Chinese sub pops up in US Navy exercise...
Chinese sub pops up in middle of U.S. Navy exercise, leaving military chiefs red-faced
By MATTHEW HICKLEY -
Last updated at 00:13am on 10th November 2007
When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.
At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.
That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.
The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.
One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.
The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.
And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.
According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.
It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.
Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".
The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.
Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.
Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.
He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.
"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."
In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.
By MATTHEW HICKLEY -
Last updated at 00:13am on 10th November 2007
When the U.S. Navy deploys a battle fleet on exercises, it takes the security of its aircraft carriers very seriously indeed.
At least a dozen warships provide a physical guard while the technical wizardry of the world's only military superpower offers an invisible shield to detect and deter any intruders.
That is the theory. Or, rather, was the theory.
American military chiefs have been left dumbstruck by an undetected Chinese submarine popping up at the heart of a recent Pacific exercise and close to the vast U.S.S. Kitty Hawk - a 1,000ft supercarrier with 4,500 personnel on board.
By the time it surfaced the 160ft Song Class diesel-electric attack submarine is understood to have sailed within viable range for launching torpedoes or missiles at the carrier.
According to senior Nato officials the incident caused consternation in the U.S. Navy.
The Americans had no idea China's fast-growing submarine fleet had reached such a level of sophistication, or that it posed such a threat.
One Nato figure said the effect was "as big a shock as the Russians launching Sputnik" - a reference to the Soviet Union's first orbiting satellite in 1957 which marked the start of the space age.
The incident, which took place in the ocean between southern Japan and Taiwan, is a major embarrassment for the Pentagon.
The lone Chinese vessel slipped past at least a dozen other American warships which were supposed to protect the carrier from hostile aircraft or submarines.
And the rest of the costly defensive screen, which usually includes at least two U.S. submarines, was also apparently unable to detect it.
According to the Nato source, the encounter has forced a serious re-think of American and Nato naval strategy as commanders reconsider the level of threat from potentially hostile Chinese submarines.
It also led to tense diplomatic exchanges, with shaken American diplomats demanding to know why the submarine was "shadowing" the U.S. fleet while Beijing pleaded ignorance and dismissed the affair as coincidence.
Analysts believe Beijing was sending a message to America and the West demonstrating its rapidly-growing military capability to threaten foreign powers which try to interfere in its "backyard".
The People's Liberation Army Navy's submarine fleet includes at least two nuclear-missile launching vessels.
Its 13 Song Class submarines are extremely quiet and difficult to detect when running on electric motors.
Commodore Stephen Saunders, editor of Jane's Fighting Ships, and a former Royal Navy anti-submarine specialist, said the U.S. had paid relatively little attention to this form of warfare since the end of the Cold War.
He said: "It was certainly a wake-up call for the Americans.
"It would tie in with what we see the Chinese trying to do, which appears to be to deter the Americans from interfering or operating in their backyard, particularly in relation to Taiwan."
In January China carried a successful missile test, shooting down a satellite in orbit for the first time.
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Why would such a feat be that hard? Track path of fleet, plot intercept course outside of detection range, proceed to intercept point, quietly lay on bottom and wait, rise to surface as fleet passes overhead. 0 -
I got a good friend who got out of the Navy a couple years ago. He was in subs.
I emailed him this and his comments were as follows:
"you guys have no idea" and "don't believe anything you read about subs because the propaganda is several layers deep from both sides"
He generally won't talk about sub capabilities at all and refused to post his comments here. They take the sub stuff very serious.0 -
Was it the Chi-coms that we were talk about that had silent diesel sub technology a few months ago? Maybe it was the French or heck Swiss, but I remember this subject about "advanced" diesel sub technology was discussed here at GB. 0 -
I believe the Swedes are the ones you're thinking about. A very advanced diesel boat with near-nuke boat capability.
But "near" doesn't make it so! Ours is a blue water fleet, not a coastal navy. Any boat that has to surface is vulnerable in the extreme in blue water.
I'd be VERY uncomfortable driving one of our carriers around coastal waters anywhere near an enemy equipped with diesel boats. Even older boats are silent and therefor dangerous.0 -
This is for Bobski:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2007-10-25-navy-nuclear-sub_N.htm?csp=15
In the US military now with so few people and all the military closures...they are settling with what would have been unacceptable for commanders 10 years ago.
I was denied Convalescent Leave to get surgery to fix my back I broke at work....thanks to my stupid CO.....I was retired at 12 years. Stupid CO's. Ain't my money, it's yours.0 -
Not to mention the fact that the USS Kittyhawk was refitted in the 90's for dedication to anti-submarine warfare. The only way the Chinks or anyone else could sneak up on that vessel would be in their own minds.
Warpig, you are absolutely correct. Pop retired an E-9 from the US Navy after 30 years as a submariner. He spent most of that time on a boomer playing cat-and-mouse with Soviet vessels off the coast of Europe. He once told me that civilians have absolutely no idea what the Navy is capable of, and that any submarine that came within 20 miles of a US carrier group would be doing its shadowing with a US attack boat about 100 yards behind it, and several aircraft circling overhead.0 -
You do know the KittyKawk is using it's last load of fuel this year right?
She's going to get sold as scrap metal to China next year.0 -
That's right, the Kittyhawk will be decommissioned next year to be replaced by the USS George Washington. Since it was built in 1961, it should fit right into the Chinese navy with all those 50-year-old Soviet dinosaurs. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by KSUmarksman
or the USN pretended to be caught off guard, knowing that the media would tell the world and that the Chinese would believe it
thats what i was thinking...and hoping0 -
Being that we have exported all of our manufacturing, technology, and inovation to China, I don't see this as any suprize. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by nord
I believe the Swedes are the ones you're thinking about. A very advanced diesel boat with near-nuke boat capability.
But "near" doesn't make it so! Ours is a blue water fleet, not a coastal navy. Any boat that has to surface is vulnerable in the extreme in blue water.
I'd be VERY uncomfortable driving one of our carriers around coastal waters anywhere near an enemy equipped with diesel boats. Even older boats are silent and therefor dangerous.
So would our navy be more vulnerable in a coastal situation near Taiwan ?
Or to put it another way, Would our superior navy's advantage be limited in a coastal conflict half way around the world?0 -
quote:Originally posted by drobs
Being that we have exported all of our manufacturing, technology, and inovation to China, I don't see this as any suprize.
We handed him a loaded gun and now we're shocked that he's armed.0 -
Most of our present Navy ships are constructed with an eye toward "stand-Off" battle conditions - a few miles out. There WAS an emerging consensus that we needed to have a somewhat more "Littoral" (means in shallow waters near shore or uprivers) force balance...
Congress just deep-sixed that for the foreseeable future.
We had some good designs and Proof-of-Concept vessels, already in proving trials. Some of the programs can go "slow-bell" for a while, but some of the newer and more advanced designs and programs will probably go dark.0 -
I was in the US Navy Nuclear Power program for five years, and I agree that there are many layers to get to the facts as to what happened. Bottom line ... I'm still very confident in our Navy and don't lose too much sleep about the Chinese Navy! 0 -
I was taking a personal tour of the XM1-Abraham tank plant with the plant manager(many years ago) when I saw a group of slant eyes touring and taking notes and pictures. This was a top secret facility and here we were allowing a foreign power group complete access. I wasn't supposed to be in there either but this really pixxxx me off. It seems that we cause our own problems that we pay for latter. How stupid can our government be. I sure hope that we never go to it with the Chinese as I don't think we can survive. They are not afraid of us at all and are more than willing to make ultimate sacrifices that we will not. They already have us on our knees economically. Their mentality disciplines are far superior to any we could ever dream of. Their human resources are endless compared to ours. They can flood our country with their SKS rifles and ammo by the millions and this only shows me that they aren't afraid and that they certainly have something bigger than small arms fire to deal with us. We better get smart and play the game with them with a long term plan to get along with them but not trust them for one split second. If not, I think we will feel the shudder and see the flash and that will be the end of it. owen219 0
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