Rights/Privilege..DWS ? Anyone ?
A bit of masochism has struck me.
I want a disertation on "If Rights don't come from God..Where EXACTLY do they spring from ?"
Given that there is no God..then are Rights merely man-made..and subject to revision at the whim of the strongest man around ?
I wish no argument of God/no God..just an attempt to grasp understanding of the issue.
I want a disertation on "If Rights don't come from God..Where EXACTLY do they spring from ?"
Given that there is no God..then are Rights merely man-made..and subject to revision at the whim of the strongest man around ?
I wish no argument of God/no God..just an attempt to grasp understanding of the issue.
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With the assumption of no God, you are correct in your conjecture that might makes right (in cruder terms than you use). 0 -
I would say that it is the innate sense of "self" that leads one to feel that he " deserves" certain basic rights. That aspect of self-awareness has been the bain of all tynnanical governments since the dawn of civilization. Getting rid of the educated and the educators is usually the first step taken to remove a sense of "rights" from the populace. Since that hasn't worked I tend to see this sense of self-value as innate rather than learned. Claiming it is a God -given right is simply a way of making it a right above reproach by any government of man. For all practical purposes this is in fact true, since you would have to kill everyone to remove the sense of entitlement from the human psyche. 0 -
without a compass, man tends to do whats 'right' in his own eyes.
problem is, whos to say that ones rights are righter than someones elses.
thus, anything man made is flawed.
just like man made machinery that will eventually fail, so will mans ideals.
the only way to avoid this dead end is to be inspired and to be lead and directed by someone who is greater than man.
and too, as a friend may i say, be careful of the trap of deep philosophical contemplation. its one of those things that no matter how hard you try, youll never get a solid answer. and even if you eventually did, someone elses 'rights' or opinions will trump it.[;)]
humanizm is a failed religion.0 -
As we grow from young to old the people who influence us, good or bad give us the sense of whats right and wrong. If you have people around you that are strong morally then that is generally the moral compass you come away with.
We feel from what we do day to day that we "ought to have the right" to do this or that, and yes you are right, until someone bigger or badder size-wise, or authority-wise tells us different we continue in the belief that we have that right.0 -
i refer you to my signature, the words of the Anarchist Folk singer/Hobo/korean war vet U. Utah Philips 0 -
2500 years ago, a Greek named Thrasymachus said it best: "Right is nothing but the interest of the stronger." Sadly, this is an empirical fact. It also explains why morality and social norms are likewise relative to time and place. 0 -
It doesn't boil down to the whims of the strongest - rights are eliminated not by force of arms, but by the apathy of those unwilling to fight for them. 0 -
Then, indeed...we are lost. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
2500 years ago, a Greek named Thrasymachus said it best: "Right is nothing but the interest of the stronger." Sadly, this is an empirical fact. It also explains why morality and social norms are likewise relative to time and place.
I think the poster is referring to "Rights" as defined by the constitution as opposed to right vs. wrong as it appears Thrasymachus was dealing with.0 -
Two wrongs don't make a right but three lefts do. Don 0 -
In the assumption of no God, all ideas, principles, and morals -- the basic fabric of our rights -- are the product of human reasoning. In that scenario, even principles accepted over the course of many centuries, and in some cases thousands of years, are fair game for anyone able to rationalize and dictate that others' "rights" are irrelevant, the rules don't apply to him, or that "times have changed" and a new set of values, rules, and rights (or the lack thereof) is necessary. What's convenient for the current powers-that-be trumps common sense, any popularly-accepted concept of what's right and wrong, and, yes, any and all "rights" which in their being exercised -- or even accepted -- interfere with the process of "sensible" governing.
I may be straying outside the stated bounds of what you asked, so, in short -- absent God, our rights originate in the intellect, conscience, and perhaps tolerance of our fellow human beings. And, if that's the case, then, no pun intended -- God help us all.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bigdaddyjunior
I think the poster is referring to "Rights" as defined by the constitution as opposed to right vs. wrong as it appears Thrasymachus was dealing with.
Exactly to the point. "Rights" can be given by a Constitution or a Manifesto. Accident of birth decides what rights you will have. And those who hold the power decide those rights-- for everybody.0 -
Rights are agreed to by society. The use of a faith-based measurement for making laws is only one way cultures determine lawful and unlawful behavior. Throughout history, regardless of the religious beliefs of the various cultures found around the world, some laws remain fairly constant. Murder, mayhem and theft are pretty much always illegal, even in those cultures that are not Christian and those that predate Christianity.
The closest thing I know of to atheistic societies would be the Soviet Union and China under Marxist Communist rule and yet even these countries with an official declaration that there is no deity still enforced laws similar to those in countries where religion was freely practiced.
Yes, most of the Founders were men of faith and used their religious beliefs as a basis for creating laws, but what they devised was essentially the same as what would come from a Pagan or atheistic culture.
I believe rights are not a gift from God or anyone else. Rights are demanded and won. Notice how easily they are taken away from us. If rights are a divine gift how can they be so readily lost?
Some people think health care is a right. Others do not agree. Who is right? We'll see.0 -
quote:Originally posted by SaxonPig
Rights are agreed to by society. The use of a faith-based measurement for making laws is only one way cultures determine lawful and unlawful behavior. Throughout history, regardless of the religious beliefs of the various cultures found around the world, some laws remain fairly constant. Murder, mayhem and theft are pretty much always illegal, even in those cultures that are not Christian and those that predate Christianity.
The closest thing I know of to atheistic societies would be the Soviet Union and China under Marxist Communist rule and yet even these countries with an official declaration that there is no deity still enforced laws similar to those in countries where religion was freely practiced.
Yes, most of the Founders were men of faith and used their religious beliefs as a basis for creating laws, but what they devised was essentially the same as what would come from a Pagan or atheistic culture.
I believe rights are not a gift from God or anyone else. Rights are demanded and won. Notice how easily they are taken away from us. If rights are a divine gift how can they be so readily lost?
Some people think health care is a right. Others do not agree. Who is right? We'll see.
I think you nailed it pretty close. My own post, to the effect that our rights had better NOT derive from the thinking of men, was based largely on the fact that I'm tired and, when I get tired, I get disgusted and cynical. The idea that our rights are ours to demand and deserve actually perks me up some. Thanks.0 -
quote:Originally posted by SaxonPig
Rights are agreed to by society.
No, rights are meted out by those with the power to do so, and this whether society agrees with those rights either in kind or degree, or not. Obviously, rights that are to one person "inalienable" and "self-evident" are to another "pure ca-ca"; and the person holding the power decides which for everybody.0 -
This discussion proceeds pretty much as I finally tumbled to after a half-century..I am pretty slow, sometimes.
The Law of the Jungle.
That is all it amounts to.
Absent a 'Creator'..the can be no Rights at all. Man makes then..man breaks them when a stronger one comes along.
I needed to understand this completely..the mindset of those that view man as the beginning...and the end.
That, folks, is what is behind the drive to end the 'theory' of a Divine Being..because there can be NO 'unalienable Rights absent that.
That makes it impossible for a large portion of the population to defend "Rights"..because 'Rights' are man-made...and man changed.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
This discussion proceeds pretty much as I finally tumbled to after a half-century..I am pretty slow, sometimes.
The Law of the Jungle.
That is all it amounts to.
Absent a 'Creator'..the can be no Rights at all. Man makes then..man breaks them when a stronger one comes along.
I needed to understand this completely..the mindset of those that view man as the beginning...and the end.
That, folks, is what is behind the drive to end the 'theory' of a Divine Being..because there can be NO 'unalienable Rights absent that.
That makes it impossible for a large portion of the population to defend "Rights"..because 'Rights' are man-made...and man changed.
I suppose there are some here who believe that you have something other than your own agenda in mind, and that you really have any interest at all in what the Constitution protects.
Your posts show you don't care at all for the protections included, only the control you may exert.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
The Law of the Jungle. That is all it amounts to.
No, it is far more insidious than that. There is a horrible justice to "The Law Of The Jungle"; but at least there is no pretense, unlike with man and his laws. Consider even H.R. 2640:
The point is not whether it will do some good; the point is that it is exclusively directed at gun ownership. Why? Why are there not similar acts prohibiting crazy people from operating motor vehicles? Having children? Buying lye or baseball bats? Nope, only guns. Again, why? And it is precisely the NRA's failure to grasp this point that illustrates just how myopic and ineffectual they have become.
Face it, we're a lot better off with our RKBA than 99% of the world's countries. But that is hardly the point now, is it? The point is that in the last 40 years we have given up more of our RKBA than in all of the preceding 200. And that is why man's laws are so insidious.
Like getting groped and taking your shoes off at the airport? No? Some friggin' patriot you are.0 -
quote:There is a horrible justice to "The Law Of The Jungle"; but at least there is no pretense, unlike with man and his laws. Consider even H.R. 2640:
When one strips away the emotion of dog eat dog..the facts are as you say.
Where did you come by your cynicism ? Has the thought of at least giving 'lip service' to the idea of a supreme being entered your mind..as a springboard to wade into the sea of ugly we swim in ? Is there nothing left to believe in ?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
quote:There is a horrible justice to "The Law Of The Jungle"; but at least there is no pretense, unlike with man and his laws. Consider even H.R. 2640:
When one strips away the emotion of dog eat dog..the facts are as you say.
Where did you come by your cynicism ? Has the thought of at least giving 'lip service' to the idea of a supreme being entered your mind..as a springboard to wade into the sea of ugly we swim in ? Is there nothing left to believe in ?
DWS has expressed his opinion on that topic many times here on this forum, but you'd have to be a bit less self centered to have noticed.
You didn't.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
Is there nothing left to believe in ?
You can believe in whatever you like. But as regards the point, what possible difference does it make? A suicide bomber can (and does) believe in whatever he likes as well, as can (and does) a Buddhist and a Scientologist. Now what? The problem is that you cannot adjudicate privileged communications from a Creator. If you think otherwise, you need only say how. And so for thousands of years we have had Cardinals and Popes and Ayatollahs and Presidents from Texas saying a Creator speaks to them, with no rational means to assess the truth of the matter.
But, by all means, believe in whatever you like. Maybe a Creator will repeal the 1968 Gun Control Act.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
It doesn't boil down to the whims of the strongest - rights are eliminated not by force of arms, but by the apathy of those unwilling to fight for them.
Amen EMM! Preach it brother!...and I hope you are standing next to me when the day comes.0 -
quote:Maybe a Creator will repeal the 1968 Gun Control Act.
Let's hope He does...perhaps He'll enable His people and inspire them to demand their rights back.0 -
What then did the Founders of this country believe in ? They didn't expect the Creator to stop the British at the bridge..they took up Arms and did the stopping themslves.
I don't, as stated, wish to turn this into another God/no God argument.
There HAS to be a basis for the Rights of the little people to be secure from the depravities of the rich and/or powerful.
What is the human failing that dumbly bows when asked to drop ones pants for the cheek inspection at the local airport. One would think that the airlines would be broke the next day..by independent folks registering their displeasure by refusing to fly.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
What then did the Founders of this country believe in ? They didn't expect the Creator to stop the British at the bridge..they took up Arms and did the stopping themslves.
I don't, as stated, wish to turn this into another God/no God argument.
There HAS to be a basis for the Rights of the little people to be secure from the depravities of the rich and/or powerful.
What is the human failing that dumbly bows when asked to drop ones pants for the cheek inspection at the local airport. One would think that the airlines would be broke the next day..by independent folks registering their displeasure by refusing to fly.
...it's all for their own good though...surely you can put up with some inconveniences for your personal security...
..."those who would sacrifice freedom for security deserve neither"0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
What then did the Founders of this country believe in ? They didn't expect the Creator to stop the British at the bridge..they took up Arms and did the stopping themslves.
I don't, as stated, wish to turn this into another God/no God argument.
There HAS to be a basis for the Rights of the little people to be secure from the depravities of the rich and/or powerful.
What is the human failing that dumbly bows when asked to drop ones pants for the cheek inspection at the local airport. One would think that the airlines would be broke the next day..by independent folks registering their displeasure by refusing to fly.
You don't believe in the Constitution at all, so quit pretending.
Your only fixation is with your obsessions, and how you can force them on others.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by Highball
What then did the Founders of this country believe in ? They didn't expect the Creator to stop the British at the bridge..they took up Arms and did the stopping themslves.
I don't, as stated, wish to turn this into another God/no God argument.
There HAS to be a basis for the Rights of the little people to be secure from the depravities of the rich and/or powerful.
What is the human failing that dumbly bows when asked to drop ones pants for the cheek inspection at the local airport. One would think that the airlines would be broke the next day..by independent folks registering their displeasure by refusing to fly.
You don't believe in the Constitution at all, so quit pretending.
Your only fixation is with your obsessions, and how you can force them on others.
Highball hasn't tried to force anything on anybody. All he's done is spoken his piece...trying to educate some folks...there's no forcing in that. As for his patriotism...he's probably one of the most patriotic folks on this board...a true Constitutionalist.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
I don't, as stated, wish to turn this into another God/no God argument.
There HAS to be a basis for the Rights of the little people to be secure from the depravities of the rich and/or powerful.
I have no doubt that you could find a Biblical hermeneuticist who can cite chapter and verse where the Creator says He favors unregistered ownership of machineguns and mandatory concealed carry. Such is the magic of interpretation in favor of a side. And who is to say no? And who is to say yes? That's an easy one: The people in power.0 -
Then I am guessing..not to put words in your mouth, here..but the great shining beacon of Freedom and Rights of America..and Americans..was nothing but a gauzy film of pretense..perhaps from the first day of said 'Freedom'..??
Do you not think at all that there was a glorious period of time that the Elites were stymied..afraid to extend their gory hands to grab yet again EVERYTHING in their paths..here in America ? That for the first time in history..the common man had a chance ?
Leave out of the mix the apathy and ignorance of the 'common man'..he believing that his rulers do things for the 'common good'...
DWS;
I thank you for the civil discussion. I have imposed upon your limited patience enough for this night...an old man like me needs his sleep.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
quote:Originally posted by Highball
What then did the Founders of this country believe in ? They didn't expect the Creator to stop the British at the bridge..they took up Arms and did the stopping themslves.
I don't, as stated, wish to turn this into another God/no God argument.
There HAS to be a basis for the Rights of the little people to be secure from the depravities of the rich and/or powerful.
What is the human failing that dumbly bows when asked to drop ones pants for the cheek inspection at the local airport. One would think that the airlines would be broke the next day..by independent folks registering their displeasure by refusing to fly.
You don't believe in the Constitution at all, so quit pretending.
Your only fixation is with your obsessions, and how you can force them on others.
Highball hasn't tried to force anything on anybody. All he's done is spoken his piece...trying to educate some folks...there's no forcing in that. As for his patriotism...he's probably one of the most patriotic folks on this board...a true Constitutionalist.
Total, complete bull.
"Highball
Advanced Member
8348 Posts Posted - 08/20/2007 : 10:07:09 PM
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I believe that the Belercous's of the world cannot be reasoned with.
They are a product of sick minds..law professors and Elitists that have sold their souls to the devil.
The dirty little fact that is like a 10 ton elephant in the room is...What the Founders meant by the Second Amendment is actually not relevant anymore.
Not a bit.
We the descendents of the Founders are going to decide one of these fine days exactly what "Freedom" means concerning the Second Amendment..and if the Belercouses and TrFoxes and NRAs' of the world win, Tyranny will exact a terrible toll on them.and us.
Given that we who believe in Freedom win.any of them ever lying his way into office and then revealing their anti-gun bias will be imprisoned as traitors to this country."
Let me know when you find the Constitutional basis for that ECC.
Meanwhile get over your hero worship of someone who would even begin to purport that kind of garbage.
"True Constitutionalist"?
True Brown Shirt dictator, whose only agenda is to force his worldview on everyone else who takes a breath.
He wouldn't know the Constitution if it was used to wipe his butt.
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"Tax evasion is illegal; tax avoidance is an art form"0
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