Winchester 40 cal. 180grain and 165grain ammo.
I am still learning about ballistics.
I've usually been target shooting my various semi-auto pistols with Wal-Mart Winchester white box 40 cal. 180 grain ammo.
But this last time when I went to buy some,they were out of those, but had Winchester white box 165 grain ammo instead, so I bought them.
The recoil on the 165 grained ammo at the range seemed to have a noticiblly harder/sharper recoil muzzel flip than all my previous 180 grained ammo firings had felt when fired over that part few months of 180 grained ammo shooting.
Does that sound right?
Does the same factory 40 cal. 165 grain ammo kick harder that 180 grain ammo.?
I've usually been target shooting my various semi-auto pistols with Wal-Mart Winchester white box 40 cal. 180 grain ammo.
But this last time when I went to buy some,they were out of those, but had Winchester white box 165 grain ammo instead, so I bought them.
The recoil on the 165 grained ammo at the range seemed to have a noticiblly harder/sharper recoil muzzel flip than all my previous 180 grained ammo firings had felt when fired over that part few months of 180 grained ammo shooting.
Does that sound right?
Does the same factory 40 cal. 165 grain ammo kick harder that 180 grain ammo.?
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Usually, the heavier pill is going to produce more recoil...I don't know why you perceived more recoil with the lighter bullet. 0 -
That was my thought too.
But somewhere in my reading, it seems I read something about a ballistics paradox that it takes slower burning powder weight grained bullet down the range to the target.
I never really understood that, but reread that statement 3 times(because it seemed the reverse would be the case). Was that a mistype, or might sometime like that be involved here.
I would have guessed both Winchester rounds used the same powder, but matbe not???0 -
first_timer - This is not meant to put you down. I really would like to know:
Do you have a physical impairment that makes you sensitive to recoil ?? Is it that you just don't like it ??
I ask that because you have referred to muzzle flip and recoil, often. After initially shooting a handgun, most shooters become insensitive to recoil, for the most part, and the .40 you have been shooting is not noted for having severe recoil in any loading.
If there is anything we can do to help you out, we will.
Doug0 -
I have several .40 S&W chambered pistols. In shooting .40s for about the last 11 years, I have noticed the same effect. My take is that the White Box 180 gr. ammo is down loaded and has a lower than "standard" muzzle velocity for the weight (some where around 900 fps in a 4" pressure barrel). The 165 gr. ammo has, of course, a higher velocity (some where around 1050 fps in the same barrel). Higher velocity results in more "bullet torque" - the force generated when the bullet spirals down the rifled barrel. I also shoot some hot 155 gr and 135 gr self defense loads. Each of these has an increasingly higher velocity. Both show more muzzle torque than the 180 gr. It is possible to confuse the muzzle flip caused by torque with felt recoil which is the impulse (remember forces exert equal but opposite reactions) felt by the shooter. Impulse is a factor of weight and velocity of the projectile, but is damped to some degree by the mass of the gun and the recoil system, both of which take up some of the impulse energy (inertia must be overcome). The torque will cause the muzzle to rise to the left (with conventional right hand rifling) and be more pronounced with lighter handguns. You didn't say what type of pistol you are shooting, but I have noticed that my Steyr M-40, which is very light, exhibits the most torque effect. My EAA/Tanfoglio Witness is the heaviest of my pieces and while still noticeable, exhibits the least "flip". The most brutal "kicker" in my battery is an AMT Backup in .40S&W. Which brings up other factors, those of the grip angle, grip material and height of bore axis above the grip, all of which will add or subtract from felt recoil impulse. 0 -
Thank You, Doug.
You are most kind.
I never have much liked muzzle flip and wanted to keep it low as I can(as you know from other posts). As to a physical impediment, I have developed moderate arthritis in my wrists, but it is OK.
The recoil/flip for both of us felt with this new ammo us was UP and more noticibly to the LEFT using our right hands as our shooting hand. We were both being very careful to not use anything more the the first pad on out index fingers and squeeze slowly straight back. We more finger is in the trigger guard than that...I know the nature physics of pulling the finger would push the gun to the left from finger pressure. So we were not using anymore than the index finger first pad on the trigger.
My suspicion is that my grip is not exactly right as I was taught, and I've varied away from proper basics.
Another thing was that I was sensitive to my daughter's handling recoil, since Sunday was first time she's shot pistols.
But Doug, my suspicion is that I need to either try shooting one handed(and not get the leftward recoils(only up flip)....or/and to relearn the best "EQUAL" hand pressure grip on the pistol between the gun hand and my supporting hand to counteract that noticibly left recoil...and only up again.0 -
All 40. cal.....Glock 23, SteyrMA-1, Taurus Millenium Pro(subcompact), Stoeger/Beretta Cougar.
All polymer framed, except for my Berette/Stoeger Cougar steel pistol, 32 Magnum.
How would someone compensate for that left and up, recoil we both felt withe the 165 grained Winchester ammo.?(besides going back to 180 grain?)
thanks too!0 -
When buying factory ammo, HOW can I tell in the box how Hot the round is?
I'd like to buy a 165 or 155 grain bullet with the same powder as the usual 180 grain is packed with(900 fps)
OR is that a soecial order item and cost more?
How can I tell before buying it?
(I know have 1000 rounds left of the hot 165 grain Winchester ammo. I'd rather I hadn't paid for now.0 -
There is no need to compensate. The bullet has left the barrel before any recoil can affect its' flight.
As far as grip, that is part of the overall shooting of the weapon called "stance".
A two handed grip is the currently preferred method of obtaining the best accuracy from the offhand(standing) position.
You say that you guys are right-handed, so here is the approach I would use to try do do it correctly:
1) firmly grasp the grip with the web of your right hand as high in the grip portion as you can get it.
2) place your left hand over your right. Do not lace your fingers
3) turn your body and feet approximately 45 degrees to an imaginary line from the target to you, and bend your knees slightly.
4) raise your arms to level the weapon at the target
5) while pushing firmly out with your right hand with a straight arm, pull firmly toward yourself with your left hand.
6) through your dominant eye, place the front sight level with the notch on the rear sight, with the sights being at the six o'clock position on the target.
7) at THIS time, put your trigger finger inside the trigger guard, resting the pad of your index finger on the trigger.
8) take a breath and slowly exhale about half of it.
9) take any slack up in the trigger, and then squeeze the trigger until the weapon fires.
10) while extended, place the firearm on "safe"
11) lower the pistol toward the ground to about a 45 degree angle before continuing to repeat the above and shoot some more.
What I have described is called the Weaver stance. Another preferred stance is called the "Isosceles" stance. Which I will explai if you want me to.
If your trigger sqeeze is smooth and steady, you should be surprised each time the weapon discharges.
To practice your grip, checking to see that the weapon is empty, you can balance a quarter on the front of the muzzle, just behind the front sight and squeeze the trigger til the hammer drops. The quarter should not fall from the barrel.
ALWAYS use proper safety precations, and go slowly to begin with. Never cross anyone's body with the muzzle of your weapon.
I'm sure that I missed a lot, and some the guys will disagree with my methods, but there you have the best I can do.
Doug0 -
thanks, Doug.
My notice of the "left recoil" hasn't affected my accuracy. I'm still making about 5" shot groups at 15 yrs. But it's "difference" in direction of recoil/flip seemed strange being strong and to the left, not just up as with the 180s.
I think the "Isosceles" stance is what I was taught originally.
I think I may have bypassed something in it and possibly(although pretty staight forward) and developed incorrect habits with it.
Could you please explain that one for me as you use it?
thanks
(by the way...in that Weaver stance, which way was the 45 degrees pointed?....do you mean right handed shooters move their right foot to the rear, 45 degrees to your shoulders?)0 -
I've never noticed anything but the bullet grain and caliber shown on factory ammo boxes.
Is there something about fps shown somewhere also?
Would I have to email, or write the Winchester and other factories to get a fps rating for each caliber grained model bullet?0 -
"(by the way...in that Weaver stance, which way was the 45 degrees pointed?....do you mean right handed shooters move their right foot to the rear, 45 degrees to your shoulders?)".....YEP.
Isosceles - The only difference that I'm aware of, is that ones body is square with the target, both arms extended, knees slightly bent. everything else applies. As you engage different targets, your arms remain in the same relationship to your upper body. To change targets, you swivel your upper body, like the turret on a tank. I believe that this was the first two-handed method taught by the FBI, but I'm not certain. I believe that the Weaver is now taught.
One handed combat shooting was used by law enforcement, the military, and when dueling. There are occasions when that method needs to be used in combat, and also shooting with one's weak hand (left handed for right hand dominant shooters).
As you get into it, you'll find that there is always more to learn. You will begin to build muscle memory, and these techniques will become more and more natural.
Involvement with firearms becomes a way of life. At some we all had to deal with the question "will I be able to take the life of another human being??"
And that, my friend is a question we all must face, and hopefully we will never need to find our.
Just holler if there is anything else we can do.
Doug0 -
Thank you, Doug.
Yes, those were the 1st words out of my CHL instructors mouth in training. And I hadn't forgotten the serious reality of the situation.
And those hand grips, stances and techniques were also what he instructed. Thank you for bringing them back "into focus"...especially pulling the supporting hand firmly backward.
(I'd modified that and a few other basics into "my own slightly different methods")
I think 32 Magnum solved my confusion too. By explaining why different rounds/ loads, even ones of lighter grained bullets make the handgun react differently...ind in ths case more violently and move in different dirrection. I was completely mystified about the pistol pulling left in recoil when firing a lighter bullet.
thank you, friends0
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