Killing of burglars spurs legal debate. TX
PASADENA, Texas - When he saw two men using a crowbar to enter his neighbor's house this month, Joe Horn did what many people would do: He called 911.
But when police had not shown up by the time the men were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He put down the phone, stepped outside with his shotgun and killed them.
"I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: "Property's not worth killing someone over."
Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded was captured on the 911 tape, followed by the warning: "Move [and] you're dead" and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, died from their wounds. Both had histories of committing small-time crimes.
The recording of Horn's anger, frustration and willingness to take the law into his own hands has made him the focus of a national dispute. Critics condemn him as a vigilante bent on meting out murderous justice. Admirers praise him as a courageous hero whom any law abider would love to have next door.
"Why is he still a free man?" Linda E. Edwards wrote in a letter to The Houston Chronicle.
"Joe Horn gets a Texas 'attaboy' from me," countered John E. Meagher in the next letter on the page, adding: "Justice was served, law or not."
As the debate rages on talk radio and cable news shows, Horn remains free. However, according to his attorney, he is so overwrought with grief and overwhelmed by the glare of publicity that he has left his home in this blue-collar Houston suburb.
"Joe has never been anything but a gentle person. He's not the type of monster that they are making him out to be," attorney Tom Lambright said in an interview with Houston radio host Michael Berry.
Lambright did not return requests for comment.
Authorities are investigating what happened Nov. 14, but they plan to let a Harris County grand jury decide whether Horn, a former computer consultant, should be indicted for any crimes.
"This is not an individual who stepped outside and gunned down two pedestrians on the sidewalk," said Pasadena police Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "In a situation where there is some uncertainty about which side of the law someone was on, the best thing to do is assemble all the information and present it to the grand jury."
Noting Texans' prevailing populist views on guns and self-defense - and the sharply mixed reaction to what Horn did - legal experts differ over whether a jury of his peers would ever indict him. They also differ on whether one should, given a Texas law known as the "castle doctrine" that permits citizens to use deadly force to defend their homes and cars.
Tommy LaFon, a Houston defense attorney and former prosecutor who has argued about 50 disputed shooting cases before grand juries, said Horn's lawyers may be able to claim that his actions were legal because he was acting as the de facto defender of his neighbor's property.
"If a jury believes he was standing in the shoes of the owner, that might affect their decision," LaFon said.
Critics of the way the case has been handled say the 911 tape is proof that Horn had determined to shoot the robbers before stepping outside with his gun.
Noting that Horn is white and the suspects were dark-skinned, Quanell X, a Houston activist, accused authorities of bias. Horn should be charged with murder, he said.
"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."
But when police had not shown up by the time the men were about to leave, the 61-year-old retiree did something most people probably would not: He put down the phone, stepped outside with his shotgun and killed them.
"I'm not going to let them get away with this," Horn told the 911 dispatcher, who responded: "Property's not worth killing someone over."
Seconds later, the sound of a gun being loaded was captured on the 911 tape, followed by the warning: "Move [and] you're dead" and then three bursts of gunfire. Miguel DeJesus, 38, and Diego Ortiz, 30, died from their wounds. Both had histories of committing small-time crimes.
The recording of Horn's anger, frustration and willingness to take the law into his own hands has made him the focus of a national dispute. Critics condemn him as a vigilante bent on meting out murderous justice. Admirers praise him as a courageous hero whom any law abider would love to have next door.
"Why is he still a free man?" Linda E. Edwards wrote in a letter to The Houston Chronicle.
"Joe Horn gets a Texas 'attaboy' from me," countered John E. Meagher in the next letter on the page, adding: "Justice was served, law or not."
As the debate rages on talk radio and cable news shows, Horn remains free. However, according to his attorney, he is so overwrought with grief and overwhelmed by the glare of publicity that he has left his home in this blue-collar Houston suburb.
"Joe has never been anything but a gentle person. He's not the type of monster that they are making him out to be," attorney Tom Lambright said in an interview with Houston radio host Michael Berry.
Lambright did not return requests for comment.
Authorities are investigating what happened Nov. 14, but they plan to let a Harris County grand jury decide whether Horn, a former computer consultant, should be indicted for any crimes.
"This is not an individual who stepped outside and gunned down two pedestrians on the sidewalk," said Pasadena police Capt. A.H. "Bud" Corbett. "In a situation where there is some uncertainty about which side of the law someone was on, the best thing to do is assemble all the information and present it to the grand jury."
Noting Texans' prevailing populist views on guns and self-defense - and the sharply mixed reaction to what Horn did - legal experts differ over whether a jury of his peers would ever indict him. They also differ on whether one should, given a Texas law known as the "castle doctrine" that permits citizens to use deadly force to defend their homes and cars.
Tommy LaFon, a Houston defense attorney and former prosecutor who has argued about 50 disputed shooting cases before grand juries, said Horn's lawyers may be able to claim that his actions were legal because he was acting as the de facto defender of his neighbor's property.
"If a jury believes he was standing in the shoes of the owner, that might affect their decision," LaFon said.
Critics of the way the case has been handled say the 911 tape is proof that Horn had determined to shoot the robbers before stepping outside with his gun.
Noting that Horn is white and the suspects were dark-skinned, Quanell X, a Houston activist, accused authorities of bias. Horn should be charged with murder, he said.
"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."
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"See I am a nice guy #4 shot to the feet, your not going to be running far or dead. You will live with orthopedic shoes as a reminder for your petty azz crime."
At the range of 15 feet, a load of #4 from a 12 gauge will all but separate the foot from the leg, and all the King's horses, and all the King's men, won't put it back together again. Could well cause death.
Ask James RK, he saw a guy killed in similar fashion, but shot in the arm.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
I doubt many who are not Texans understand how most of us see this. If you're my neighbor, we are connected in one way or another. I would defend your family and your property, and hope you would do the same for me.
I am with you 100% and I am an Oregonian! Criminals are bottom sucking scum and need to be punished, if society chooses not to do the job then the people will step up and do whats necessary. I hope America never becomes like the UK where criminals rule and society protects them and not its citizens who pay the salaries of the socialist bums who run that place. Sorry for the Rant![:0][:0]0 -
quote:Originally posted by dano
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
quote:Originally posted by dano
If the bad guys have relatives.....stay tuned for a civil suit.
Don't believe that will float in Texas either.
Oh, I think it'll float alrighty.......[}:)]
The term...."Wrongful Death" comes to mind.....
OJ did a "wrongful death"
The Texas hero neighbor was just "taking out the trash". [^][^][:0]0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
Ask James RK, he saw a guy killed in similar fashion, but shot in the arm.
That was my cousin, the Corinth Mississippi cop. I was out of the state at the time and I can prove it. [:D]
He was called to the Dixie Dog Stand after the fact. The guy was dead when he got there. A guy shot him in the elbow, just to wound him. Witnesses said he just sat down on the curb, and died.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dano
Oh, I think it'll float alrighty.......[}:)]
The term...."Wrongful Death" comes to mind.....
Ever heard of a Texas jury? They usually don't agree with families of criminals civally or criminally. This ain't Kalifornia!0 -
I HATE Quanell X! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dano
Oh, I think it'll float alrighty.......[}:)]
The term...."Wrongful Death" comes to mind.....In Texas, "he needed killing" can sometimes still be a valid defense.0 -
quote:
"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."
I'm sure he wasn't trying to kill them. He was firing warning shots at their kneecaps, and due to the stress of the situation, he hit a little high.0 -
His mistake was being taped saying he was going to kill them. If he had just said he was going to detain them he probably would not be in so much trouble. We all need to be aware that the things we post here could come back to bite us someday. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by gruntled
His mistake was being taped saying he was going to kill them. If he had just said he was going to detain them he probably would not be in so much trouble. We all need to be aware that the things we post here could come back to bite us someday.
Listen to the tape! What he said was, he was not going to let them get away with it (i.e. robbing the house next door). Then he went outside and said "Move and you're dead." They obviously moved. They were shot in the chest. This leads me to believe that they moved toward him, as it is kinda hard to shoot someone in the chest that isn't facing you. Sounds like self-defense to me.0 -
quote:"Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."
... so?
+10 -
That God he didn't use an AK47. He'd already been hung.
I don't think there's enough information here to really decide if he did the right thing of not. Property isn't worth killing over, but from what I've read I wouldn't bring charges up either. So I'm kind of spilt on it.0 -
America has hope.
He did the right thing.....well minus the calling 9-1-1 part.
There's a lesson for all there.....[}:)]0 -
All you folks protesting that 'taking a life over property' is a bad thing are completely missing the crux of the matter.
Remember Clinton being Impeached ? Not for sex..but because he LIED about it ?
Its NOT THE PROPERTY...its about the absolute RIGHT to own that property without some slimebag coming along to steal it from you !!!
That ABSOLUTE RIGHT IS INDEED worth killing over !!
Just because your senses have been jaded and blunted by wallowing in seas and mountains of 'stuff' DOES NOT change the facts !!
ItS' MINE...if you don't want to be shot...STAY AWAY FROM IT !!
Another poster, another thread, protested that 'we are a civilized society, now'..count me as a savage.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
All you folks protesting that 'taking a life over property' is a bad thing are completely missing the crux of the matter.
Remember Clinton being Impeached ? Not for sex..but because he LIED about it ?
Its NOT THE PROPERTY...its about the absolute RIGHT to own that property without some slimebag coming along to steal it from you !!!
That ABSOLUTE RIGHT IS INDEED worth killing over !!
Just because your senses have been jaded and blunted by wallowing in seas and mountains of 'stuff' DOES NOT change the facts !!
ItS' MINE...if you don't want to be shot...STAY AWAY FROM IT !!
Another poster, another thread, protested that 'we are a civilized society, now'..count me as a savage.
Well put and darn accurate.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dano
If memory serves me well.....OJ was convicted in a civil court. [^]
In Kalifornia, not Texas. Are you thick Dano?[}:)]0 -
Would indeed have to be some sort of LEO mentality to equate O.J.s killing innocent people with a decent citizen scrubbing out some trash.
Just the sort of thing expected from LEOs.0 -
Ever heard of the Second Amendment, Dano ?
Insurance against offficals deciding whom may or may not own weapons.
Dimly grasp the concept of citizens being the REAL government of America...not government officals ?
I do understand your type very nearly have achieved your ultimate objective..that being ONLY citizens approved by people like you may be armed...0 -
"Am I my brothers keeper' ?
Clearly, this guy thought so..he made a pact with the neighbor to protect the property.
My son ? I don't have one...and have thought long and hard over this exact scnerio.
Given my mindset..I would grieve deeply..over my inability to raise a decent human being...and in the grief My inability caused some other citizen that had to shoot that son.
Once again...its ISN'T the PROPERTY...it is about the slimebag perp that made the decision to commit suicide by invading my or somebody elses privacy and RIGHT TO OWN PROPERTY without being harassed.
There is human life that is not worth saving...a sad fact.0 -
Texas law states that you have a right to kill a burglar if they are getting away with property and you believe it will not be able to be returned to its owner. IN THE BACK JACK!! I love Texas. The media will blow this all up of course but I am pretty sure he won't go to prison, but it will cost him a lot of dough for a lawyer to defend him in the meantime.He can assume his neighbor didn't want to get ripped off and simply assist his wishes. 0 -
quote:"Mr. Horn did not have to kill those people," Quanell X said during a protest. "Mr. Horn became judge, jury and executioner."My responses to those two items: "Yes he did" and "good for him".[}:)][:D] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dano
Man....some of you are so friggin stupid, it's amazing......[V]
Some of you shouldn't be within 100' of a firearm.......[xx(]
Someone is pretty "stupid" (your word not mine) if they don't think that it's up to the jury, not the arresting officer when it comes to intent, extenuating circumstances and guilt. You obviously have no clue how the criminal and civil court system works, nor of the history of such trials in Texas. The one thing he has against him is he's in Harris county where the Texas Attorney General had to tell the county DA and police officers that if they continued to arrest Texas CHL holders for legally carrying a gun, they too would face state charges.
You can't see past your local attitude to understand that not everyone (citizens, police and judges) see it the way you do. News flash, just because it's what you think doesn't make it so.
I love you buddy, but you're wearing the BDU's a little too tight. This is Texas where citizens support citizens who defend life and property.
Please take time to read the Castle Doctrine. While it doesn't apply directly here, Texas laws alows that someone can be the defacto property owner if the actual property owner is not present, especially if the actual owner has expressed the desire for the friend or neighbor to do so.
Face it friend, you are speaking for your own state and it's laws, and like a democrat, you don't believe any other state should differ.
That's just wrong.[V]0 -
Texas also recently passed a bill that pretty well nixes civil suits on this type of situation, you get past the grand jury and the legal issues at least are over. A right to shoot an unarmed man??? Well we got it in Texas if he is running off with your property. Anybody wanna move here? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dano
What part of the above gives a person the right to be become judge, jury and untimately....executioner?
Nothing, but the Castle Doctrine (in Texas) does.0 -
quote: well regulated Militia, being necessary to the security of a free State
Self explanitory, Dano..in black and white.
You officials have fallen down on the job..haven't you ? The street cop may well be doing a splendid job..just getting no help from from above.
When the average citizen sees scum running out the next door with property..and realizes that the chance of said perp ever being caught..if caught, the perp is back out on the street next day.whats a poor citizen to do ?
He does what is RIGHT.RIGHT NOW.
Better get used to it.because all over America, Citizens are pretty fed up with barbarians swarming over borders, slimebags stealing anything not welded down..and official ignoring of the problem.
And..really...who better to make a such a decision...somebody arriving 30 moments after the perp has killed somebody or vanished...or a decent citizen observing the crime ?0 -
quote:Originally posted by dano
What's just wrong....is GUNNING down an UNARMED person for taking property, and having that mindset even before carrying out the deed.
Texas law or not, it doesn't get much more wrong than that.
You can hide behind Texas law all you want. Still doesn't make it morally right.
In your eyes, Texas and Texans believe differently, and I see you could never be a Law Enforcemnt Officer in Texas because you want to follow only the laws you agree with, and write new ones to fit in with what you believe. We call them rogue cops down here, and the good cops are the first ones to put them behind bars.
Stay out of Texas. You won't like the accommodations we provide for those who write their own laws.
PS, Texas law even provides for use of deadly force against a LEO for certain attemps to make illegal arrest or misuse his force against a citizen.
Humbling, isn't it.0 -
Well, Dano..you are welcome to your opinion. Free country, all that...
Thank God Texas and Oklahoma have a bit of common sense..instead of emotions about it.
You are hung up on the word "Property"..and perfectly willing to give all MY Rights...PLUS the PERPS rights..to the Perp.
Such sympathy for scum..bottom-dwelling mud feeders.
Just too bad you couldn't spare a bit for the REAL victims..those violated by the underworld.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dano
What's just wrong....is GUNNING down an UNARMED person for taking property, and having that mindset even before carrying out the deed.
Texas law or not, it doesn't get much more wrong than that.
You can hide behind Texas law all you want. Still doesn't make it morally right.
What does get more wrong is stealing someone else's property.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dano
You can keep Texas all to yourself. [xx(] Nothing in Texas appeals to me.
Thank you, we will.
quote:Originally posted by dano
I have "issues" about shooting an unarmed person, that isn't threatening me.
We see theft as a threat to us because we are damaged by the financial loss that we have worked hard for.
On a personal note, I don't know of any property I own that I would be willing to kill over, but I could be overlooking something. That is not the issue here, the law and following it is. I am greatly disappointed that someone who is an acting LEO would not be willing to follow the law, even if he doesn't agree with it.
Gut check time my friend. Maybe you should consider a career change.0 -
a man works with tools or equipment that makes a living for his family. You think its right for a person to steal this family's livelehood? Maybe you should examine your morals? You have an opinion and welcome to it. We believe we have the right to defend our life and property, we should be given the same right you are exercising without being attacked .We don't keep this secret from our thieves and rapists here, they know what can happen. Maybe you should advertise here how good they would have it in your neighborhood. 0
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