Suicidal and or Dangerous?
If you knew someone was very suicidal and or a danger to themself or their family or even the public due to a mental illness, and you knew they had in their possesion a firearm, would you try to remove the firearm from that persons possesion if you had the oppourtunity or would you ignore it and hope for the best.
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as for this thread topic, which is obviously H.R. 2460, let me say this.
if we don't want the government to take our guns away from us because there is a threat that criminal activity can happen with them, then why would it be okay because there is a threat that people with mental problems could hurt themselves or others?!?!
The criminals are the ones with mental problems most of the time anyways?! right?!
and the mental people could still get guns illegally just like the criminals, couldn't they?
like i said before,
that's only the begining of our rights, as a whole, being dimenished.0 -
I am not a cold, heartless person, and I've had suicide happen very close to me.
Be that as it may. I believe suicide is a Darwinian process, and I strongly believe that Darwinian action is the most important part of human evolution.
This does not mean that I have no concern, empathy, or compassion for those that are affected by Darwinian processes.
The Right to Keep and Bear Arms is a God-given Right, guaranteed to Americans by the Second Amendment to the United States Constitution, which is second only to the Holy Bible in its' perfection as a profound document.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by hisbigbootygirl
as for this thread topic, which is obviously H.R. 2460, let me say this.
if we don't want the government to take our guns away from us because there is a threat that criminal activity can happen with them, then why would it be okay because there is a threat that people with mental problems could hurt themselves or others?!?!
The criminals are the ones with mental problems most of the time anyways?! right?!
like i said before,
that's only the begining of our rights, as a whole, being dimenished.
Are you aware of the fact that since 1968 anyone adjudicated as mentally defective could not legally purchase a firearm?
The NRA fought against the GCA of 1968.
The NICS system for an instant background check was put in place against Sarah Bradys wishes because it did away with the waiting period that Sarah Brady fought to have after her Husband took a bullet intended for Ronald Reagon.
The NRA was for the NICS check system because it was a step in the right direction from where Sarah Brady was taking it.
The Flawed NICS system created unjustified delays or denials of someone trying to purchase a firearm.
The NRA now is only trying to fix the NICS system so that these denials and delays are reduced.
There is nothing in that Bill HR2460 that states "Veterans Dissarmament Act"
That is something that the enemy of the NRA GOA has coined.0 -
I agree that allowing head shrinks or health professionals to make decisions that affect a citizens right to keep and bear arms is a bad idea. How many doctors do you know who are afriad of guns and would abuse this power if they had it? I know of several. 0 -
LKB3rd
I read one time that the profession with the highest rate of suicide was the psychiatrist[:0].
I don't know if that is true or not0 -
quote:Originally posted by MVP
quote:Originally posted by hisbigbootygirl
as for this thread topic, which is obviously H.R. 2460, let me say this.
if we don't want the government to take our guns away from us because there is a threat that criminal activity can happen with them, then why would it be okay because there is a threat that people with mental problems could hurt themselves or others?!?!
The criminals are the ones with mental problems most of the time anyways?! right?!
like i said before,
that's only the begining of our rights, as a whole, being dimenished.
Are you aware of the fact that since 1968 anyone adjudicated as mentally defective could not legally purchase a firearm?
The NRA fought against the GCA of 1968.
The NICS system for an instant background check was put in place against Sarah Bradys wishes because it did away with the waiting period that Sarah Brady fought to have after her Husband took a bullet intended for Ronald Reagon.
The NRA was for the NICS check system because it was a step in the right direction from where Sarah Brady was taking it.
The Flawed NICS system created unjustified delays or denials of someone trying to purchase a firearm.
The NRA now is only trying to fix the NICS system so that these denials and delays are reduced.
There is nothing in that Bill HR2460 that states "Veterans Dissarmament Act"
That is something that the enemy of the NRA GOA has coined.
No, i did not know half of that crap but i could tell you were fixated on this topic so i gave my two cents. i did already know that anyone adjudicated as mentally defective could not legally purchase a firearm and that is what i think is so silly about all of this.0 -
quote:Originally posted by hisbigbootygirl
quote:Originally posted by MVP
quote:Originally posted by hisbigbootygirl
as for this thread topic, which is obviously H.R. 2460, let me say this.
if we don't want the government to take our guns away from us because there is a threat that criminal activity can happen with them, then why would it be okay because there is a threat that people with mental problems could hurt themselves or others?!?!
The criminals are the ones with mental problems most of the time anyways?! right?!
like i said before,
that's only the begining of our rights, as a whole, being dimenished.
Are you aware of the fact that since 1968 anyone adjudicated as mentally defective could not legally purchase a firearm?
The NRA fought against the GCA of 1968.
The NICS system for an instant background check was put in place against Sarah Bradys wishes because it did away with the waiting period that Sarah Brady fought to have after her Husband took a bullet intended for Ronald Reagon.
The NRA was for the NICS check system because it was a step in the right direction from where Sarah Brady was taking it.
The Flawed NICS system created unjustified delays or denials of someone trying to purchase a firearm.
The NRA now is only trying to fix the NICS system so that these denials and delays are reduced.
There is nothing in that Bill HR2460 that states "Veterans Dissarmament Act"
That is something that the enemy of the NRA GOA has coined.
No, i did not know half of that crap but i could tell you were fixated on this topic so i gave my two cents. i did already know that anyone adjudicated as mentally defective could not legally purchase a firearm and that is what i think is so silly about all of this.
Thats why your post about the NRA backstabbing the American people did not sit well with me.
It was not only void of facts but was full of the BS that has become the norm from the GOA.0 -
quote:Originally posted by MVP
LKB3rd
I read one time that the profession with the highest rate of suicide was the psychiatrist[:0].
I don't know if that is true or not
LOL i play guitar, and i just picked up a gig for later this month playing at a benefit for mental health care professionals who suffer from mental illness or substance abuse problems. I plan to look around the attendees very closely lol and see if i can pick out the drug addicted psychiatrists :P0 -
quote:Originally posted by MVP
Thats why your post about the NRA backstabbing the American people did not sit well with me.
It was not only void of facts but was full of the BS that has become the norm from the GOA.
[:)]don't blame the messenger. i'm only passing on information, do with it what u will.0 -
Speaking generally and not to any other post, I've heard it said that suicide is the most intensely self-centered and selfish action one could possibly take. I realize that sounds like an oxymoron, but maybe there's something to it.
I suppose threatening suicide could also be seen in a similar manner.
Sahagan0 -
LKB3rd;
"LOL i play guitar, and i just picked up a gig for later this month playing at a benefit for mental health care professionals who suffer from mental illness or substance abuse problems. I plan to look around the attendees very closely lol and see if i can pick out the drug addicted psychiatrists :P"
In 1975 I was asked to speak at religious services at the only Leper Hospital in the nation, in Carrville, Louisiana. I recall shaking the (remnants of) hands of any number of people who had parts of their faces missing, huge gaps in other parts of the anatomy, missing limbs and so forth. It was scary.
Especially so when I found out that nearly half the population of the place (it was so big that people rode bicycles down the halls to get around) had been health care professionals and/or missionaries who had dedicated their lives to care for lepers around the world.
I felt then, and do now, that anyone who endangers their own lives, even being willing to contract the same disease, in order to care for others....is so far out of my league as to make me ashamed.
I'd give anything to care about anyone, or anything, that much.
Sahagan0 -
There are some selfless and wonderful people out there.
You are one of them.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by MVP
If you knew someone was very suicidal and or a danger to themself or their family or even the public due to a mental illness, and you knew they had in their possesion a firearm, would you try to remove the firearm from that persons possesion if you had the oppourtunity or would you ignore it and hope for the best.
People like that make the world exciting.. I would ignore it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by reloader44mag
quote:Originally posted by MVP
If you knew someone was very suicidal and or a danger to themself or their family or even the public due to a mental illness, and you knew they had in their possesion a firearm, would you try to remove the firearm from that persons possesion if you had the oppourtunity or would you ignore it and hope for the best.
People like that make the world exciting.. I would ignore it.
You can only ignore it for so long and then you find yourself cleaning the brains off the wall and floor behind the couch.
Real exciting.0 -
I have never had to clean it. I hire that stuff out. 0 -
yes, I will help him, I will not call the law, the law they are trying to pass, be a friend, he may never be able to buy another guy.
Be a great friend, stay with him, dont leave him alone.
talk with him, get a pastor or preacher.'0 -
quote:Originally posted by MVP
If you knew someone was very suicidal and or a danger to themself or their family or even the public due to a mental illness, and you knew they had in their possesion a firearm, would you try to remove the firearm from that persons possesion if you had the oppourtunity or would you ignore it and hope for the best.
There are more problems in this scenario than I can list. First, If I take it upon myself to decide you are mentally ill and not qualified to possess a firearm, I have by default given you and everyone else the authority to make the same decision about me. I'm not willing to do that.
Second, when the judge gets involved later, and he will, and asks me what my qualifications are to decide someone is mentally ill, and what my authority is to take someone's property, I don't have a good answer. My only defense would be "Not guilty by reason of stupidity".
If a person is an imminent threat to me, or someone else in my presence, I can take action to eliminate the threat, but I can't legally or morally take any action to stop someone doing something they might do in the future.
If you know someone who you think has mental problems and might be dangerous, do what you can to get them with someone who can do something legally. If it's something law enforcement and/or medical personnel need to be involved in, try to get them involved.
To answer your question, I have no plans to start collecting firearms from the mentally ill.0 -
JamesRK... One of the best resplies I have ever seen in my short time here. 0 -
I agree w Kimbercolt on this one.
However if the "LAW" respectfully asked the person to hand over the guns for a while and then respectfully left them back after the lifecrisis been dealt with.Then i would have no problem w the legal system taking care of those matters.0 -
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
quote:Originally posted by MVP
If you knew someone was very suicidal and or a danger to themself or their family or even the public due to a mental illness, and you knew they had in their possesion a firearm, would you try to remove the firearm from that persons possesion if you had the oppourtunity or would you ignore it and hope for the best.
There are more problems in this scenario than I can list. First, If I take it upon myself to decide you are mentally ill and not qualified to possess a firearm, I have by default given you and everyone else the authority to make the same decision about me. I'm not willing to do that.
Second, when the judge gets involved later, and he will, and asks me what my qualifications are to decide someone is mentally ill, and what my authority is to take someone's property, I don't have a good answer. My only defense would be "Not guilty by reason of stupidity".
If a person is an imminent threat to me, or someone else in my presence, I can take action to eliminate the threat, but I can't legally or morally take any action to stop someone doing something they might do in the future.
If you know someone who you think has mental problems and might be dangerous, do what you can to get them with someone who can do something legally. If it's something law enforcement and/or medical personnel need to be involved in, try to get them involved.
To answer your question, I have no plans to start collecting firearms from the mentally ill.
First off, from reading your post it appears to me that you are not willing to risk taking action to prevent a suicide. While each of us is faced with decision making that may come back to haunt us, such as what qualifies you to shoot when merely threatened?, it stands to reason that to err on the side of caution and removing a firearm is the best course of action.
If at a later date, a judge wants to question the action and qualifications, "it seemed to be the right thing to do at the time" would be an adequate defense that could not be faulted.
I am somewhat biased because my father was a suicide by a .32 Colt automatic. Had I known that there was a chance he would have blown his brains out in his depressed state, I would not have hesitated to remove any and all weapons from his control poste haste, legality be damned. Unless you have actually been in this position, a persons opinion is hardly worth the powder to blow it to hell.
When a person you love is gone, little legal niceties don't mean a whole lot.0 -
p3skyking, I'm sorry to hear about your father. If you had known his intentions and removed all weapons from his control, it might have made a difference, but I doubt it. The only way I know of to stop a person intent on suicide is to take that person into custody and set a suicide watch. Even that is only a temporary intervention. I have very little confidence in the mental health professionals in dealing with mental illness. I have even less confidence in the rest of us.
I am less concerned with what is legal than with what is right. Living in a place with some remnant of personal freedom is dangerous. I don't pretend to give myself the authority to make decisions for other people I wouldn't give them to make for me. Since I'm not willing to give you the right to decide if I should be armed, I won't make that decision for you.
Again, I'm sorry about your father and I can understand how you feel about the subject, I just don't agree with you on this one.0 -
quote:Originally posted by MVP
If you knew someone was very suicidal and or a danger to themself or their family or even the public due to a mental illness, and you knew they had in their possesion a firearm, would you try to remove the firearm from that persons possesion if you had the oppourtunity or would you ignore it and hope for the best.
Would you please provide a specific example that caused this someone to be judged very suicidal, and clarify the mental illness issue as well?0 -
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by MVP
If you knew someone was very suicidal and or a danger to themself or their family or even the public due to a mental illness, and you knew they had in their possesion a firearm, would you try to remove the firearm from that persons possesion if you had the oppourtunity or would you ignore it and hope for the best.
Would you please provide a specific example that caused this someone to be judged very suicidal, and clarify the mental illness issue as well?
Good Point!0
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