LIGHTS FOR CCW AND LAW ENFORCEMENT
LIGHTS FOR CCW AND LAW ENFORCEMENT
Hi guys,
I have about 200 lights between flashlights and tactical lights, and also this idea of taking beam shots, so members can compare between them.
First, lets take a look at some lights that are used by police for traffic stops, search and even clearing houses.
These are not for CCW, but good to have in the car or truck to take care of big illumination needs.
This post will try to show how different lights used in law enforcement compare with each other, and will clarify the difference between the lumen ratings used in Luxeon (LED) lights and incandescent lights.
In short, I will show (through pictures) how Luxeons lack definition when used at increased distances.
I have maintained for a long time that LED Luxeons don't have the range over the incandescent to really be helpful for law enforcement. They are excellent lights to use inside the house; their beams are very clean, white and with substantial flood, and in the average house, that is all you need. However, when taken outside to the backyard, woods, or large structure and the distance to the target is 25 yards or more, they lack definition (as they lack the red spectrum of light), and their poor penetration of fog or rain makes them inefficient to clearly identify what you are seeing at that distance.
Moreover, when the subject being illuminated is an animal with a light-drinking fur (depth of texture), the blending effect of the LED's (against the background) will cause the observer to lose perspective.
LOW LIGHT FOR WRITING
As I am in contact with police officers that tell me what they really need to perform their functions at night, I think that I know more than the average guy what is needed for those officers.
What those experienced officers want are three lights that will cover specific illumination chores.
First, when writing a ticket at night, or looking for a dropped pencil in the floor of their own car or any other close up chore, they want a flood light in LED form: small and with an output of 20 lumens or less (LED lumens), and preferably with a clip incorporated to free both hands for holding the pad and writing.
LEO's that have used the Fenix LOP (1 AAA) consider this light ideal (except for the lack of a clip). Another favorite is the ARC AAA. These lights can be held in the mouth without any discomfort.
Fenix has put out a bigger light (1 AA) with two stages output, and the lower output will be also ideal for these chores.
THE BELT LIGHT
Those same officers want to have a good light on their belt. Some prefer the two cell 123's lights like the Surefire 6P, G2, or C-2 for their better flood beam over the more tightly focused Streamlight Scorpion, TL-2 and Night Fighter II (it is important for them to be able to cover an average room with the light, without the need of panning it).
They look for a run time of one hour and an output of 65 lumens.
Some opt for more intense lights like the Surefire 9P or the C-3 with their 105 lumens and one hour run time.
The Streamlight TL-3 is a little too tightly focused for clearing rooms, but it will do fine in an average backyard.
In LED form (Luxeon V), the Surefire L-4 is a good contender due to the excellent flood light that it puts out at medium range inside a house.
The main thing is that the officers want to avoid losing precious seconds by panning a light when entering a room. That is why the Surefires are preferred over the tightly focused others brands.
HERE IS A PICTURE OF SOME OF THE CONTENDERS, FROM LEFT TO RIGHT; THE MAGCHARGER 200 LUMENS AND 6 VOLTS BATTERY STICK, THE STREAMLIGHT ULTRA STINGER 295 LUMENS AND 6 VOLTS BATTERY STICK AND THE BOREALIS 1050 LUMENS (TWO MILLION CANDLEPOWER) AND ROLLS ROYCE BATTERY CARRIER WITH 12 VOLTS SYSTEM
THE CAR LIGHT
These police officers wear a light holder in their belt (a plastic and leather ring). On exiting their cars, they slip in the ring one of the powerful rechargeable lights, most commonly the Magcharger (200 lumens) or the Ultra Stinger (295 lumens) and sometimes a BOREALIS 1050 lumens.
Those are ideal lights for search, clearing houses, backyards, warehouses etc. Being rechargeable, they are always used with a maximum run time (taken out of the charger at start of the shift), a thing that you can not do with 123 batteries unless you are willing to dump half-used batteries at the start of a shift.
Their large diameter (2 inches) reflectors put more light at a longer distance than any of the belt lights. Even though some of the belt lights approach 200 lumens, they do it with reduced run time and much reduced throw, due to their small diameter reflectors.
A Magcharger will put a spot of light at 150 yards, as will the Ultra Stinger and a BOREALIS, which has the capability of illuminating the whole road for 250 yards.
Those lights are ideal for traffic stops, accident sites and the ones with major lumen output can even illuminate through heavily tinted windows, which makes them ideal car's lights or for using in an emergency situation.
Lets start with the popular Surefire G-2 (or 6 P) at 65 lumens, the target is the 8 by 12 tool shed at 30 yards.
We are going to pit the Surefire G-2 65 lumens $35.00 against the Surefire Digital Lumamax L-4 (also 65 lumens and with a price tag of $160.00).
Surefire G-2 65 lumens
Surefire L-4 Luxeon V, LED, 65 lumens
And now we are going to pit the Surefire 6 P with the P-61 120 lumen lamp (20 minutes run time) against the best Luxeon LED thrower that I have (similar to the cree LED).
This is a Mc Gizmo PR T head with a TWOJ bin Luxeon doing 120 plus lumens.
Surefire Centurion C-2 (same as the 6P) with the P-61 lamp, 120 lumens.
And the PR T with TWOJ bin Luxeon, (LED) @ 120 lumens
And now we are going to show a belt light of 200 lumens (The Surefire Centurion III with the P-91 lamp, 200 lumens, 20 minutes run) and three cars' lights of 200 lumens plus and beyond.
Surefire Centurion C-III, 200 lumens P-91 lamp.
And here the Magcharger also 200 lumens, with its bigger reflector and tighter focus will throw the light at 150 yards, while the Centurion III range will stop at 45 or 50 yards.
Magcharger 200 lumens (40,000 candlepowers)
And here is the Ultra Stinger, the most powerful of the Stingers rechargeables from Streamlight with 295 lumens and 75,000 candlepower, although this figure is largely inflated when you consider that is about "bulb" lumens and not torch or "real" lumens.
And now the BOREALIS, with the format of a 3 D (12 1/2 inches long) outputting 1050 lumens (two million candlepower) for 50 minutes.
Do I need to say anything about the importance of a powerful light for police use when clearing a backyard or wooded area?
As you well can see the capabilities of each light from these pictures.
Best regards,
Watchmaker
Hi guys,
I have about 200 lights between flashlights and tactical lights, and also this idea of taking beam shots, so members can compare between them.
First, lets take a look at some lights that are used by police for traffic stops, search and even clearing houses.
These are not for CCW, but good to have in the car or truck to take care of big illumination needs.
This post will try to show how different lights used in law enforcement compare with each other, and will clarify the difference between the lumen ratings used in Luxeon (LED) lights and incandescent lights.
In short, I will show (through pictures) how Luxeons lack definition when used at increased distances.
I have maintained for a long time that LED Luxeons don't have the range over the incandescent to really be helpful for law enforcement. They are excellent lights to use inside the house; their beams are very clean, white and with substantial flood, and in the average house, that is all you need. However, when taken outside to the backyard, woods, or large structure and the distance to the target is 25 yards or more, they lack definition (as they lack the red spectrum of light), and their poor penetration of fog or rain makes them inefficient to clearly identify what you are seeing at that distance.
Moreover, when the subject being illuminated is an animal with a light-drinking fur (depth of texture), the blending effect of the LED's (against the background) will cause the observer to lose perspective.
LOW LIGHT FOR WRITING
As I am in contact with police officers that tell me what they really need to perform their functions at night, I think that I know more than the average guy what is needed for those officers.
What those experienced officers want are three lights that will cover specific illumination chores.
First, when writing a ticket at night, or looking for a dropped pencil in the floor of their own car or any other close up chore, they want a flood light in LED form: small and with an output of 20 lumens or less (LED lumens), and preferably with a clip incorporated to free both hands for holding the pad and writing.
LEO's that have used the Fenix LOP (1 AAA) consider this light ideal (except for the lack of a clip). Another favorite is the ARC AAA. These lights can be held in the mouth without any discomfort.
Fenix has put out a bigger light (1 AA) with two stages output, and the lower output will be also ideal for these chores.
THE BELT LIGHT
Those same officers want to have a good light on their belt. Some prefer the two cell 123's lights like the Surefire 6P, G2, or C-2 for their better flood beam over the more tightly focused Streamlight Scorpion, TL-2 and Night Fighter II (it is important for them to be able to cover an average room with the light, without the need of panning it).
They look for a run time of one hour and an output of 65 lumens.
Some opt for more intense lights like the Surefire 9P or the C-3 with their 105 lumens and one hour run time.
The Streamlight TL-3 is a little too tightly focused for clearing rooms, but it will do fine in an average backyard.
In LED form (Luxeon V), the Surefire L-4 is a good contender due to the excellent flood light that it puts out at medium range inside a house.
The main thing is that the officers want to avoid losing precious seconds by panning a light when entering a room. That is why the Surefires are preferred over the tightly focused others brands.
HERE IS A PICTURE OF SOME OF THE CONTENDERS, FROM LEFT TO RIGHT; THE MAGCHARGER 200 LUMENS AND 6 VOLTS BATTERY STICK, THE STREAMLIGHT ULTRA STINGER 295 LUMENS AND 6 VOLTS BATTERY STICK AND THE BOREALIS 1050 LUMENS (TWO MILLION CANDLEPOWER) AND ROLLS ROYCE BATTERY CARRIER WITH 12 VOLTS SYSTEM
THE CAR LIGHT
These police officers wear a light holder in their belt (a plastic and leather ring). On exiting their cars, they slip in the ring one of the powerful rechargeable lights, most commonly the Magcharger (200 lumens) or the Ultra Stinger (295 lumens) and sometimes a BOREALIS 1050 lumens.
Those are ideal lights for search, clearing houses, backyards, warehouses etc. Being rechargeable, they are always used with a maximum run time (taken out of the charger at start of the shift), a thing that you can not do with 123 batteries unless you are willing to dump half-used batteries at the start of a shift.
Their large diameter (2 inches) reflectors put more light at a longer distance than any of the belt lights. Even though some of the belt lights approach 200 lumens, they do it with reduced run time and much reduced throw, due to their small diameter reflectors.
A Magcharger will put a spot of light at 150 yards, as will the Ultra Stinger and a BOREALIS, which has the capability of illuminating the whole road for 250 yards.
Those lights are ideal for traffic stops, accident sites and the ones with major lumen output can even illuminate through heavily tinted windows, which makes them ideal car's lights or for using in an emergency situation.
Lets start with the popular Surefire G-2 (or 6 P) at 65 lumens, the target is the 8 by 12 tool shed at 30 yards.
We are going to pit the Surefire G-2 65 lumens $35.00 against the Surefire Digital Lumamax L-4 (also 65 lumens and with a price tag of $160.00).
Surefire G-2 65 lumens
Surefire L-4 Luxeon V, LED, 65 lumens
And now we are going to pit the Surefire 6 P with the P-61 120 lumen lamp (20 minutes run time) against the best Luxeon LED thrower that I have (similar to the cree LED).
This is a Mc Gizmo PR T head with a TWOJ bin Luxeon doing 120 plus lumens.
Surefire Centurion C-2 (same as the 6P) with the P-61 lamp, 120 lumens.
And the PR T with TWOJ bin Luxeon, (LED) @ 120 lumens
And now we are going to show a belt light of 200 lumens (The Surefire Centurion III with the P-91 lamp, 200 lumens, 20 minutes run) and three cars' lights of 200 lumens plus and beyond.
Surefire Centurion C-III, 200 lumens P-91 lamp.
And here the Magcharger also 200 lumens, with its bigger reflector and tighter focus will throw the light at 150 yards, while the Centurion III range will stop at 45 or 50 yards.
Magcharger 200 lumens (40,000 candlepowers)
And here is the Ultra Stinger, the most powerful of the Stingers rechargeables from Streamlight with 295 lumens and 75,000 candlepower, although this figure is largely inflated when you consider that is about "bulb" lumens and not torch or "real" lumens.
And now the BOREALIS, with the format of a 3 D (12 1/2 inches long) outputting 1050 lumens (two million candlepower) for 50 minutes.
Do I need to say anything about the importance of a powerful light for police use when clearing a backyard or wooded area?
As you well can see the capabilities of each light from these pictures.
Best regards,
Watchmaker
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Since you know a lot about flashlights I have a question. Is there a filter that can be placed on a flashlight to filter out all visable light but let infared light thru? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by chollagardens
Since you know a lot about flashlights I have a question. Is there a filter that can be placed on a flashlight to filter out all visable light but let infared light thru?
Yes, they are called infrared filters, Surefire have them for their lights for about $90.
I have played around with them and my IR binos. I also have a pair of them for jeep lights (Army Surplus).
Watchmaker0 -
ULTRA FIRE FMR1 REBEL LUXEON
200 LUMENS
ONE CR 123 A BATTERY
I bought this light from Deal Extreme for $23.24 shipped. I was very curious to try one of the Rebel 200 lumen new Luxeons and I think this is the best way to try one inexpensively.
The light has a click on, click off switch and five modes of intensities. The low mode is 30 lumens and is said to last for 24 hours. Another is 100 lumens for six hours, and the 200 lumens mode is three hours; then you have a strobe mode and an SOS mode.
I used a new Battery Station 123 and in the high 200 mode it lasted for ? an hour, and it gets hot very quick. I don't know if the poor run time is the fault of the battery that was under-charged, or if the light will perform the same with others 123's, but that is the results I got.
Due to the small head, the flood effect is quite pronounced and the throw is poor for a 200 lumen light, but I was expecting it to be that way based on experience with other small headed keychain-type lights.
Two hundred lumens in a two inch head of an incandescent will put a level of illumination that is tremendous in comparison to the small head of the Rebel 200 lumens. So we are in a time when we can no longer make an assessment based on the lumens figure, that is when the comparison pictures that I have been taken show the value, as the viewer can see for himself how the different lights with the same value in lumens output perform in real life.
If I consider the low price I like the little light in general, excepting the side switch that can be a little hard to find in a rush, as it is kind of recessed in the head of the light and difficult to find by feel alone. I will have preferred a tail switch such as I have in my Fenix L1D, but it is a tremendous price difference between the two lights, so all things considered I think that the Ultra fire is a great value, and I can put up with the side switch.
After trying to like the clip for a couple of weeks, I ended throwing it away, it is too flimsy and I will not trust it to keep the light in my pocket. The light is regular anodized, but had stood well the use in my pocket with keys and coins.
Here is my usual 26-yard beam shot against my deer head with the Ultra Fire 200 lumens
And here is a beam shot with the 220 lumens Bear Cub rechargeable that sport a two inch head and have a range of 150 yards.
All the best,
Watchmaker0 -
I'm having nightmares now of flashlights chasing me into the woods where I see a deer mount stuck on a tree next to a no trespassing sign. Luckily Doug Wilson wakes me up before I'm impaled on the antlers with cries of "SPAM" and "free advertising." 0 -
Did you call my E2L OUTDOORSMAN a Weakling? [:(!] [:(!] [8D] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by cce1302
I'm having nightmares now of flashlights chasing me into the woods where I see a deer mount stuck on a tree next to a no trespassing sign. Luckily Doug Wilson wakes me up before I'm impaled on the antlers with cries of "SPAM" and "free advertising."
Free advertising my butt, I have spent thousand of dollars in lights, TIME and dedication doing the beam shots.
Perhaps you will be happy if I stack a $50 ticket to each Borealis to pay for advertising that I don't need because I don't want to work overtime.
At 63 and retired, I need to enjoy the time that I have left for hunting, fly fishing, bird watching and chasing girls.
The Borealis is just another hobby and I have enough dough that I don't need to do it my live hood.
Watchmaker0 -
quote:Originally posted by RugerNiner
Did you call my E2L OUTDOORSMAN a Weakling? [:(!] [:(!] [8D]
My E2e with a KL 1 head and a Z-57 click switch is not your E2L Outdoorsman.
And yes my light is a weakling, I may give away this year to one of my family members.
Cheers
Happy Holidays
Watchmaker0 -
Surely there is a dedicated board somewhere for guys that think $300 flashlights are necessary. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by cce1302
I'm having nightmares now of flashlights chasing me into the woods where I see a deer mount stuck on a tree next to a no trespassing sign. Luckily Doug Wilson wakes me up before I'm impaled on the antlers with cries of "SPAM" and "free advertising."
Dude, You realy just made me laugh. I have been reading this post for what seems like an hour. I have to agree with you and I hope I dont start having those same nightmares. At first I was impressed but after a while I started feeling DEPRESSED like I was stuck in flashlight school. Dont get me wrong, I appreciate a good flashlight as much as the next guy. But this is way more information than I'll EVER need.0 -
quote:Originally posted by watchmaker
quote:Originally posted by cce1302
I'm having nightmares now of flashlights chasing me into the woods where I see a deer mount stuck on a tree next to a no trespassing sign. Luckily Doug Wilson wakes me up before I'm impaled on the antlers with cries of "SPAM" and "free advertising."
Free advertising my butt, I have spent thousand of dollars in lights, TIME and dedication doing the beam shots.
Perhaps you will be happy if I stack a $50 ticket to each Borealis to pay for advertising that I don't need because I don't want to work overtime.
At 63 and retired, I need to enjoy the time that I have left for hunting, fly fishing, bird watching and chasing girls.
The Borealis is just another hobby and I have enough dough that I don't need to do it my live hood.
Watchmaker
WATCHMAKER with all due respect This general forum I think is kinda like a chat room whare people ask questions or give there oppinion on different things or they might comment on a post or to reply to someone elses oppinion. Personally I think everybody is intitled to their own oppinion. It is apparent that you have GREAT knowlege in this subject and if I were ever to have any questions about flashlights or anything pertaining to this subject, you would be the man I would contact. But come on You have to admit your post really does look like a sales brochure. But thats my oppinion and who the heck am I? I cant even spell good!0 -
quote:Originally posted by Frank Goad
quote:Originally posted by watchmaker
quote:Originally posted by cce1302
I'm having nightmares now of flashlights chasing me into the woods where I see a deer mount stuck on a tree next to a no trespassing sign. Luckily Doug Wilson wakes me up before I'm impaled on the antlers with cries of "SPAM" and "free advertising."
Free advertising my butt, I have spent thousand of dollars in lights, TIME and dedication doing the beam shots.
Perhaps you will be happy if I stack a $50 ticket to each Borealis to pay for advertising that I don't need because I don't want to work overtime.
At 63 and retired, I need to enjoy the time that I have left for hunting, fly fishing, bird watching and chasing girls.
The Borealis is just another hobby and I have enough dough that I don't need to do it my live hood.
Watchmaker
WATCHMAKER with all due respect This general forum I think is kinda like a chat room whare people ask questions or give there oppinion on different things or they might comment on a post or to reply to someone elses oppinion. Personally I think everybody is intitled to their own oppinion. It is apparent that you have GREAT knowlege in this subject and if I were ever to have any questions about flashlights or anything pertaining to this subject, you would be the man I would contact. But come on You have to admit your post really does look like a sales brochure. But thats my oppinion and who the heck am I? I cant even spell good!
Hey WATCHMAKER its me again, I almost forgot to wish you and your family a Merry Christmass. I can only imagin how beautiful your Christmass lights are. Have a safe and wonderful Holiday season.0 -
Spammer...#8207;
From: Doug Wilson (thunderboltranch@msn.com)
Sent: Fri 12/21/07 10:17 AM
To: David Nunn (gpd035@sbcglobal.net)
Cc: Me Me (thunderboltranch@msn.com)
Dear David,
Don't you agree that this guy has pushed the limits of GunBroker's policies a little too far ??
I'm going to post this on his thread as well.
I know you are a busy Man.
I wish you and those you love the best possible Christmas.
Best regards,
Doug Wilson0 -
Frank Goad said......."But come on You have to admit your post really does look like a sales brochure....."
It could be a sales brochure but it could also be a informal form of the scientific method. Some people think, learn and teach that way. I understand that a line/limits for posting has to be drawn somewhere. He has made us aware of his flashlights and flashlight literate but I missed the sales pitch. He refered me to Surefire and mentioned Wal Mart as a source for a flashlight so he won't make much money that way. If he has flashlights for sale teach him how to list, edit out any sales pitches, and call the thread a "shameless plug". The information has been helpful to me. The Shot Show starts in 42 days and I hope to learn more before I go.0 -
Well I think it's a neat post and thanks to Watchmaker for taking the time and putting forth the effort to bring it to us.
Got Guns?0 -
Well...
watchmaker says he's just interested in flashlights and wanted to take some beamshots.
The pictures are straight from the Borealis manufacturer's site.
The name on his photobucket album is blackbear, which is the manufacturer.
Somebody already tried the "Hey, look what I found" routine.
http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=268836
A google search shows the same tactics being used on at least 20 other forums.
Here's some info from the manufacturer's own manual:
Also avoid touching the interior of the reflector as any fingerprints will degrade it, and also the metalizing is very delicate and only blowing air should be used to clean it.
-So if you touch the reflector, it's toast.
To protect the bulb, don't flash the light in very short bursts. It takes a minimum of 15 seconds for the halogenxenon gas to get hot enough to allow the tungsten filament to recycle properly.
-You have to turn it on and let it warm up for 15 seconds (minimum) before it'll work to spec.
Allow batteries fresh from charger to "rest" for one hour and thirty minutes to two hours (depending on how long they have been in trickle charge) before using the light... If the batteries are not allowed to rest, the extra voltage will probably instaflash the bulb when the light is turned on. So let them rest for a MINIMUM OF ONE HOUR AND THIRTY MINUTES.
-Yeah, that sounds real convenient. Try to use the thing less than an hour and a half after you charge the batteries and POOF goes the souper-zoot bulb.
Recharge the batteries as soon as the light starts dimming, don't allow the beam to go yellow. If the batteries are discharged too much, they can possibly go into reverse polarity and that will kill them.
-Another thing that needs to be babied or you'll have a dead light and be spending a chunk of money and time to get it running.
From the Bear Cub model manual:
If the batteries try to spring out of the charger, a rubber band around the charger and the batteries will secure them. One of the batteries, (the last one to enter the flashlight) had the skirt cut open for maximum contact with the tailcap spring. Please wait at least two hours after charging the batteries before installing.
-Really sophisticated.
Like the Cap'n once said, that's an awful lot of caveats and addenda.
Besides the dishonesty of advertising trying to pass as an interested third party, I'll say thanks but no thanks to Black Bear flashlights.0 -
After been in several major forums for three years (the time I own a computer) and posting about lights,answering questions and building my Borealis light, I thought everybody knew me already.
I am Black Bear/Black Bwear 84 in most forums, the change to Watchmaker come about because after retiring from watch making I had more time to visit the forums, BUT I found some others black bears.
So to avoid confusion I changed my handle to watchmaker.
Nothing dishonest about that.
Mr. Orange wasted a lot of time quoting from the manual of the Bear Cub, I have a new charger for it that will not need a rubber band to hold the batteries in place, it sound like nitpicking to me, trying to discredit the light that you don't know anything about.
The thread "Lights for CCW and law enforcement" is new in this forum but have a year in others forums, with a LOT more reviews posted.
If some members are interested in lights, you will find a LOT of information about them in my thread, if you are not interested stop attacking my person and my lights of which you don't know nothing about.
Of course if I am going to review somebody elses lights, I am going to review my own Borealis or Bear Cub or other lights that I do with my own two hands.
You you want to call my reviews SPAM or free advertising, it should apply for all the lights I am reviewing, Surefire, Fenix, RayOVac, Maglites and others benefit from the same "free advertisement".
I know they call them "discussion forums" but I refuse to waste my time discussing anything when I can use my time more profitable, it seems that are a lot of people here that have nothing better to do, than to attack a new member.
Happy Holidays
Watchmaker/Black Bear0 -
This thread reads like some sort of commercial advertise ment and that is prohibited under the posting guidelines. It's also turning a little argumentative. I hesitate to delete it because I'm not 100% sure it's inappropriate for the forum and somer members have said they gained some good info from it. I'm going to lock it and if nunn disagrees then he can unlock it. 0 -
Revived from the depths. Temporarily. 0 -
I originally locked this but since so many folks (with one exception) seem to want it available I'll unlock it. Don't know what more there is to add to the thread but have it since it seems so important to some of you. 0 -
I missed it the first time around. Sales pitch or not there is a lot of information in here.
So what is the deal with advertised lumens? I always figured a lumen was a lumen.0
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