China and the Aircraft Carrier
Looks like they want to join the club.
C&P:
TIANJIN, China - On a windswept pier at the Binhai theme park, tourists board an aged Russian aircraft carrier, the Kiev , and imagine what it would be like if China had such a symbol of maritime might.
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Along dimly lit passageways, they peer into compartments to see mannequins of Russian sailors loading rockets into firing tubes, manning radars and even entering a sauna.
On deck, simulated jet fighters rest on the rolling tarmac along a runway.
China remains the only major global power without aircraft carriers in its fleet. For years, military leaders have weighed the pride that such vessels would bring the nation with the costs and complexity of operating the giant ships, continually postponing a decision. But now public sentiment is running strongly in favor of launching a program to build aircraft carriers, and some military experts say construction may be inevitable.
"Actually it has almost been decided that the Chinese navy will build carriers," said Xu Guangyu, an analyst and the director of the government-backed China Arms Control and Disarmament Association .
China's military has grown at double-digit rates for nearly two decades and now wields supersonic missiles and nuclear submarines. When it comes to aircraft carriers, though, it's not so much military leaders voicing an operational need as an impatient public demanding construction, experts said.
"There's a feeling among the Chinese public that their nation is a great power, and great powers have aircraft carriers," said Andrew S. Erickson , a civilian scholar at the China Maritime Studies Institute of the Naval War College in Rhode Island . "We've seen grass-roots campaigns that say, 'Everyone contribute some money so we can have an aircraft carrier.' "
Top People's Liberation Army officers voiced interest in building aircraft carriers to visiting senior U.S. military commanders this year, peppering them with questions.
"We said to them, essentially, 'Knock yourselves out. It ain't as easy as it looks,' " Adm. Timothy J. Keating , the head of the U.S. Pacific Command, said in July. "They acknowledged that and said, 'We reserve the right to develop aircraft carriers if we so choose.' They said to us there is no more prominent and visible signal of a nation's resolve and might than an aircraft carrier coming into a port."
China already has three decommissioned aircraft carriers, all bought from Russia . Military engineers dissected two to see how they worked, then moored them as tourist attractions. The third, the Varyag, is at a secret military base in Dalian , on the Yellow Sea.
For an entry fee of about $14.70 , tourists can board the Kiev , docked at the Binhai district near Tianjin , 100 miles southeast of Beijing , and listen to tour guides walk their way through the ship's bowels. Each deck has souvenir stands.
A second Russian aircraft carrier, the Minsk , is docked in Shenzhen , the booming port city near Hong Kong , where tourists get a strong sales pitch aboard.
"In the middle of the Minsk was this kind of shrine to the history of aircraft carriers," recalled Richard Fisher , a U.S.-based specialist on the Chinese military who visited the Minsk . At the end of the tour was a poster display "declaring China should have carriers, too."
The U.S. Navy has 12 active aircraft carriers, nine of them Nimitz-class nuclear carriers. At least eight other countries have one or two aircraft carriers, including India and Thailand .
China's rival, Japan , launched a helicopter-carrying destroyer, essentially a mini-carrier, in late August that's capable of carrying 11 helicopters.
Experts say a host of problems awaits China in mastering the technique of bringing in jet fighters with heavy landing gear and building the catapults and large elevators needed in aircraft carriers. Pilots often are killed and aircraft lost during training.
Opponents within China's military argue that submarines and mines can make carriers vulnerable, turning them into virtual "floating coffins." They say carrier deployment would alarm China's neighbors and alter the strategic equation in East Asia .
Aircraft carriers undoubtedly would help China project its naval power further around the globe, protecting oil shipments and commerce and boosting national pride.
"Building aircraft carriers can raise our national confidence," Xu said. "A country's naval force should be commensurate with its economic power and national defense capacity."
Xu added, however, that building carriers would have "more political meaning than military meaning."
A turning point came with a devastating tsunami in 2004, when the U.S. carrier Abraham Lincoln sailed quickly to Indonesia , providing crucial relief. China saw that carriers could play a valuable diplomatic and humanitarian role.
Erickson, the Naval War College expert, said China's military leaders might opt for smaller ships with deck-top platforms in the future.
"It's not Nimitz-class or nothing," Erickson said, referring to the huge U.S. carriers. "I think we can expect that China may experiment with different types of platforms."
Meanwhile, mystery surrounds the Varyag. The huge ship was only 70 percent built- still without engines or rudders- when China bought it for $20 million , far more than its scrap value. The vessel was towed from the Ukraine around the Cape of Good Hope, arriving in Dalian early in 2002. Some foreign experts say China is restoring the flight deck.
"I . . . believe the Varyag will serve as a transitional platform to train pilots and to perfect doctrine- both how to use a carrier and how to sink one," said Fisher, who's the vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center in Alexandria, Va .
A Hong Kong -based publication, Kanwa Asian Defence, reported in September that some Chinese-built J-10 fighters now carry tail hooks needed for carrier landings.
Kanwa said China would wait until the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games had passed to announce its plans to build aircraft carriers "due to concerns over its international image."
Xu said China shouldn't worry about others misconstruing its intentions.
"Time will dispel this misunderstanding and prove that China never intends to be a world cop and 'big brother,' " Xu said.
C&P:
TIANJIN, China - On a windswept pier at the Binhai theme park, tourists board an aged Russian aircraft carrier, the Kiev , and imagine what it would be like if China had such a symbol of maritime might.
ADVERTISEMENT
Along dimly lit passageways, they peer into compartments to see mannequins of Russian sailors loading rockets into firing tubes, manning radars and even entering a sauna.
On deck, simulated jet fighters rest on the rolling tarmac along a runway.
China remains the only major global power without aircraft carriers in its fleet. For years, military leaders have weighed the pride that such vessels would bring the nation with the costs and complexity of operating the giant ships, continually postponing a decision. But now public sentiment is running strongly in favor of launching a program to build aircraft carriers, and some military experts say construction may be inevitable.
"Actually it has almost been decided that the Chinese navy will build carriers," said Xu Guangyu, an analyst and the director of the government-backed China Arms Control and Disarmament Association .
China's military has grown at double-digit rates for nearly two decades and now wields supersonic missiles and nuclear submarines. When it comes to aircraft carriers, though, it's not so much military leaders voicing an operational need as an impatient public demanding construction, experts said.
"There's a feeling among the Chinese public that their nation is a great power, and great powers have aircraft carriers," said Andrew S. Erickson , a civilian scholar at the China Maritime Studies Institute of the Naval War College in Rhode Island . "We've seen grass-roots campaigns that say, 'Everyone contribute some money so we can have an aircraft carrier.' "
Top People's Liberation Army officers voiced interest in building aircraft carriers to visiting senior U.S. military commanders this year, peppering them with questions.
"We said to them, essentially, 'Knock yourselves out. It ain't as easy as it looks,' " Adm. Timothy J. Keating , the head of the U.S. Pacific Command, said in July. "They acknowledged that and said, 'We reserve the right to develop aircraft carriers if we so choose.' They said to us there is no more prominent and visible signal of a nation's resolve and might than an aircraft carrier coming into a port."
China already has three decommissioned aircraft carriers, all bought from Russia . Military engineers dissected two to see how they worked, then moored them as tourist attractions. The third, the Varyag, is at a secret military base in Dalian , on the Yellow Sea.
For an entry fee of about $14.70 , tourists can board the Kiev , docked at the Binhai district near Tianjin , 100 miles southeast of Beijing , and listen to tour guides walk their way through the ship's bowels. Each deck has souvenir stands.
A second Russian aircraft carrier, the Minsk , is docked in Shenzhen , the booming port city near Hong Kong , where tourists get a strong sales pitch aboard.
"In the middle of the Minsk was this kind of shrine to the history of aircraft carriers," recalled Richard Fisher , a U.S.-based specialist on the Chinese military who visited the Minsk . At the end of the tour was a poster display "declaring China should have carriers, too."
The U.S. Navy has 12 active aircraft carriers, nine of them Nimitz-class nuclear carriers. At least eight other countries have one or two aircraft carriers, including India and Thailand .
China's rival, Japan , launched a helicopter-carrying destroyer, essentially a mini-carrier, in late August that's capable of carrying 11 helicopters.
Experts say a host of problems awaits China in mastering the technique of bringing in jet fighters with heavy landing gear and building the catapults and large elevators needed in aircraft carriers. Pilots often are killed and aircraft lost during training.
Opponents within China's military argue that submarines and mines can make carriers vulnerable, turning them into virtual "floating coffins." They say carrier deployment would alarm China's neighbors and alter the strategic equation in East Asia .
Aircraft carriers undoubtedly would help China project its naval power further around the globe, protecting oil shipments and commerce and boosting national pride.
"Building aircraft carriers can raise our national confidence," Xu said. "A country's naval force should be commensurate with its economic power and national defense capacity."
Xu added, however, that building carriers would have "more political meaning than military meaning."
A turning point came with a devastating tsunami in 2004, when the U.S. carrier Abraham Lincoln sailed quickly to Indonesia , providing crucial relief. China saw that carriers could play a valuable diplomatic and humanitarian role.
Erickson, the Naval War College expert, said China's military leaders might opt for smaller ships with deck-top platforms in the future.
"It's not Nimitz-class or nothing," Erickson said, referring to the huge U.S. carriers. "I think we can expect that China may experiment with different types of platforms."
Meanwhile, mystery surrounds the Varyag. The huge ship was only 70 percent built- still without engines or rudders- when China bought it for $20 million , far more than its scrap value. The vessel was towed from the Ukraine around the Cape of Good Hope, arriving in Dalian early in 2002. Some foreign experts say China is restoring the flight deck.
"I . . . believe the Varyag will serve as a transitional platform to train pilots and to perfect doctrine- both how to use a carrier and how to sink one," said Fisher, who's the vice president of the International Assessment and Strategy Center in Alexandria, Va .
A Hong Kong -based publication, Kanwa Asian Defence, reported in September that some Chinese-built J-10 fighters now carry tail hooks needed for carrier landings.
Kanwa said China would wait until the 2008 Beijing Olympic Games had passed to announce its plans to build aircraft carriers "due to concerns over its international image."
Xu said China shouldn't worry about others misconstruing its intentions.
"Time will dispel this misunderstanding and prove that China never intends to be a world cop and 'big brother,' " Xu said.
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In the First War the British adn German publics were raising heck to build more battelships. The cry of "we want eight and we won't wait" was shouted by masses in Trafalgar Square. They were referring to battleships/super dreadnoughts. This kind of nationalism and competitive arms race led to the First World War.
You think the world is heading down that road again??[:0]0 -
Dutchman,
I think China is hoping we'll spend ourselves into oblivion before it even gets close.
Think about it: They hint they might be on the cusp of launching their own carrier/s, what do you think they think we're gonna do? Admirals are gonna go running to Congress hollering for more ships and the public will holler for more ships in the face of the "rising Chicom threat" and Congress and the White House will be all too happy to construct a few more battle groups to satisfy the squealing of the military establishment.
And when we've paid one too many bills with money we don't have, our economy is going to tank and China will have won without firing a shot.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
Dutchman,
I think China is hoping we'll spend ourselves into oblivion before it even gets close.
Think about it: They hint they might be on the cusp of launching their own carrier/s, what do you think they think we're gonna do? Admirals are gonna go running to Congress hollering for more ships and the public will holler for more ships in the face of the "rising Chicom threat" and Congress and the White House will be all too happy to construct a few more battle groups to satisfy the squealing of the military establishment.
And when we've paid one too many bills with money we don't have, our economy is going to tank and China will have won without firing a shot.
Kinda like what we did to the USSR.0 -
You got it man...except the Chinese have a cash economy (thanks to greedy CEOS/stockholders/politicians) and the USSR did not!
quote:Originally posted by peon
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
Dutchman,
I think China is hoping we'll spend ourselves into oblivion before it even gets close.
Think about it: They hint they might be on the cusp of launching their own carrier/s, what do you think they think we're gonna do? Admirals are gonna go running to Congress hollering for more ships and the public will holler for more ships in the face of the "rising Chicom threat" and Congress and the White House will be all too happy to construct a few more battle groups to satisfy the squealing of the military establishment.
And when we've paid one too many bills with money we don't have, our economy is going to tank and China will have won without firing a shot.
Kinda like what we did to the USSR.0 -
LOL ... nations that stand still and block their neighbor's 'rolling technology'
will not block it - they'll be run over by it. ie. Europe vs Nazi Germany in the
1930's ... by 1940 they were run over by it!
China is no exception - she understands that, as well as we do.
I'd say - if things continue to disintegrate as quickly as they are around here
time's also on China's side.0 -
This may be more akin to the battleship construction post WW 2.
Japan had the Yamato, Germany the Bismark, they went for our Battleships during pearl harbor.
What ships helped win the war the most and sank the battleships? the aircraft carrier. The battleship had become obsolete.
Now many people talk about how vunerable our carriers are to subs, or anti-ship missiles fired from far away.
There are those who argue Aircraft carriers would be obsolete in a full scale war. They are useable only to enforce your presence in a limited radius in smaller less equipped countries.
Like battleships of old landing troops and providing artillery to take a port and open it to trade.
Given our F-35 has a VToL capability- and our smaller faster X ships which are stealthy and fast, and the size of our subs.
Maybe the future is smalled ships and subs carrying only a few VToL fighters, not some big vunerable carrier that can't maneuver.
Heck, even the japs in WWII were able to build sub aircraft carriers.0 -
That's just what we need, china with a carrier. Sounds like they are just trying to stir some stuff and doing a fine job at it as well[:(] 0 -
Any country can build an aircraft carrier. The Hard part is building one over night that functions.[:o)] 0 -
ya, but their aircraft carriers will have better Feng Shui. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
ya, but their aircraft carriers will have better Feng Shui.
[:D][:D][:D][:D]ROFLMAO0 -
Building an aircraft carrier is one thing......protecting it is another. 0 -
figured out why china is advancing on the world stage so fast....they are getting the lead out 0 -
quote:Originally posted by spasmcreek
figured out why china is advancing on the world stage so fast....they are getting the lead out
Thanks to companies like WalMart.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Rack Ops
Building an aircraft carrier is one thing......protecting it is another.
Which is another reason why I think they're just baiting us with the quote:threat of building their own. After all, why build a carrier and its attendant battle group only to have it outnumbered 12+ to 1 when you can goad the other guy into outnumbering you 15+ to zero and then watch him collapse into economic ruin because of it?0 -
quote:Congress and the White House will be all too happy to construct a few more battle groups to satisfy the squealing of the military establishment.
THIS white house?
Maybe.
THIS congress??
Not a chance in hades this soft on defense congress would spend a dime on any kind of build up.
IMHO0 -
Building a carrier shouldn't be that hard as any model company can supply the blueprints. Operating it take a great toll in men and material. It took the U.S. Navy a couple of decades to get it down. Look at how long it took the Soviet Union to learn how to UNREP (UNderway REPlenishment) after watching us for do it for forty years.
From what I've seen of all the Chinese stuff being recalled here, their equipment will really have to be improved. Just making tires for the jets that are able to bounce along the flightdeck will be a major step forward. How many tailhooks will get ripped off, or aircraft getting dumped in the drink by a cold cat?
We've got awhile before they will be a serious threat with a carrier. Their ASW capibility isn't that great either.[;)]0 -
The only country that operates true carriers is the US. A few other countries operate VSTOL carriers with very small, inferior air wings. The French Charles De Gaulle is a disaster, as were the Russian attempts to build carriers. The technology that goes into building a CTOL carrier is far beyond what most people think, and it is well classified. The PRC cannot even build decent DDGs, much less a CV. 
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But do they have a Space Navy? 0 -
I think we have to blame ourselves. No body forces us to buy chinese goods. Not CEOs not wal-mart. They are just reacting to our buying habits.
I say we not buy Chinese made toys this year. That will send a clear message. I doubt most of us would have the resolve to stick to it.0 -
They will do what they do best. Use technology developed by others. China is a rising economic power because we provide them with the technology, raw materials and market. Take away any one of those three and you diminish their impact. However this may be a case of "keeping your friends close and your enemies closer". 0 -
p3skyking said..."It took the U.S. Navy a couple of decades to get it down."
The Chinese will visit Hillery in the White house. Every one will smile. Soon after Chinese will have several miraculous breakthroughs in technology related to aircraft carriers.[:(!]0 -
As I've asked, why would China even want them? It would be more of a drain on resources than it would be worth. 0 -
China has deadlier ships than aircraft carriers.
What if 20 Chinese cargo ships pulled into port in LA and proceeded to launch missiles all over the US?
Why be stupid with big flagships when they already have ships in every port on Earth?
They could easily convert them to launch missiles in suicidal attacks. By the time someone figures it out and strikes them....they would be ghost ships.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Old Fool
The only country that operates true carriers is the US. A few other countries operate VSTOL carriers with very small, inferior air wings. The French Charles De Gaulle is a disaster, as were the Russian attempts to build carriers. The technology that goes into building a CTOL carrier is far beyond what most people think, and it is well classified. The PRC cannot even build decent DDGs, much less a CV.
AMEN TO THAT!0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
As I've asked, why would China even want them? It would be more of a drain on resources than it would be worth.
China historically has had a litoral navy suited best for self defense purposes. The Chinese also have never used their armed forces overtly except for clearly defined self protection. The only exception was a disasterous invasion in support of their North Korean ally, and the foray into Tibet that only reinforced their claim to that territory. I'm no expert, but I believe China never has had any modern expansionist ambitions.
Even their 1960's engagement with India and the Soviet Union was over border issues.
Today, China's growth is tied to energy imports, and they know they have to secure and protect their oil supply lines, oil sources, and petro-political ambitions. This will be by military means if a world situation threatens their free-market energy sources. This force projection would have to include a carrier battle group of some sort. Right now, the only fully integrated and battle tested carrier battle group is ours and we have 12 of them. I'd say we have a pretty good advantage.
The lack of a hardy domestic oil source is their Achilles heel. They know it very well. Building a carrier and supporting force is hardly a provocative move that we should consider a national threat at this time. Our submarines are still generations beyound theirs, our capability to sink a Chinese carrier is awesome, and our ASW measures and those of our most trusted allies are without equal.
I would hate to be the first ChiCom naval pilot to have to take off from a rolling and pitching deck of a brand-new Chinese Aircraft carrier as a test flight....Just so show some nationalistic Admirals the relevence of naval force projection.
Even worse, to land at night during black-out conditions with all those brand new freshly trained deckhand conscripts trying to hold the first arresting wire by hand. [xx(]0
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