@msn.com.
Specifically, I am trying to determine the approximate serial number transition point for...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
Used only on the Model 94...
Used on both the Model 94 and 55...
Used only on the Model 94...
Used almost exclusively on the Model 64...
(4) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(5) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band
Milled...
Flat...
And finally, to determine the serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
Thanks in advance to all who respond & participate[:)].
Bert H.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 4rugers
Hi Bert:
A book called The Winchester Model 94 The First 100 Years by Robert C Renneberg is the best resource I've ever used. John C.
page 95-99 reference different butt plates.
page 124-142 reference barrel markings
I am intimately familar with the book that you refer to, and Bob Renneberg and I are well acquainted with one another. Bob is currently working on a new revision to the book you mention, and the results of my survey are being used to make some of the revisions.0 -
I have a Model 94 with the serial#64873.
Two pictures here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33713501@N06/sets/72157611589441611/
3rd and 4th photo in that set.
I can supply more photos if you need them0 -
quote:Originally posted by fredsherq
I have a Model 94 with the serial#64873.
Two pictures here:
http://www.flickr.com/photos/33713501@N06/sets/72157611589441611/
3rd and 4th photo in that set.
I can supply more photos if you need them
Hello Fred,
It appears that you have a Model 1894 "Extra Lightweight" Sporting Rifle. The serial number tells us that it was manufactured mid year 1899.
Your Model 1894 has much too early of a production date for what I am specifically seaking, but thank you very much for your post about it.0 -
I have a Model 94, serial # 1506972, steel fully checkered butt plate and marked Model 94-30 WCF. The end piece you referred to does not appear to be stamped. I can't tell for certain. Hope that helps. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by umoxford
I have a Model 94, serial # 1506972, steel fully checkered butt plate and marked Model 94-30 WCF. The end piece you referred to does not appear to be stamped. I can't tell for certain. Hope that helps.
Hello umoxford,
Thank you very much for posting the information on your 1948 vintage Model 94 Carbine. The front barrel band on your Carbine should be the "flat-band" variety, as it is in the correct serial number range (please refer to the first post in this topic, as there are pictures showing each type of barrel band).0 -
Hey Bert, are you going to or have you already done the 1873's? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by CHGOTHNDER
Hey Bert, are you going to or have you already done the 1873's?
My answer is No, and No.
My primary interest is in the John M. Browning designed Winchesters, and the Model 1873 does not fit the bill. Fortunately for you and many other interested collectors, nearly all of the original Model 1873 records have survived, and as such, they can be researched. It will be a very time consuming task though, as the original factory ledgers cover a 51-year production period, and contain records for more than 720,000 guns. To give you an idea of the effort it will take, it took three people more than 4-years to examine the 353,999 serial number records for the Model 1894.0 -
I have a 94 .32 W.S. sn#960990 It had a saddle ring and elevater rear sight but my uncle sawed off the ring and we replaced the sights with Lyman. What year was it made? Thanks Dan 0 -
quote:Originally posted by buckhunter1948
I have a 94 .32 W.S. sn#960990 It had a saddle ring and elevater rear sight but my uncle sawed off the ring and we replaced the sights with Lyman. What year was it made? Thanks Dan
Hello Dane,
Your Model 94 SRC was made in the latter half of the year 1923.0
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