Winchester Model 94, 55, & 64 Survey update
Pinned
Hello all.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
I am researching/surveying all of the pre WW II production through post WW II era production Model 94s, Model 55s, and Model 64s that I can locate. For those of you who are interested and would like to participate in a survey concerning several different production changes made to the Models 94, 55, and 64, please review the information that I am specifically looking for, and then post your information here on this topic, or you can send it to me directly at Win1885@msn.com.
5/24/202 Edit 4: Well, here I am again, and still at it. As of today, I now have logged (surveyed) just shy of 25,000 specimens, and I still looking for more. For the past number of years, I have been collaborating with Robert (Bob) C. Renneberg, and have written and published a number of articles of my own discussing the Model 1894(94), Model 55, and Model 64 production. I have added serial numbers 1 - 7499 to my survey list (looking for the semi-rare "First" models. Please get in touch with me via email if you have an interest in supporting the research survey.
12/8/2014 Edit 3: I have surpassed 10,500 total serial numbers in this research survey, and I am still working towards reaching the 16,000 mark. Due to a welcome increase in the number of people who are actively assisting me with this research, I plan to continue this survey well beyond my original goal. Sometime early next year (2015), I will post the current results of the survey in an easy to read format.
9/24/2011 Edit 2: I am rapidly closing in on (5,000) total serial numbers in this survey, and I would like to surpass that mark before the end of this month. The various production numbers represented in the survey have firmed up considerably in this past year, and I do not believe that they will change by any significant % as the survey continues to progress. Still, it is my intention to keep this survey alive and growing until I reach the (16,120) total serial numbers surveyed mark (1% of the total numbers in the survey range). At that point, I will publish a statistical analysis reference document detailing my findings.
Edit 1: I have come to the realization that I need to ask all of the following questions...
1. The complete serial number (please, no partial serial numbers).
2. The exact caliber stamp marking.
3. The specific type of butt plate, e.g. Carbine, serrated steel shotgun style, flat checkered steel, hard rubber, or the checkered steel plate with the widows peak and diamond surrounding the lower screw hole.
4. The type (style) of the upper tang marking, e.g. type 5, 6, or 7, or if it is blank.
5. Is the left side of the receiver factory drilled & tapped for a peep sight?
6. Does it have U.S. martial or Canadian PCMR markings on the receiver frame?
7. Does it have a Nickel Steel or a Proof Steel marked barrel?
8. Does it have a saddle ring?
9. If in the 1,200,000 - 1,270,000 serial range, is the bottom of the receiver marked with a "W"?
10. If in the 1,260,000 - 1,330,000 serial range, does the leading "1" digit look like an "L"?
11. If in the 1,370,000 - 1,560,000 serial range, does it have a flat-band or a milled front barrel band?
12. If in the 1,700,000 - 1,770,000 serial range, does it have the long or the short forend stock?
13. If it is a Model 55, is it a Take Down or Solid frame?
14. If it is a Model 64, is it standard Rifle, a Deer Rifle (deluxe), a standard Carbine, or a deluxe Carbine?
More specifically, I am trying to determine the serial number transition points for the caliber markings on the barrel...
(1) "30 W.C.F." versus "30-30 WIN" marked barrels,
(2) "32 W.S." versus "32 WIN. SPL."
(3) "25-35 W.C.F." versus "25-35 WIN."
(4) The transition point from the traditional curved steel carbine butt plate, to the steel shotgun style with the horizontal cut lines (serrated), and again the later transition to the flat checkered steel plates.
(5) Upper Tang roll stamp types (e.g. Type 5, 6, 7, or blank)
(6) Those guns that were factory drilled & tapped for a receiver mounted peep sight (Lyman or Redfield).
(7) The transition from the milled front barrel band to the flat-band, and then back to the milled band.
(8) The exact serial range for the "W" stamped guns...
(9) The exact serial range for the leading "L" digit serial number stamped guns...
And finally, I am attempting to determine the precise serial number transition points for the Models 55 and 64.
If you own (or know of) a Model 94, 55, or 64 in the 1,000,000 - 2,700,000 serial range, please take a close look at it, and then either post, or send the information directly to me. Your name and information will remain anonymous if you email the information to me. I will post updated results in this Sticky topic as the survey progresses.
In closing, I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to this survey, and to all who particiapte in the future. [:)].
Bert H.
0
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quote:Originally posted by mikey888f
bert: haven't had it in mu hands yet. mike
OK, please let me know when you have it in hand.0 -
Bert, Since you are researching the 94's, I have a question that you might be able to answer for me. I can't find in my blue books, any pre 64 1894 in nickel with gold accents. Yet, I have one. I was told that it is a 1963. Any idea if there was a "special run" made in that year, with those attributes by Winchester? I will email the SN in the next few days.
Thank you!
John0 -
quote:Originally posted by waveblaster
Bert, Since you are researching the 94's, I have a question that you might be able to answer for me. I can't find in my blue books, any pre 64 1894 in nickel with gold accents. Yet, I have one. I was told that it is a 1963. Any idea if there was a "special run" made in that year, with those attributes by Winchester? I will email the SN in the next few days.
Thank you!
John
Hello John,
I am not aware of any that were made in that configuration, but I would like to reserve judgement until I can see some pictures of the gun.0 -
1.sn 1449805
2.30 W.C.F
3.Checkered steel
4.Blank
5.No
6.No
7.Proof Steel
8.No ring
9.*
10.*
11.Flat band
12.*
13.*
14.*0 -
quote:Originally posted by Buster1895
1.sn 1449805
2.30 W.C.F
3.Checkered steel
4.Blank
5.No
6.No
7.Proof Steel
8.No ring
9.*
10.*
11.Flat band
12.*
13.*
14.*
Thank you very much for the information on your Model 94 Flat-band Carbine. The serial number indicates that it is a 1947 vintage gun. The description makes it standard in all respects. It is now the 422nd Flat-band in my survey[:)].0 -
Here's another, nothing special plain ol' standard 94.
1.sn 2022242
2.30-30 Win
3.Checkered steel
4.Blank
5.Yes
6.No
7.Proof Steel
8.No ring
9.*
10.*
11.*
12.*
13.*
14.*0 -
Hi Bert: If you still need info, here is some more: I have a model 94 in 32 Win. Spec. It was advertised as "made in 1943", but I know that can't be true, can it? Madis' little book would indicate it might be though? Here is the info:
1.s/n = 1324550
2. - 32 w.s. -
3. Serrated steel butt plate
4. Type 7 upper tang marking
5. Not drilled or tapped
6. No martial markings
7. No barrel steel markings
8. No saddle ring
It has a milled barrel band.
There are no "W" or "L" stamped under the s/n on the receiver bottom.
I assume it is a standard rifle. It has a ~ 19 1/4 inch barrel.
By the way it is in excellent condition (I would say 98-99% blue and wood)
Hope this helps.
JP0 -
quote:Originally posted by Buster1895
Here's another, nothing special plain ol' standard 94.
1.sn 2022242
2.30-30 Win
3.Checkered steel
4.Blank
5.Yes
6.No
7.Proof Steel
8.No ring
9.*
10.*
11.*
12.*
13.*
14.*
Completely standard 1953 vintage Carbine.0 -
quote:Originally posted by JackP
Hi Bert: If you still need info, here is some more: I have a model 94 in 32 Win. Spec. It was advertised as "made in 1943", but I know that can't be true, can it? Madis' little book would indicate it might be though? Here is the info:
1.s/n = 1324550
2. - 32 w.s. -
3. Serrated steel butt plate
4. Type 7 upper tang marking
5. Not drilled or tapped
6. No martial markings
7. No barrel steel markings
8. No saddle ring
It has a milled barrel band.
There are no "W" or "L" stamped under the s/n on the receiver bottom.
I assume it is a standard rifle. It has a ~ 19 1/4 inch barrel.
By the way it is in excellent condition (I would say 98-99% blue and wood)
Hope this helps.
JP
Hello Jack,
Thank you for posting the information on your Model 94 Carbine[:)].
Serial number 1324550 is listed as being serialized on 3/17/1942. From your description, it is a standard Sporting Carbine (though the actual barrel length is 20-inches, as you did not measure the part of the barrel that is screwed into the receiver frame)). If you would like a value estimate, please post some pictures of the gun.0 -
And now an old one.
1.sn 14692
2.38-55
3.Crescent
4.Model 1894. -Winchester- Pat.Aug.21.1894.
5.No
6.No
7.None
8.No ring
9.*
10.*
11.*
12.*
13.*
14.*0 -
quote:Originally posted by Buster1895
And now an old one.
1.sn 14692
2.38-55
3.Crescent
4.Model 1894. -Winchester- Pat.Aug.21.1894.
5.No
6.No
7.None
8.No ring
9.*
10.*
11.*
12.*
13.*
14.*
I am not surveying the early (old) Model 1894s, as all of the original factory records exist for them (through serial number 353,999). That said, serial number 14692 went through the Polishing Room in early January, 1896. The Cody Firearms Musuem can provide the exact date, and a factory letter for it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by Buster1895
And now an old one.
1.sn 14692
2.38-55
3.Crescent
4.Model 1894. -Winchester- Pat.Aug.21.1894.
5.No
6.No
7.None
8.No ring
9.*
10.*
11.*
12.*
13.*
14.*
I am not surveying the early (old) Model 1894s, as all of the original factory records exist for them (through serial number 353,999). That said, serial number 14692 went through the Polishing Room in early January, 1896. The Cody Firearms Musuem can provide the exact date, and a factory letter for it.
OOOPS sorry0 -
Model 64
1.sn 1910590
2.30-30 Win
3.Checkered steel with widows peak butt plate.
4.Blank
5.yes
6.No
7.Proof Steel
8.No ring
9.*
10.*
11.*
12.*
13.*
14.Standard rifle.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Buster1895
Model 64
1.sn 1910590
2.30-30 Win
3.Checkered steel with widows peak butt plate.
4.Blank
5.yes
6.No
7.Proof Steel
8.No ring
9.*
10.*
11.*
12.*
13.*
14.Standard rifle.
Thank you very much for the information on this Model 64[:)]
The serial number indicates that it is a 1952 vintage rifle.0 -
I dont have the right camera for taking the close ups. I'll have to find someone that does.
Serial number 1718836
The letters FM are stamped in front of the trigger
It has the checkered steel butt plate
The caliber is 25-35 Win
It has the milled bands
I believe it has the short fore end stock
No saddle ring
What looks to be a P over a W inside a circle, stamped on the top at the start of the barrel and the end of the receiver
There is nothing stamped in the location shown below with the W and the L
There are no holes drilled on the top at all.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bbuell
I dont have the right camera for taking the close ups. I'll have to find someone that does.
Serial number 1718836
The letters FM are stamped in front of the trigger
It has the checkered steel butt plate
The caliber is 25-35 Win
It has the milled bands
I believe it has the short fore end stock
No saddle ring
What looks to be a P over a W inside a circle, stamped on the top at the start of the barrel and the end of the receiver
There is nothing stamped in the location shown below with the W and the L
There are no holes drilled on the top at all.
Thank you for participating in the survey. Of the (4020) serial numbers I have surveyed, only (97) of them are 25-35s. Your Carbine is a 1950 vintage Model 94, and it is normal in all respects, except it should have the long forend stock verus the short. The pictures will tell the story.0 -
Bert,
Sorry that I didn't reply sooner with the SN on that Nickel '94 W/ gold accents. Here it is: 2568062
Any help on who it was made for, I can't find a Nickel 1894 with gold accents IE: Front sight hood, trigger, rear sight, barrel bands, hammer, in any of my Blue Books. I greatly appreciate your help, all of you. Oh yeah, HAPPY NEW YEAR![8D]0 -
The stock is as long as the ones in the pictures. But not knowing what a short versus long looks like, its probably the long stock.
Its a beautiful weapon. Thanks so much for the input back. Would you comment on approximate value?
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by bbuell
I dont have the right camera for taking the close ups. I'll have to find someone that does.
Serial number 1718836
The letters FM are stamped in front of the trigger
It has the checkered steel butt plate
The caliber is 25-35 Win
It has the milled bands
I believe it has the short fore end stock
No saddle ring
What looks to be a P over a W inside a circle, stamped on the top at the start of the barrel and the end of the receiver
There is nothing stamped in the location shown below with the W and the L
There are no holes drilled on the top at all.
Thank you for participating in the survey. Of the (4020) serial numbers I have surveyed, only (97) of them are 25-35s. Your Carbine is a 1950 vintage Model 94, and it is normal in all respects, except it should have the long forend stock verus the short. The pictures will tell the story.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bbuell
The stock is as long as the ones in the pictures. But not knowing what a short versus long looks like, its probably the long stock.
Its a beautiful weapon. Thanks so much for the input back. Would you comment on approximate value?
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by bbuell
I dont have the right camera for taking the close ups. I'll have to find someone that does.
Serial number 1718836
The letters FM are stamped in front of the trigger
It has the checkered steel butt plate
The caliber is 25-35 Win
It has the milled bands
I believe it has the short fore end stock
No saddle ring
What looks to be a P over a W inside a circle, stamped on the top at the start of the barrel and the end of the receiver
There is nothing stamped in the location shown below with the W and the L
There are no holes drilled on the top at all.
Thank you for participating in the survey. Of the (4020) serial numbers I have surveyed, only (97) of them are 25-35s. Your Carbine is a 1950 vintage Model 94, and it is normal in all respects, except it should have the long forend stock verus the short. The pictures will tell the story.
The value is determined by the graded condition, and I will need to see some pictures of the gun to evaluate and assess it. That said, there is a substantial premium for the 25-35 WIN caliber. I suspect that it is worth at least $1800, possibly several hundred more.0 -
quote:Originally posted by waveblaster
Bert,
Sorry that I didn't reply sooner with the SN on that Nickel '94 W/ gold accents. Here it is: 2568062
Any help on who it was made for, I can't find a Nickel 1894 with gold accents IE: Front sight hood, trigger, rear sight, barrel bands, hammer, in any of my Blue Books. I greatly appreciate your help, all of you. Oh yeah, HAPPY NEW YEAR![8D]
OK, that makes it a very late 1962 or very early 1963 production gun. I very much suspect that the nickel and gold accents were added after the fact. As such, there is no way to determine the "who" or "why". If you are able, please post (or send me) some pictures of the gun.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bert H.
quote:Originally posted by waveblaster
Bert,
Sorry that I didn't reply sooner with the SN on that Nickel '94 W/ gold accents. Here it is: 2568062
Any help on who it was made for, I can't find a Nickel 1894 with gold accents IE: Front sight hood, trigger, rear sight, barrel bands, hammer, in any of my Blue Books. I greatly appreciate your help, all of you. Oh yeah, HAPPY NEW YEAR![8D]
OK, that makes it a very late 1962 or very early 1963 production gun. I very much suspect that the nickel and gold accents were added after the fact. As such, there is no way to determine the "who" or "why". If you are able, please post (or send me) some pictures of the gun.
Bert, I will try to send pictures. My gunsmith and I both have gone over the stamps/ writing on the barrel, and receiver, but it has not been nickeled after the fact. The numbers and letters are CRISP, with no "pooling" in the bottom of the stamps. No rounding in the inside corners of the lettering, that you would see if the finish was aftermarket. I don't think I can get a good enough picture for you to see what I mean, so I hope that my description was vivid!
Thank you for your help with my research. Do you know of a Winchester only forum?
Sincerely,0 -
quote:Originally posted by waveblaster
Do you know of a Winchester only forum?
Sincerely,
Check you email... I sent you a PM.0 -
Model 94
Serial# 1235767
30 W.C.F.
Serrated steel shotgun type buttplate
Type 7 tang
Not drilled and tapped
No martial markings
Proof Steel barrel
No saddle ring
W is on the receiver bottom, below the ser#
Milled band, long wood, checkered hammer.
How close can you date this rifle? I'm thinking early WWII. Thanks.0 -
quote:Originally posted by brewton51
Model 94
Serial# 1235767
30 W.C.F.
Serrated steel shotgun type buttplate
Type 7 tang
Not drilled and tapped
No martial markings
Proof Steel barrel
No saddle ring
W is on the receiver bottom, below the ser#
Milled band, long wood, checkered hammer.
How close can you date this rifle? I'm thinking early WWII. Thanks.
July 18th, 1940. Everything on your Carbine is standard.
Thank you for posting the information on your Model 94[:)]0 -
test 0 -
Ror the '94 survey:
1. 1,203,418
2. 30 W.C.F Type 7 in Renneberg book, page 139
3. Serrated
4. Tang Type 6
5. No
6. What?
7. Proof Steel
8. No ring
9. In range, but no W stamp. (there is one listed now with W)
10- 14 N/A
Sold my '69 GTO today. Very sad.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Douglas1911
Ror the '94 survey:
1. 1,203,418
2. 30 W.C.F Type 7 in Renneberg book, page 139
3. Serrated
4. Tang Type 6
5. No
6. What?
7. Proof Steel
8. No ring
9. In range, but no W stamp. (there is one listed now with W)
10- 14 N/A
Sold my '69 GTO today. Very sad.
Your Model 94 was manufactured in late February of 1939. It is standard in all respects.
Hopefully you bought an old MOPAR to replace that old Pontiac.0 -
I HAVE A 94 THAT MISSED THE CODY LIST BY 30000#S, IN 32 W.S. WITH CARBINE BUTT PLATE IN PRETTY GOOD CONDITION, IVE JUST RECIEVED IT FROM MY DAD WHOS 90 AND HES HAD IT ALL MY LIFE ANYWAY BUT IT WAS DOM IN 1907 ACTION IS STILL VERY GOOD NOT LOOSE AT ALL, WAS JUST WONDERING HOW TO TELL IF IT WAS U.S. ISSUED OR NOT 0 -
quote:Originally posted by lonewolf1
I HAVE A 94 THAT MISSED THE CODY LIST BY 30000#S, IN 32 W.S. WITH CARBINE BUTT PLATE IN PRETTY GOOD CONDITION, IVE JUST RECIEVED IT FROM MY DAD WHOS 90 AND HES HAD IT ALL MY LIFE ANYWAY BUT IT WAS DOM IN 1907 ACTION IS STILL VERY GOOD NOT LOOSE AT ALL, WAS JUST WONDERING HOW TO TELL IF IT WAS U.S. ISSUED OR NOT
It was not U.S. issued. The first time that Winchester purchased any Winchester Model 1894s was during WW I (circa serial numbers 835,000 - 855,000).0 -
1-382558
2-32 w.s.
3-carbine
4-#5 but says model 1894, winchester,trademark
5-no
6- n/a
7-nickel steel
8-no
9-single band on mag. hex barrel
is new store bought 32 w.s. ammo ok for this , is it still a black powder type?
also has 42 60 marked on receiver just ahead of trigger
and has a stamp on top of barrel and rec. of (P-T) with a sideways W between the P-T[?]0
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