Skip to main content
Help Center Community Shop

FFL question about traces by the ATF.......

Locust Fork
Traces are a normal event with any FFL. They fax over a trace....I look up what they want and fax back the paper along with a copy of the 4473. This must have something to do with a report the distributors realease to the ATF....because it seems I have no traces whatsoever and then several out of nowhere.

The question I have regards a new version of the trace request from the national tracing center (of the ATF.) They have revised the form a bit and rather than a simple trace....it asks a couple extra questions that seem to be out of the allowable things they are to ask.

They now ask....
Has this buyer previously bought from your store? and.....
Is this buyer known to you?


I understand that they are in charge of everything and we can't do much to stop the hungry monster from yanking the chain they have us attached to. BUT....there are rules to the details and I am unaware of just how this recent change is wrong, but it seems to cross a line. I think they are alowed to do traces on firearms, but to ask these new details seems they are searching for information without a cause to do so.

Traces are normally NOT done for any actual reason at all. I think it is done more for a check to be certain the FFL holder is doing everything correctly. Most of the traces I have been required to do have been rediculous.....I don't mind doing them, but are obviously for no real reason at all.
0

Comments

7 comments

Date Votes
  • Captplaid
    They now ask....
    Has this buyer previously bought from your store?


    Bought what?? A firearm or a pack of chitletts?



    and.....
    Is this buyer known to you?

    That depends on what the definition of "known" is.
    Does LF truly "know" Jacob or any of us here.
    That "know-it-all" guy that drive away customers is probably "known" to here, but who else is a yes.


    Are "yes" good answers or "bad" answers? A guy who is a repeat buyer could be interpreted as a "straw buyer". By selling to a "known" buyer does that mean the seller is knowingly "exports" to New York City.

    Could a misinterpretation of these questions be considered "lying" to a federal investigator?


    It's a good thing idiots like me don't have an FFL. We'd probably bog down the entire ATF system.
    0
  • A J Christ
    quote:Originally posted by Captplaid
    They now ask....



    It's a good thing idiots like me don't have an FFL. We'd probably bog down the entire ATF system.




    +1
    0
  • MVP
    The traces I have had have been all by Phone and they give me a day to get the minimal information about the buyer and I call them back and tell the lady (usually a lady) on phone.
    I have never been faxed a form to fill out.
    Usually just two 30 second phone calls to handle a trace.
    0
  • Locust Fork
    We have given info over the phone when they were actually looking for information that was being used in an investigation. I don't mind doing these traces when it is because of those circumstances. These faxes have something to do with spot checking our system on most instances. I just have a problem with the whole "gathering information" without a purpose for doing so.

    I wouldn't want to go into a store and purchase a firearm knowing that the ATF might just ask about my purchase along with any past business I might have done with that store. Getting all of this info simply out of the fact the ATF is checking on a handgun sold by a distributor and it just so happened to be the gun I purchased.

    Only because a firearm is sold....I am completely convinced that these traces are the list they are compiling. Since its not supposed to happen (a list of firearms and owners) just why all the traces....that are NOT for a criminal case or any investigation.
    0
  • iwannausername
    IIRC in the early 90s the 4473 form had a spot for ID and an option for "this individual is known to me"

    Of course, the kitchen table FFL guy I used back then never checked that box, even when his own son bought something....
    0
  • David Nunn
    I have participated in several traces, always by phone. Sometimes I was able to pull a file and give the ATF the information they wanted immediately, but other times I had to call back.

    Most recently, I have been questioned about a gun I sold here on Gunbroker. I got a phone call from an ATF guy in Arizona, asking me to fax him documents related to a particular sale. This was a dealer-to-dealer transfer, so I sent him a copy of the receipt and a copy of the FFL. He was happy. Then...

    I got a SUBPOENA by mail to appear in Unites States District Court in Arizona, and to bring the documents with me. The attached letter stated that the judge in the case MIGHT accept a notarized sworn statement that the documents were accurate, and that they were kept as part of normal business. I sent the statement and am hoping I don't have to go to Arizona.

    It seems some bonehead was bidding and buying up cheap handguns. (Another reason not to sell them I reckon.) The one I sold was a Davis .32 and it was $31.00. I had started it at a buck with no reserve, and it sold for less than expected. I don't have the details, but it seems he was getting cheap guns shipped to his dealer, having them transferred to him, and then re-selling them without a license.

    The ATF guy assured me that I did nothing wrong, and I know I didn't, but it bothers me to have been a small innocent part of this sort of thing.
    0
  • AZEX
    Always by phone.

    3 times in 8 years.

    Once was a tough find.

    Once was an easy find.

    Once I found out that the receiver was missing from my inventory. So I did a theft/loss report and faxed it in.

    Still don't know what ever happened to that receiver. I had an invoice for it's arrival, but none for it's disposition. I hate that kinda stuff.

    D.
    0

Please sign in to leave a comment.

Recent Activity