Combat Rifle Evaluations
December 18, 2007
The primary weapon carried by most soldiers into battle in Iraq and Afghanistan performed the worst in a recent series of tests designed to see how it stacked up against three other top carbines in sandy environments.
After firing 6,000 rounds through ten M4s in a dust chamber at the Army's Aberdeen test center in Maryland this fall, the weapons experienced a total of 863 minor stoppages and 19 that would have required the armorer to fix the problem. Stacked up against the M4 during the side-by-side tests were two other weapons popular with special operations forces, including the Heckler and Koch 416 and the FN USA Special Operations Combat Assault Rifle, or Mk16.
Another carbine involved in the tests that had been rejected by the Army two years ago, the H&K XM8, came out the winner, with a total of 116 minor stoppages and 11 major ones. The Mk16 experienced a total of 226 stoppages, the 416 had 233.
The Army was quick to point out that even with 863 minor stoppages -- termed "class one" stoppages which require 10 seconds or less to clear and "class two" stoppages which require more than ten seconds to clear -- the M4 functioned well, with over 98 percent of the 60,000 total rounds firing without a problem.
"The M4 carbine is a world-class weapon," said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, the Army's top equipment buyer, in a Dec. 17 briefing at the Pentagon. Soldiers "have high confidence in that weapon, and that high confidence level is justified, in our view, as a result of all test data and all investigations we have made."
Though Army testers and engineers are still evaluating the data, officials with the Army's Infantry Center based in Fort Benning, Ga., said they planned to issue new requirements for the standard-issue carbine in about 18 months that could include a wholesale replacement of the M4. But the Army has been resistant to replace the M4, which has been in the Army inventory for over 18 years, until there's enough of a performance leap to justify buying a new carbine.
"We know there are some pretty exciting things on the horizon with technology ... so maybe what we do is stick with the M4 for now and let technologies mature enough that we can spin them into a new carbine," said Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat development at the Army's Infantry Center. "It's just not ready yet. But it can be ready relatively rapidly."
That's not good enough for some on Capitol Hill who've pushed hard for the so-called "extreme dust test" since last spring. Oklahoma Republican Senator Tom Coburn placed a hold on the nomination of Army Secretary Pete Geren earlier this year to force the Army to take another look at the M4 and its reliability.
In an April 12 letter to the still unconfirmed Geren, Coburn wrote that "considering the long standing reliability and lethality problems with the M16 design, of which the M4 is based, I am afraid that our troops in combat might not have the best weapon." He insisted the Army conduct a side-by-side test to verify his contention that more reliable designs existed and could be fielded soon.
Despite the 98 percent reliability argument now being pushed by the Army, one congressional staffer familiar with the extreme dust tests is skeptical of the service's conclusions.
"This isn't brain surgery -- a rifle needs to do three things: shoot when you pull the trigger, put bullets where you aim them and deliver enough energy to stop what's attacking you," the staffer told Military.com in an email. "If the M4 can't be depended on to shoot then everything else is irrelevant."
The staffer offered a different perspective of how to view the Army's result. If you look at the numbers, he reasoned, the M4's 882 total stoppages averages out to a jam every 68 rounds. There are about 30 rounds per magazine in the M4.
By comparison, the XM8 jammed once every 472 rounds, the Mk16 every 265 rounds and the 416 every 257 rounds. Army officials contend soldiers rarely fire more than 140 rounds in an engagement.
"These results are stunning, and frankly they are significantly more dramatic than most weapons experts expected," the staffer said.
Army officials say the staffer's comparison is "misleading" since the extreme dust test did not represent a typical combat environment and did not include the regular weapons cleaning soldiers typically perform in the field.
So the Army is sticking by the M4 and has recently signed another contract with manufacturer Colt Defense to outfit several more brigade combat teams with the compact weapon. Service officials say feedback from the field on the M4 has been universally positive -- except for some grumbling about the stopping power of its 5.56mm round. And as long as soldiers take the time to clean their weapons properly, even the "extreme" dust testing showed the weapon performed as advertised.
"The force will tell you the weapon system is reliable, they're confident in it, they understand that the key to making that weapon system effective on the battlefield and killing the enemy is a solid maintenance program and, just as important, is a marksmanship program," said Sgt. Maj. Tom Coleman, sergeant major for PEO Soldier and the Natick Soldier Systems Center. "So, you can't start talking about a weapon system without bringing in all the other pieces that come into play."
That's not enough for some who say the technology is out there to field a better, more reliable rifle to troops in contact now.
"It's time to stop making excuses and just conduct a competition for a new weapon," the congressional staffer said.
The primary weapon carried by most soldiers into battle in Iraq and Afghanistan performed the worst in a recent series of tests designed to see how it stacked up against three other top carbines in sandy environments.
After firing 6,000 rounds through ten M4s in a dust chamber at the Army's Aberdeen test center in Maryland this fall, the weapons experienced a total of 863 minor stoppages and 19 that would have required the armorer to fix the problem. Stacked up against the M4 during the side-by-side tests were two other weapons popular with special operations forces, including the Heckler and Koch 416 and the FN USA Special Operations Combat Assault Rifle, or Mk16.
Another carbine involved in the tests that had been rejected by the Army two years ago, the H&K XM8, came out the winner, with a total of 116 minor stoppages and 11 major ones. The Mk16 experienced a total of 226 stoppages, the 416 had 233.
The Army was quick to point out that even with 863 minor stoppages -- termed "class one" stoppages which require 10 seconds or less to clear and "class two" stoppages which require more than ten seconds to clear -- the M4 functioned well, with over 98 percent of the 60,000 total rounds firing without a problem.
"The M4 carbine is a world-class weapon," said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, the Army's top equipment buyer, in a Dec. 17 briefing at the Pentagon. Soldiers "have high confidence in that weapon, and that high confidence level is justified, in our view, as a result of all test data and all investigations we have made."
Though Army testers and engineers are still evaluating the data, officials with the Army's Infantry Center based in Fort Benning, Ga., said they planned to issue new requirements for the standard-issue carbine in about 18 months that could include a wholesale replacement of the M4. But the Army has been resistant to replace the M4, which has been in the Army inventory for over 18 years, until there's enough of a performance leap to justify buying a new carbine.
"We know there are some pretty exciting things on the horizon with technology ... so maybe what we do is stick with the M4 for now and let technologies mature enough that we can spin them into a new carbine," said Col. Robert Radcliffe, director of combat development at the Army's Infantry Center. "It's just not ready yet. But it can be ready relatively rapidly."
That's not good enough for some on Capitol Hill who've pushed hard for the so-called "extreme dust test" since last spring. Oklahoma Republican Senator Tom Coburn placed a hold on the nomination of Army Secretary Pete Geren earlier this year to force the Army to take another look at the M4 and its reliability.
In an April 12 letter to the still unconfirmed Geren, Coburn wrote that "considering the long standing reliability and lethality problems with the M16 design, of which the M4 is based, I am afraid that our troops in combat might not have the best weapon." He insisted the Army conduct a side-by-side test to verify his contention that more reliable designs existed and could be fielded soon.
Despite the 98 percent reliability argument now being pushed by the Army, one congressional staffer familiar with the extreme dust tests is skeptical of the service's conclusions.
"This isn't brain surgery -- a rifle needs to do three things: shoot when you pull the trigger, put bullets where you aim them and deliver enough energy to stop what's attacking you," the staffer told Military.com in an email. "If the M4 can't be depended on to shoot then everything else is irrelevant."
The staffer offered a different perspective of how to view the Army's result. If you look at the numbers, he reasoned, the M4's 882 total stoppages averages out to a jam every 68 rounds. There are about 30 rounds per magazine in the M4.
By comparison, the XM8 jammed once every 472 rounds, the Mk16 every 265 rounds and the 416 every 257 rounds. Army officials contend soldiers rarely fire more than 140 rounds in an engagement.
"These results are stunning, and frankly they are significantly more dramatic than most weapons experts expected," the staffer said.
Army officials say the staffer's comparison is "misleading" since the extreme dust test did not represent a typical combat environment and did not include the regular weapons cleaning soldiers typically perform in the field.
So the Army is sticking by the M4 and has recently signed another contract with manufacturer Colt Defense to outfit several more brigade combat teams with the compact weapon. Service officials say feedback from the field on the M4 has been universally positive -- except for some grumbling about the stopping power of its 5.56mm round. And as long as soldiers take the time to clean their weapons properly, even the "extreme" dust testing showed the weapon performed as advertised.
"The force will tell you the weapon system is reliable, they're confident in it, they understand that the key to making that weapon system effective on the battlefield and killing the enemy is a solid maintenance program and, just as important, is a marksmanship program," said Sgt. Maj. Tom Coleman, sergeant major for PEO Soldier and the Natick Soldier Systems Center. "So, you can't start talking about a weapon system without bringing in all the other pieces that come into play."
That's not enough for some who say the technology is out there to field a better, more reliable rifle to troops in contact now.
"It's time to stop making excuses and just conduct a competition for a new weapon," the congressional staffer said.
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Yeah, that's who we need picking weapons for our soldiers. Politicians, congressional staffers (whatever they are?) and manufacturers.
The soldiers that I deal with daily, tell me they would like a heavier bullet or bigger caliber, but the platform is fine.0 -
Ak would have on stoppage...it melts
GET RID OF THE M160 -
With its tight tolerances, the M-16/M4 is a great starting point for a target rifle. It makes a pretty good police gun, if you don't mind police driving around with that type of weapon in their cars. But it is not a GREAT battle rifle because a GREAT battle rifle is one you can shoot after swimming across a muddy river. And you don't have to clean it every ten minutes to keep it cycling. I'm thinking Mauser, SKS, AK, Garand, M-14, 1903 Springfield, Mosin-Nagant, etc. Maybe FN-FAL. And my favorite of all: M-1 carbine.
Retool the M-16 so it is loosened up to cycle in sand, water, and mud. Chamber it for 7.62x39, and give it a gas piston, and we might have something.0 -
quote:"The M4 carbine is a world-class weapon," said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, the Army's top equipment buyer, in a Dec. 17 briefing at the Pentagon. Soldiers "have high confidence in that weapon, and that high confidence level is justified, in our view, as a result of all test data and all investigations we have made."
He seems to be saying second place is good enough for our guys.0 -
Where's DWS? 0 -
"River Rat
Junior Member
USA
246 Posts
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 6:08:58 PM Show Profile Email Poster Reply with Quote
With its tight tolerances, the M-16/M4 is a great starting point for a target rifle. It makes a pretty good police gun, if you don't mind police driving around with that type of weapon in their cars. But it is not a GREAT battle rifle because a GREAT battle rifle is one you can shoot after swimming across a muddy river. And you don't have to clean it every ten minutes to keep it cycling. I'm thinking Mauser, SKS, AK, Garand, M-14, 1903 Springfield, Mosin-Nagant, etc. Maybe FN-FAL. And my favorite of all: M-1 carbine."0 -
The XM-8 still sucks.
Just a G-36 with a ghey stock and a short barrel making a round criticized for its weakness even weaker0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
"River Rat
Junior Member
USA
246 Posts
Posted - 12/18/2007 : 6:08:58 PM Show Profile Email Poster Reply with Quote
With its tight tolerances, the M-16/M4 is a great starting point for a target rifle. It makes a pretty good police gun, if you don't mind police driving around with that type of weapon in their cars. But it is not a GREAT battle rifle because a GREAT battle rifle is one you can shoot after swimming across a muddy river. And you don't have to clean it every ten minutes to keep it cycling. I'm thinking Mauser, SKS, AK, Garand, M-14, 1903 Springfield, Mosin-Nagant, etc. Maybe FN-FAL. And my favorite of all: M-1 carbine."
Accurate, great cartridge....what's not to like[8D]0 -
Still take an M14 over a space gun anyday[:p] 0 -
Lets see...
863 "minor stoppages"...no such thing as a MINOR STOPPAGE when the enemy is shooting at you and your rifle wont fire
Class one stoppages...requires 10 seconds or less to clear. Hmmm...I dont know...why dont you sit there and count to 10 while I empty an AK47 mag in your general direction and you tell me then that 10 seconds isnt a big deal.
I like the AR platform. I think we should go with a piston rod set up chambered in either the 6.8 Rem, the 260 Rem or back to the 308. The knock down power from any of these rounds will work well in that type of rifle.
Of course that wont happen because it would require all the NATO countries to rechamber their firearms to work with our new cartridge.0 -
quote:Originally posted by medic07
Lets see...
863 "minor stoppages"...no such thing as a MINOR STOPPAGE when the enemy is shooting at you and your rifle wont fire
Class one stoppages...requires 10 seconds or less to clear. Hmmm...I dont know...why dont you sit there and count to 10 while I empty an AK47 mag in your general direction and you tell me then that 10 seconds isnt a big deal.
I like the AR platform. I think we should go with a piston rod set up chambered in either the 6.8 Rem, the 260 Rem or back to the 308. The knock down power from any of these rounds will work well in that type of rifle.
Of course that wont happen because it would require all the NATO countries to rechamber their firearms to work with our new cartridge.
Agreed, but I may only "like it" because I am comfortable and familiar with it. What you said paraphrases what almost every gun knowledgeable soldier has told me.0 -
quote:Though Army testers and engineers are still evaluating the data, officials with the Army's Infantry Center based in Fort Benning, Ga., said they planned to issue new requirements for the standard-issue carbine in about 18 months that could include a wholesale replacement of the M4. But the Army has been resistant to replace the M4, which has been in the Army inventory for over 18 years, until there's enough of a performance leap to justify buying a new carbine.?? they already did put out requirements for a new weapons system, i.e. a platform that could interchange between a carbine, rifle, sniper and SAW. they also said that it had to be provided by an existing, large scale company, no start-ups accepted. I read the whle thing.
unless, they mean to say, that now they're accepting a replacement of just the rifle and it doesn't have to be a whole weapons system. if that's the case, they must be getting antsy.0 -
busch...the XM8 to put it nicely sucked...big time.
They wanted to put all this fancy electronics crap on it (auto ranging optics...air burst grenades...and on and on). Basically they wanted a "smart" weapon system because they were "dumbing down" the soldiers. What I mean is that they really do not teach marksmanship any longer (Marines may be the exception). I know in the AF, we shoot once every two years and that is only 100 rounds in a shortened range. Those of us who shoot alot go nuts with the way they teach these people to shoot.
Anyway...the XM8 came out to be too heavy...to cluttered and just flat out uncomfortable for the soldier. I got to see one prototype at Ft Gordon when we were there for a training exercise...the damn thing had to weight about 12 pounds and was still chambered for the 5.56mm. If I have to lug around 12 pounds of weaponry then give me an M14.0 -
I didn't say anything about the XM8.
and, I think the request came out after apparent failure of the XM8.
btw, if'n ya wanna know just what the guys in the field said about what they got and what they want, read this. I wouldn't entirely agree with the conclusions, but it's something.
http://www.bob-oracle.com/SWATreport.htm0 -
I happen to like my M16a2. Is it perfect? No, but what rifle really is? I carried the A2 in both combat and competition, and have had no real problems that couldn't be directly attributed to user error. The solution is not better weaponry, but bet soldiers\marines\airmen. 0 -
The M4/M16 is a good rifle.sounds like this congressman just wants to be seen doing something for the soldiers, always good press if no babies are around. 0 -
i love when people that are not organic to the end product have total influence over it's design.
all the military has to do is change over the M4s and remaining m16s to gas piston uppers chambered in 6.8SPC
so easy yet their collective heads are so far up their third point of contact that it can and never will happen0 -
I am not organic.
Organic is not something to which I aspire.
Are only organic thingies capable of rational thought ??
An updated M-14 is the proper battle rifle for our forces not consisting of weenies and girly-pies.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
An updated M-14 is the proper battle rifle for our forces not consisting of weenies and girly-pies.
Ah yes, the M14: The shortest-lived standard issue infantry rifle ever to enter U.S. inventory; a sorry afterthought to the M1 whose showing at trials was manipulated so as to outdo the FN-FAL, this needlessly overpowered, uncontrollable in automatic fire, fragile rust bucket POS was quite possibly, next to underwear for the deaf and the artificial appendix, the lamest brain fart ever designed.
BTW, what's a "battle rifle"?0 -
quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
BTW, what's a "battle rifle"?
My mother-in-law.0 -
The problem with the A4 is the same problem the M16 has had for the past 40 odd years. It is a fine rifle, but too complex for utter reliability. Tolerances are too tight, parts too small. What works wonderfully for police, on the target range, etc. is not ideal for combat. Plain and simple. Has the design been greatly improved since introduction? You betcha. But that isn't to say it is perfect- and our boys deserve the best.
I wouldn't say the M14 is the answer either. That gun doesn't share the M16 series' failings- but has other problems.
What we need is a gun as reliable as the AK but as accurate as the M16. Whether that means a totally new design, modifying the M16, or whatever- let's do it and stop bellyaching.
As to the .223 round: it is a fine round for close quarters combat. However it too has its failings. Ideally each cartridge would have the portability of a .22 short and the knock down of a .50 BMG. That isn't going to happen. Interestingly, a lot of countries used cartridges of similar ballistics to the proposed 6.8 WAY back in the late 1800s, early 1900s- 7mm Mauser, 6.5X55, 6.5X52, 6.5X50, etc. etc. They universally dumped them in favor of more powerful replacements (except Sweden).
Simply put, there is no one round that can do everything perfectly. The .308 is great for some applications, the .223 for others- and dare I say, a middle ground would be great. Something no heavier than the .223 (or at least no bulkier) but with more knockdown power at distance. Personally I think that perfection was reached on day one with the 7.92X33. Short round, large diameter bullet, plenty of knock down, not uncontrollable either. Nods for 2nd place to the 7.62X39. The beauty of these rounds is they could be loaded with different bullets for different applications- eg: 150 gr with a stout powder charge for long range, 100 gr for shorter range work, etc.
Whatever. As Yeager says it isn't the weapon (plane in his case) but the guy using it that makes the difference.0 -
I'm still waiting to read field reports on the 6.8mm AR conversions. 0 -
before the .308, the brits wanted to make some kind of .280 the NATO cartridge. how's that for a middle ground between .223 and .308.
what's a .280? 7.1 mm.
what's a 6.8? .268 cal.
the brits weren't too far off, eh?0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
before the .308, the brits wanted to make some kind of .280 the NATO cartridge. how's that for a middle ground between .223 and .308.
what's a .280? 7.1 mm.
what's a 6.8? .268 cal.
the brits weren't too far off, eh?
The M1 was originally a 10-shot .276 caliber.
Go figure.0 -
I think we are overlooking one important fact. The US military has seldom in it's history had just one main battle rifle. In the revolution we had a mix of captured brown besses and charleville muskets. In the War of Northern aggression we had a mix of mix of springfields and enfields to name only two. In the Spanish American war we had both springfield trapdoors and Krag-Jorgenson rifles. In WWI we had 1903 springfields and enfield variants. WWII lemme see 1903s, M1 garand, M1 carbine etc. Korea: the same. Vietnam: M1 garand, M14, M16 and many others. So why on earth should we be limited to M16a2s and M4s? We currently field both M16 series weapons and M14s. Various battlefield applications demand different weapons and we currently are able to make do with the various weaponry we have at our disposal. We never had just one battle rifle, so why start now? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by PATBUZZARD
I think we are overlooking one important fact. The US military has seldom in it's history had just one main battle rifle. In the revolution we had a mix of captured brown besses and charleville muskets. In the War of Northern aggression we had a mix of mix of springfields and enfields to name only two. In the Spanish American war we had both springfield trapdoors and Krag-Jorgenson rifles. In WWI we had 1903 springfields and enfield variants. WWII lemme see 1903s, M1 garand, M1 carbine etc. Korea: the same. Vietnam: M1 garand, M14, M16 and many others. So why on earth should we be limited to M16a2s and M4s? We currently field both M16 series weapons and M14s. Various battlefield applications demand different weapons and we currently are able to make do with the various weaponry we have at our disposal. We never had just one battle rifle, so why start now?
Two points:
1. There is no such thing as a "battle rifle"; and
2. There is only ONE standard service rifle at any one time.
Sorry.0 -
quote:"This isn't brain surgery -- a rifle needs to do three things: shoot when you pull the trigger, put bullets where you aim them and deliver enough energy to stop what's attacking you," the staffer told Military.com in an email. "If the M4 can't be depended on to shoot then everything else is irrelevant."
Yes, put the bullets were you aim them! Not with a damn AK!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G6BpI3xD6h0
Reissue the M14s if you want out troops to have DEPENDABLE battle rifles!
I'm sorry but with over 15,000 rds a piece in my ARs and more than 25,000 through my M4s and I have only had eight stoppages and only one stopped me for more than a few seconds to clear.
I say bring back the M14s and we wont have any problems!0 -
jtmarine0831, that is an interesting link. Do you, or anybody else, know the title of the Discovery show that came from? 0 -
we ain't talking about a nice sunny day at the range with birds chirping, and fresh cut grass and [stuff]. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Blackguns
jtmarine0831, that is an interesting link. Do you, or anybody else, know the title of the Discovery show that came from?
Sorry Blackguns, I'm not sure which episode it came from.
Bucshmaster, I wish I had some pics of my "range" to put up right now. Ain't no fresh-cut grass there, hardly and bright sunny days either cause I shoot when I want not when the weathers nice. Knowing how a weapon(s) perform in all conditions is an essential part of knowing how to use them(in my opinion). I still "care" for my "ladies" just like I did in the Corps. and they don't let me down.0
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