You guys ever see a WWII 98K sniper rifle w/ scope
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[:0][:0][:0][8D][8D][8D][8D] 0 -
You guys ever see a WWII 98K sniper rifle w/ scope
97.347% here,Have NOT0 -
I still retain an Argentine Mauser model 1891 sniper rifle with the same scope - also pretty rare (the Nazi's were popular there and much military gear and architecture was provided)
It's one I intend on dying with
Mike0 -
Yep, I used to have one. I Gave it to my son 0 -
The Zielfernrohr 41, ZF41 was a long eye relief scope, issued by the German's in large quantities in WWII for use by sharpshooters with the Karabiner, K98k rifle.
Specialist sniping was neglected prior to the outbreak of WWII, with standard of marksmanship being seen as sufficient to not requite individual specialist sniper training.
Early wartime experience in Poland and France did show however, that there was a need to increase accuracy for sharpshooters, with a need to hit small targets, such as pill box slits etc. The ZF41 was therefore developed from a project started in 1939, not as an out and out sniping weapon, but as a general aid for sharpshooters.
The scope was 1.5 x powered, with a side rail mount, that was attached to the rail on the side of a K98, on the left of the rear sight, by rollers. Initially the rollers were flat, but changed at an early date to bevelled rollers. Factory issue K98's with the ZF41 were zeroed prior to final issue.
ZF41 Scope came with rainshields, case, original issue klarinol cloth and dust brush
The ZF41 was issued with it's case (Behalter), dustbrush, 2 rainshields and clarinol cleaning cloth (specialy treated to clean the lenses).
There were 2 main types of scope issued. An early model, approximately 13cm long, (17cm with rainshields extended) with a diameter of approximately 22cm to the lens barrel. Later scopes had a wider lens barrel of 24cm. The rainshields and cases are therefore not interchangeable between the two scopes.
ZF41 variants had a difference in adjustment dials, with later type lower and early model
Initially, the scope was to bare the designation K.F. and then was developed in 1940 as the ZF40. When widespread production started in 1941, it was re-designated the ZF 41.
The later type scope was to go through a minor modification, with a simplified internal lens system although externally very similar the later ZF41, with a slightly smaller occular. This was to have the designation ZF41-1 or ZF41/1.
Scopes were reworked by factories, prior to issue, often with the earlier designation milled out or with strike throughs and re-named.
From 1942, six percent of all K98's were to be equipped with the ZF41, although it is doubtful whether anywhere near this figure was achieved. By 1944 the telescopic equipped K98 was not held on the inventory or considered as a sniping weapon, enabling general wider issue to non specialist troops.
By this date, around 90,000 were known to be issued. The ZF41 was due to be phased out with issue of the ZF4, 4x power, optical sight, but production was known to be continued until 1945 and the ZF41 remained in service until the end of the war.
ZF41 Scopes in Period service
It is very hard to date scopes, due to serial numbers being assigned to all optics generally and not specifically to any one type, such as the ZF41.
Although field modified ZF41 rifles can be found with most manufacturers, there were 3 manufacturers of factory issue ZF41 K98 rifles:-
duv, Berlin-L?becker, L?beck 1941
ar, Mauserwerk, Borsigwalde 1942-1943
byf, Mauserwerk, Oberndorf 1943-1945
A full list of scope makers
bmj: Hensoldt & Sohne Optische Werke A.-G., Wetzlar
cag: Swarovski, Tyrol, Austria
clb: Dr. F. A. Wohler, Kassel
cxn: Emil Busch A.-G., Optische Industrie, Rathenow
ddv: Oculus, Berlin
dow: Opticotechna G.m.b.H., Prerau, Czech
dym: Runge & Kaulfuss, Rathenow
eso: Rodenstock Optische Werke, Munich
emv: Hertel & Reuss, Optik u. Feinmechanik, Kassel
fvs: Spindler & Hoyer, Gottingen
fzg: Feinmechanik G.m.b.H., Kassel
gkp: Rufs & Co, Kassel
jve: Ernst Ludvig Optisches Werk, Weixdorf
kov: Etablissement Barbier, Benard et Turenne, Paris
mow: Seidenweberer Berga C.W.Crous & Co., Berga/Elster
kay: Ford-Werke A.G., Werk, Berlin
hap: Kohl, S.G, Max Physikalische Apparate, Chemnitz
A large number of reproduction scopes and mounts are now on the market. They all have the cxn code and are in the 970000 number range. The highest serial number range seen on original cxn scope is in the 193000 range.
ZF41 Reproduction Scope & Mount
Mounts were originally stamped with a Waffenamt WaA 214 stamp and sometimes duv. This stamping has also been added on the reproduction mounts.
ZF41 Mounts with Waffenamt 214 stamps - reproduction on the left & orginal right
Some later original rainshields somtimes carry a number 27-1079J2. This is though to be a stock or order number.
ZF41 Rainshield
The ZF41 carrying case (Behalter) was made only by jvb, Wessel & M?ller, Beschlagfabrik (WaA542).
Early cans were a green colour, (or blue for Luftwaffe issue) with a leather or web belt strap. The hinge was mounted internally with a tube inside for the dust brush. The serial number of the scope was stamped on the case on the left side of the lid.
ZF41 Early Carrying Case - 'Behalter'
The case was then modified to have an external hinge, with all other features remaining unchanged.
Later cans then appeared in ordnance tan, dunkelgalbe and the internal dust brush tube was removed.
ZF41 Carrying Case in Ordnance tan
A fourth late war case was issued with a metal D-ring strap as opposed to web strap.
Late War ZF41 Carrying Case with metal D-Strap
There are a number of reproductions / copies on the market, which have over time, been reproduced to a very hight standard. There are a number of minor variations between original and reproduction cases, but the most visible difference, is on the back of the case, where the belt strap is secured.
Original cases will always have three strap rivets. The shape of the steel holder has a slight curve shape, which is missing from all current reproductions.
Several export variants have been noted and encompass a wide variety of Mauser action type platforms and designation - depending on country of purchase or unit adoption
Mike0 -
have had a couple in my years of collecting 0 -
Most of these imported were actually assembled by importers and are not actual ZF41 Mausers.
However, Oberndorf did make ZF41 guns. Production was ordered suspended end of 1943 but they continued to use scopes up until the end of the war. From Jan 44 they were no longer classified as scoped rifles just carbines with the "real" sniper Mausers using the Zielfehr etc being the ones classified as Sharpshooter (what Germans called snipers)
I am checking with those who can better attest to this being a put together or a real one.
The gun looks good, unmessed with to me but the numbers are not matching further giving reason to suggest a put together rifle
In my limited knowledge I have a couple of concerns (might be my limited knowledge)
The scope says duv which is a rifle maker and did make ZF41 equipped rifles but they did not make ZF41 scopes
Does this mean this scope was originally mounted to a duv rifle and after the war taken off and mounted on this Oberndorf K98k?
While many very good pictures are shown there are proofs under the bolt handle base that would show who made that bolt a must for K98k buyers0 -
quote:Originally posted by Wulfmann
Most of these imported were actually assembled by importers and are not actual ZF41 Mausers.
However, Oberndorf did make ZF41 guns. Production was ordered suspended end of 1943 but they continued to use scopes up until the end of the war. From Jan 44 they were no longer classified as scoped rifles just carbines with the "real" sniper Mausers using the Zielfehr etc being the ones classified as Sharpshooter (what Germans called snipers)
I am checking with those who can better attest to this being a put together or a real one.
The gun looks good, unmessed with to me but the numbers are not matching further giving reason to suggest a put together rifle
In my limited knowledge I have a couple of concerns (might be my limited knowledge)
The scope says duv which is a rifle maker and did make ZF41 equipped rifles but they did not make ZF41 scopes
Does this mean this scope was originally mounted to a duv rifle and after the war taken off and mounted on this Oberndorf K98k?
While many very good pictures are shown there are proofs under the bolt handle base that would show who made that bolt a must for K98k buyers
duv and the 214 Waffenampt on the mount is correct. They were used on all converted rifles. I put together some Zf-41 rigs myself. I got the rails out of Sweden, correctly Waffenampt'ed. All that is required is desolder the front sight, removed and replace the rear sight base, resolder the front sight, and shave the stock so the scope will slide onto the rail.
The numbers on the scope don't worry me much as lots are missmatched. The rifle needs to be disassembled and the rail assembly checked for the single Waffenampt on the bottom of the rear sight assembly. Original rails have it, the repros don't.
ADDENDUM: I still have an original duv marked mount I never used if anyone has a rifle with the rail. Original or repro scopes are available.0 -
This place has a plethora of knowledge. A lot of you guys are impressive, to say the least.
I have a 1915 Berlin Gewehr 98, Nazi Army re-arsenalled in 1943 to a 98K. One of my better deals. Scored when I worked at a Sawmill as a heavy equipment operator. Lots of buying, selling, and trading went on there. One of my buddies bought a .22 he wanted. The guy would only sell it "with this other gun," the guy did not want.
I was known as a "Gun guy." My friend walked up to my machine carrying this gun. (He did not know what it was.) I recognized it as a Mauser as he was walking up. Not only by the appearance, but primarily by the rear brass disc (take down assist) in the rear stock.
He didn't want to sell it. He wanted to trade something for it. We agreed on one of my (had two) Armscor/RIA M-20P semi-auto .22s with a scope, and a couple magazines. Needless to say, I made out. He was happy, I was happy. Win/Win. [:D]0 -
Hey - wait - I am supposed to be the sniper rifle expert here...
You guys constantly amaze and surpass me.
BTW my 1891 is topped with a Swarovski from Austria and unlike the German practice the Argentine's numbered their scopes to the guns receiver in the British fashion
Mike0 -
Interesting article in this months Guns & Ammo on these. They compare it to Col. Cooper's Scout Rifle concept. Need to actually read the whole thing when I get time. 0 -
According to a German vet these were actually big failures and particularly in Russia.
They transferred a bunch of the scopes/mounts to North Africa but the ship was sunk before it got there.
The scopes were all in sealed crates and the ship was lying in shallow water so after the war the crates were recovered.
This big bunch of ZF41 scopes and mounts were what were used to make a large amount of what became imported to the US.
They were not trying to scam people they were just mounting scopes to guns because people wanted them and at that time these were cheap guns sold in local Western Auto and such stores
But, because they are now 70 years past when converted they are well patina aged so look like any ZF41 K98k so research is required.
I know enough to get me in trouble so I ask on the Mauser boards and when I don't and buy something 3 out of 4 times I wished I had waited.
Still, if this is reasonable in price it will be better for a junior collector to have this than not have one at all and at least Oberndorf actually made ZF41s
I just can't see how something this mismatched would be a correct ZF41 but that is IMO0 -
Wasn't the market flooded by these guys at one time.
http://www.mauser.org/mosin-sniper-rifle/0 -
quote:Originally posted by Wulfmann
According to a German vet these were actually big failures and particularly in Russia.
They transferred a bunch of the scopes/mounts to North Africa but the ship was sunk before it got there.
The scopes were all in sealed crates and the ship was lying in shallow water so after the war the crates were recovered.
This big bunch of ZF41 scopes and mounts were what were used to make a large amount of what became imported to the US.
They were not trying to scam people they were just mounting scopes to guns because people wanted them and at that time these were cheap guns sold in local Western Auto and such stores
But, because they are now 70 years past when converted they are well patina aged so look like any ZF41 K98k so research is required.
I know enough to get me in trouble so I ask on the Mauser boards and when I don't and buy something 3 out of 4 times I wished I had waited.
Still, if this is reasonable in price it will be better for a junior collector to have this than not have one at all and at least Oberndorf actually made ZF41s
I just can't see how something this mismatched would be a correct ZF41 but that is IMO
Your German vet is correct. These are the crap end of German sniper collecting. The scopes are only 1.5 power. In low light, they are less than worthless. You're better off removing the scope and using the standard sights.
Why do you think Coopers stupid Scout rifle is such a joke? Besides being single shot, a little drizzle makes the scope worthless.
The reason being mismatched doesn't hurt them is because correctly assembled, the short range scope doesn't vary much on point of impact. The riflemen were forbidden to adjust the scopes themselves and that is where the variables can get boogered up. The rail mounted correctly along the axis of the barrel should be the same for all rifles within less than a degree.
I traded one of these I had made up for a snail drum for my Artillery Luger. The Rifle was all matching 43 ar code except for the bolt. Another I made with a 100% matching 43 bcd rifle. It was completely all original parts so by now it's probably now looked at as real.
I think Kaseys is a made up one. In '45, 98's were coming off the line with fixed sights to arm the Volkstrum and the Werewolves. No one was putting scopes on rifles.
High and low turrets Zf-39's are the snipers of choice. I sold my high turret, a real one, for 6 or 7K 10 years ago. God knows what a real one goes for now.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 84Bravo1
quote:Originally posted by mrmike08075
Hey - wait - I am supposed to be the sniper rifle expert here...
You guys constantly amaze and surpass me.
BTW my 1891 is topped with a Swarovski from Austria and unlike the German practice the Argentine's numbered their scopes to the guns receiver in the British fashion
Mike
Who (?) are you again? [:o)]
You are reading from an older firearms book, aren't You? Just quit it, already. Geez. (Show off.)
Actually I pulled out my Argentine 1891 variant of this sniper rifle - designated marksman - sharpshooter platform last night...
And also dug out my extensive file on the gun including which was last added to and updated in 2005
When going through the ephemera in the file I ran across my notes on the scope and thought most of it would be of interest to you
Plus whenever Kasey posts a link or asks a question and it's about a firearm I own I always try to give her some extra background or details (as I owe her a huge debt)
There are a few things that upon initial examination bother me about the gun featured in the link
The excessive heavy application of solder may be a late war rear area depot repair or rebuild / refurbish or it might indicate a post war assembly of parts
The importer in question is not none to me to fabricate fakes or reproductions and pass them off as originals - but except for my Persian sniper from pre revolution Iran none of my sniper rifles have import marks
I don't think that this case is an attempt to deceive and I think as always Kasey did due diligence and good research before auction
I would buy it - and I think it's okay but the German rifles are not my specific area of expertise
A Mauser or sniper forum might provide better answers - I did check it against mausers of the world and my notes and it looks okay to me
And Ken: I stole my data from a YouTube video posted by Ian at RIA - from his forgotten weapons series - not lifted from a reference book - as I have been accused of in the past here by an asshat troll
Mike0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Another I made with a 100% matching 43 bcd rifle. It was completely all original parts so by now it's probably now looked at as real.
Since Oberndorf (byf), Borisgwalde (AR) and Berlin-Lubecker (duv) were the only rifle companies that made ZF41s putting one on a matching Gustloff (BCD) would have actually devalued it considerably in today's market.
I am no expert but I do know completely original commands top dollar and the slightest detraction kills that value.
But, there was a time when lack of correct information allowed many things to be considered fine but no longer now that we know better.
IMO LF tries as hard as anyone to fairly describe her auctions but some things are difficult to ascertain particularly K98ks and their twist and turn variations0 -
quote:Originally posted by Wulfmann
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Another I made with a 100% matching 43 bcd rifle. It was completely all original parts so by now it's probably now looked at as real.
Since Oberndorf (byf), Borisgwalde (AR) and Berlin-Lubecker (duv) were the only rifle companies that made ZF41s putting one on a matching Gustloff (BCD) would have actually devalued it considerably in today's market.
I am no expert but I do know completely original commands top dollar and the slightest detraction kills that value.
But, there was a time when lack of correct information allowed many things to be considered fine but no longer now that we know better.
IMO LF tries as hard as anyone to fairly describe her auctions but some things are difficult to ascertain particularly K98ks and their twist and turn variations
I researched the Hell out of it and I read somewhere, maybe Senich's or Hogg's books that Company armorers were authorized to salvage and repair, including refitting, so it was possible to come across any maker in a conversion.0 -
When armorers did such a conversion they were distinctly marked. The rule is if you can not verify it consider it fake.
Never buy the story buy the evidence that can be proven
Those field conversion were mostly done by Bubba0 -
I will see if Barry thinks he can get the rear site off without boogering it up. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
I will see if Barry thinks he can get the rear site off without boogering it up.
Kasey, you don't have to take the sight apart. Just take the action out of the stock and turn it over. The rail is made into the base, the base is not numbered, but the on one of the two bands that hold the base to the barrel should be a single Waffenampt at the 180 degree position.0 -
(October issue of Firearms News has an article on the 'scope) 0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
I will see if Barry thinks he can get the rear site off without boogering it up.
Kasey, you don't have to take the sight apart. Just take the action out of the stock and turn it over. The rail is made into the base, the base is not numbered, but the on one of the two bands that hold the base to the barrel should be a single Waffenampt at the 180 degree position.
Cool.....sounds like we will be able to answer the questions we need to without having a terrifying screwdriver moment. (I hate when I have to do anything that MIGHT make a mark on something.)0 -
https://www.wwiigermansniper.com/zf-41
Here is a German sniper rifle web site. The link is to the ZF41 variant
Some quotes that apply (IMO) to this rifle
Production of the Zf. 41 started at Mauser Oberndorf in late 1943.
cut
In late 1944, starting in the L block Mauser resumed production and would continue into bfy 45 no letter block rifles. There are no legitimate Zf. 41 rifles reported any later then this. The reason for Mauser starting production of the Zf. 41 again is not known.
Mauser Oberndorf Zf41 rifles need to be classified into two groups, 1st production run and 2nd production run. The 1st production run rifles will have a e/135 on the sight base and rifle serial number engraved on the mount. By the time of the 2nd production rifles, the e/135 no longer shows up and scope mounts will be blank with no rifle serial number.
This rifle is a no letter block which would be correct for a ZF41 byf45 rifle.
The mismatched parts seems to indicate the barreled action is correct with other parts added to complete this into a rifle likely by an importer long ago because none of the parts look messed with (IMO)0 -
You should remove the stock and photograph the barrel channel to show if it is numbered to the receiver (or has no number at all which in 45 might be legit)
I can not make out a proof stamp on the right side of the butt stock. If there is one it would be good to show that up close (Should be Wa135)
IDing the stock as an Oberndorf and correctly numbered will increase the final bid.0 -
Bump - BTT
Mike0 -
Just added pics of the bottom of the scope base. I don't see any markings on it.
Also, there no numbers in the barrel channel of the stock.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
Just added pics of the bottom of the scope base. I don't see any markings on it.
Also, there no numbers in the barrel channel of the stock.
I recommend you add those 2 details to the description.
Because the numbers do not match buyers will likely assume mismatch stock so saying no # is important
An unnumbered Kriegsmodell stock is worth $500.00++ in original condition by itself0 -
Thanks for all the Help. 0 -
Finally.....I've added pictures of the stock. Thank you again! 0 -
Fingers crossed for it to do well - I still think it's a good gun
And I trust Kasey.
Mike0
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