Evolution's case evolves
By Ann Gibbons,
ANN GIBBONS is the author of "The First Human: The Race to Discover Our Earliest Ancestors," and a contributing correspondent for Science.
IT'S BEEN A TOUGH month for creationists. On April 6, evolutionary biologists announced the discovery of a fossil of Tiktaalik roseae, a giant fish whose fins were evolving into limbs when it died 375 million years ago. This scaly creature of the sea was in transition to becoming a land animal, the discoverers wrote in Nature.
A day later, molecular biologists reported in Science that they had traced the origin of a key stress hormone, found in humans and all vertebrates, back 450 million years to a primitive gene that arose before animals emerged from oceans onto land.
Both teams of scientists stressed that their findings contradicted creationists - and demonstrated how small, incremental steps over millions of years could indeed produce complex life, ranging from the intricate mechanisms of a hormone molecule to the assembly of limbs from fins.
But even as they were touting their results as yet another validation of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, biochemist Michael Behe, a leading advocate of "intelligent design," dismissed the hormone discovery as "piddling."
As if in response to Behe's challenge, paleoanthropologists raised the stakes last week with yet another example of evolution unfolding in our own lineage. In the journal Nature, a team of researchers from UC Berkeley and Ethiopia found an "intermediate" member of the human family that they say unambiguously fills the gap in the fossil record between two early types of human ancestors. Australopithecus anamensis was a creature the size of an orangutan that walked upright in the Rift Valley of eastern Africa about 4 million years ago, more than 2 million years after the human lineage split from the ancestor we share with chimpanzees
The team found the species in a mile-deep stack of sediment in northeastern Ethiopia, which has become the Comstock Lode of human evolution. Across 11 separate layers, researchers unearthed several types of early human ancestors, with the anamensis bones sandwiched between layers containing two other species - Australopithecus afarensis, the species whose most famous member was the diminutive skeleton Lucy that lived 3.2 million years ago; and the 4.4-million-year-old Ardipithecus ramidus. (They also found the oldest known member of our species, Homo sapiens, in a layer dating back 155,000 years.) When researchers compared the teeth and bones of these various human ancestors, they saw a clear path from primitive to modern.
But lest you assume that the transition inevitably yields "intelligent" design, just think about the more problematic aspects of our own anatomy: How about arthritic backs and knees? Or the size of the birth canal in modern humans. Lucy's species had an easier time 3.2 million years ago delivering babies who would grow up to have brains the size of a large orange, compared with modern mothers whose infants grow brains four times larger. We did evolve wider pelvises, but these also mean that more force is put on the sides of our knees, which any soccer player can tell you is not optimal design.
The point is that all these changes evolved over time in response to specific environments. The competing demands of an expanding brain and upright walking, for example, had to be balanced and accommodated in a basic body plan that persisted for millions of years in apes that spent most of their time hanging out in trees.
From what they have seen so far, the discoverers of these fossils think that the evolution from Ardipithecus to A. anamensis was a rapid affair. It took only 200,000 years, if they are right, for natural selection to refit one early hominid body into a new model. In the realm of deep time, that may seem like a blink of the eye. But in human terms, that would allow for at least 13,000 generations - enough time for genetic mutations to change the shape and size of teeth, and for individuals to learn how to use them. More of their offspring would survive as a result, and the trait would become fixed in later populations.
Although there are still gaps in the fossil record, many dots have already been connected on the branches of the human family tree, connecting Lucy to our own genus Homo, to our Neanderthal cousins and maybe even to a dwarf-like species that lived on an Indonesian island just 18,000 years ago. Together these species of human ancestors reveal different ways to become a human. You can see evolution's work in the fins of the ancient Tiktaalik or the stress hormones of the venerable lamprey fish. You can also look in the mirror.
ANN GIBBONS is the author of "The First Human: The Race to Discover Our Earliest Ancestors," and a contributing correspondent for Science.
IT'S BEEN A TOUGH month for creationists. On April 6, evolutionary biologists announced the discovery of a fossil of Tiktaalik roseae, a giant fish whose fins were evolving into limbs when it died 375 million years ago. This scaly creature of the sea was in transition to becoming a land animal, the discoverers wrote in Nature.
A day later, molecular biologists reported in Science that they had traced the origin of a key stress hormone, found in humans and all vertebrates, back 450 million years to a primitive gene that arose before animals emerged from oceans onto land.
Both teams of scientists stressed that their findings contradicted creationists - and demonstrated how small, incremental steps over millions of years could indeed produce complex life, ranging from the intricate mechanisms of a hormone molecule to the assembly of limbs from fins.
But even as they were touting their results as yet another validation of Charles Darwin's theory of evolution, biochemist Michael Behe, a leading advocate of "intelligent design," dismissed the hormone discovery as "piddling."
As if in response to Behe's challenge, paleoanthropologists raised the stakes last week with yet another example of evolution unfolding in our own lineage. In the journal Nature, a team of researchers from UC Berkeley and Ethiopia found an "intermediate" member of the human family that they say unambiguously fills the gap in the fossil record between two early types of human ancestors. Australopithecus anamensis was a creature the size of an orangutan that walked upright in the Rift Valley of eastern Africa about 4 million years ago, more than 2 million years after the human lineage split from the ancestor we share with chimpanzees
The team found the species in a mile-deep stack of sediment in northeastern Ethiopia, which has become the Comstock Lode of human evolution. Across 11 separate layers, researchers unearthed several types of early human ancestors, with the anamensis bones sandwiched between layers containing two other species - Australopithecus afarensis, the species whose most famous member was the diminutive skeleton Lucy that lived 3.2 million years ago; and the 4.4-million-year-old Ardipithecus ramidus. (They also found the oldest known member of our species, Homo sapiens, in a layer dating back 155,000 years.) When researchers compared the teeth and bones of these various human ancestors, they saw a clear path from primitive to modern.
But lest you assume that the transition inevitably yields "intelligent" design, just think about the more problematic aspects of our own anatomy: How about arthritic backs and knees? Or the size of the birth canal in modern humans. Lucy's species had an easier time 3.2 million years ago delivering babies who would grow up to have brains the size of a large orange, compared with modern mothers whose infants grow brains four times larger. We did evolve wider pelvises, but these also mean that more force is put on the sides of our knees, which any soccer player can tell you is not optimal design.
The point is that all these changes evolved over time in response to specific environments. The competing demands of an expanding brain and upright walking, for example, had to be balanced and accommodated in a basic body plan that persisted for millions of years in apes that spent most of their time hanging out in trees.
From what they have seen so far, the discoverers of these fossils think that the evolution from Ardipithecus to A. anamensis was a rapid affair. It took only 200,000 years, if they are right, for natural selection to refit one early hominid body into a new model. In the realm of deep time, that may seem like a blink of the eye. But in human terms, that would allow for at least 13,000 generations - enough time for genetic mutations to change the shape and size of teeth, and for individuals to learn how to use them. More of their offspring would survive as a result, and the trait would become fixed in later populations.
Although there are still gaps in the fossil record, many dots have already been connected on the branches of the human family tree, connecting Lucy to our own genus Homo, to our Neanderthal cousins and maybe even to a dwarf-like species that lived on an Indonesian island just 18,000 years ago. Together these species of human ancestors reveal different ways to become a human. You can see evolution's work in the fins of the ancient Tiktaalik or the stress hormones of the venerable lamprey fish. You can also look in the mirror.
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I have always wondered....who created the "stuff" that evolved ? 0 -
Why would you assume it was created? They say god is, was and ever shall be. What we know is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, but only transformed. Thus energy is, was and ever shall be. Matter is simply energy in another state (probably Mississippi [}:)][:p]). What evolved is matter, a form of energy. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by alledan
I don't worry anymore about evolution. I have to many worries for tomorrow!
Besides if man evolved from apes and monkeys then why are there still apes and monkeys... and yeah we already know about the liberal democrats!
Man did not evolve from apes or monkeys. The theory says both shared a common ancestor and DNA shows that to be true.
Huntingnerd333: quote: Yes. I believe there are dinosaurs on the earth today. Okay, you believe that. I guess you also believe dead people become deities too? (Fond of Greek and Roman mytholgies, are you? Or just fond of Zombie movies?) [:D][:D][:D]0 -
Huntingnerd33-
Just curious...in what school and particular class did you submit this paper? What grade did you receive?0 -
quote:Originally posted by He Dog
quote:Petrifying does not take more than 6000 years. Mt. Saint Helens erupted in 1980, as I'm sure you're well aware. The eruption blew thousands of trees into the nearby lake. Within 20 years,
Can you provide a reference for this assertion?
Watch Kent Hovind's Creation Seminar. That is where many of the facts came from. I can't get it in writing that I know of, but will keep looking. Granted, Hovind isn't exactly a model citizen with his taxes, but his claims have never been proven false. I don't know most of his figures off the top of my head but will try to dig them up.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
quote:Man did not evolve from apes or monkeys. The theory says both shared a common ancestor and DNA shows that to be true.
Then what did man evolve from? We have been taught in schools from day one that man evolved from monkeys/apes/whatever you want to call them. I find it curious that now you are saying "the theory says..." Now it's a theory?
quote:Originally posted by HAIRY
Huntingnerd333:Yes. I believe there are dinosaurs on the earth today. Okay, you believe that. I guess you also believe dead people become deities too? (Fond of Greek and Roman mytholgies, are you? Or just fond of Zombie movies?) [:D][:D][:D]
I don't believe that dead people become deities. If you attack my faith, please do so correctly. Jesus came back from the dead. He was a deity before, during, and after He died. Again, it takes just as much faith to believe that species can evolve into other species as believing in the Bible.
I do like zombie movies [;)] by the way, not so much the Greek & Roman myths.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hangfire
Huntingnerd33-
Just curious...in what school and particular class did you submit this paper? What grade did you receive?
I submitted this my junior year in high school. It was a requirement for the state standards and for graduation from the school and it was for my English class. I received a 98% on it, I missed some gramatical errors. Not a giant dissertation but not toilet paper either.
It was a ten page paper and we had to have if I remember correctly somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 sources as well.0 -
Thanks-
I was wondering if it was a private or public school, but since it was an english class in High school I understand.
BTW for your future reference, He Dog has socks that are over 6,000 years old!!!0 -
quote:Watch Kent Hovind's Creation Seminar. That is where many of the facts came from.
I believe you will find many are not facts, but misinterpretations. Trees are not made to stone in 20 years. The circumstances of petrification are specific and it takes far, far longer. What can be learned from Mount St. Helens is certainly interesting, but the argument that it demonstates the role of Catastrophe in the changing of the world so that millions of years of geologic history can be compressed into a few thousand is a straw man argument. I am certainly not attacking your faith, but I assume a good student does not want to be misinformed either.0 -
there doesn't have to be a theory of how the universe got started- the argument is whether the theory of creation is valid. which I find to be a misnomer, since creationists claim that they don't need facts to believe their theory. that makes it not a theory, but a belief and nothing more. if they want to elevate it to the status of theory, they need some facts to go along with it, which they don't have. yet at the same time, they'll pick at whatever inconsistencies they can find in the theory of evolution, to say that it's not a valid theory.
in other words, it's good enough for creationists to beleive their beleifs to call it a valid theory, but it's not good enough for evolutionists to simply beleive their theory, even though they at least have some facts to back up.
note that this parallels the disagreement between pro- and anti-gun people.
it should suffice to prove that the universe (and the earth along with it) was formed through phenomena described by astrophysics, and that the flora and fauna you see today were evolved through phenomena described by biology and the theory of evolution, to disprove the beliefs presented in the theory of creation. that is enough. there is no need to have a theory of where it all came from in the first place.
they say the earth is only a few thousand years old? we show it's much older.
they say that dinosaurs were put in rocks by demons to fool men? we show where they really came from.
they say that men did not evolve from anything? we show that they did.
they say that evolution does not occur? we show that it did and still does.0 -
Petrified wood is basically no longer wood. The cellular structure has been replaced by inorganic minerals. I believe this is true of dinosaur bones as well. Actual mammoth bones, even flesh, have been found frozen or buried in peat deposits. It wasn't that long ago that the theory of plate tectonics was questioned, but, it is now an accepted scientific fact.
I can accept someone's faith in God, but, to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old is nonsense.0 -
Not trying to attack anyone...
Watching the Christian fundies build (from scratch) an entire multi-million dollar field of pseudoscience (complete with learned experts, books, movies, documentaries, etc) to try and prove something that 10 seconds worth of common sense will disprove never ceases to amaze me. It's truly a study in propaganda, and how money and zeal are all you need to make anything seem realistic.
Next week, I'll start my $1-billion dollar campaign to prove that Chinamen are not human at all, but are monsters created by Satan to harass the faithful. I have four doctors, five geneticists, three anthropologists, and the dean of Bob Jones University lined up. [:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Bullzeye
Not trying to attack anyone...
Watching the Christian fundies build (from scratch) an entire multi-million dollar field of pseudoscience (complete with learned experts, books, movies, documentaries, etc) to try and prove something that 10 seconds worth of common sense will disprove never ceases to amaze me. It's truly a study in propaganda, and how money and zeal are all you need to make anything seem realistic.
Next week, I'll start my $1-billion dollar campaign to prove that Chinamen are not human at all, but are monsters created by Satan to harass the faithful. I have four doctors, five geneticists, three anthropologists, and the dean of Bob Jones University lined up. [:D]
Wow! Where do I send my contribution? LOL0 -
so who created the "stuff" that has evolved ? 0 -
Hi, Hairy !!
Genisis is allegorical.
Everyone is right.0 -
On observing new species:
* A new species of mosquito, the molestus form isolated in London's Underground, has speciated from Culex pipiens (Byrne and Nichols 1999; Nuttall 1998).
* Helacyton gartleri is the HeLa cell culture, which evolved from a human cervical carcinoma in 1951. The culture grows indefinitely and has become widespread (Van Valen and Maiorana 1991).
A similar event appears to have happened with dogs relatively recently. Sticker's sarcoma, or canine transmissible venerial tumor, is caused by an organism genetically independent from its hosts but derived from a wolf or dog tumor (Zimmer 2006; Murgia et al. 2006).
* Several new species of plants have arisen via polyploidy (when the chromosome count multiplies by two or more) (de Wet 1971). One example is Primula kewensis (Newton and Pellew 1929).
# Incipient speciation, where two subspecies interbreed rarely or with only little success, is common. Here are just a few examples:
* Rhagoletis pomonella, the apple maggot fly, is undergoing sympatric speciation. Its native host in North America is Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.), but in the mid-1800s, a new population formed on introduced domestic apples (Malus pumila). The two races are kept partially isolated by natural selection (Filchak et al. 2000).
* The mosquito Anopheles gambiae shows incipient speciation between its populations in northwestern and southeastern Africa (Fanello et al. 2003; Lehmann et al. 2003).
* Silverside fish show incipient speciation between marine and estuarine populations (Beheregaray and Sunnucks 2001).
# Ring species show the process of speciation in action. In ring species, the species is distributed more or less in a line, such as around the base of a mountain range. Each population is able to breed with its neighboring population, but the populations at the two ends are not able to interbreed. (In a true ring species, those two end populations are adjacent to each other, completing the ring.) Examples of ring species are
* the salamander Ensatina, with seven different subspecies on the west coast of the United States. They form a ring around California's central valley. At the south end, adjacent subspecies klauberi and eschscholtzi do not interbreed (Brown n.d.; Wake 1997).
* greenish warblers (Phylloscopus trochiloides), around the Himalayas. Their behavioral and genetic characteristics change gradually, starting from central Siberia, extending around the Himalayas, and back again, so two forms of the songbird coexist but do not interbreed in that part of their range (Irwin et al. 2001; Whitehouse 2001; Irwin et al. 2005).
* the deer mouse (Peromyces maniculatus), with over fifty subspecies in North America.
* many species of birds, including Parus major and P. minor, Halcyon chloris, Zosterops, Lalage, Pernis, the Larus argentatus group, and Phylloscopus trochiloides (Mayr 1942, 182-183).
* the American bee Hoplitis (Alcidamea) producta (Mayr 1963, 510).
* the subterranean mole rat, Spalax ehrenbergi (Nevo 1999).
# Evidence of speciation occurs in the form of organisms that exist only in environments that did not exist a few hundreds or thousands of years ago. For example:
* In several Canadian lakes, which originated in the last 10,000 years following the last ice age, stickleback fish have diversified into separate species for shallow and deep water (Schilthuizen 2001, 146-151).
* Cichlids in Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria have diversified into hundreds of species. Parts of Lake Malawi which originated in the nineteenth century have species indigenous to those parts (Schilthuizen 2001, 166-176).
* A Mimulus species adapted for soils high in copper exists only on the tailings of a copper mine that did not exist before 1859 (Macnair 1989).
We can observe one species evolving into another, and we have0 -
quote:Originally posted by CA sucks
On observing new species:
* A new species of mosquito, the molestus form isolated in London's Underground, has speciated from Culex pipiens (Byrne and Nichols 1999; Nuttall 1998).
* Helacyton gartleri is the HeLa cell culture, which evolved from a human cervical carcinoma in 1951. The culture grows indefinitely and has become widespread (Van Valen and Maiorana 1991).
A similar event appears to have happened with dogs relatively recently. Sticker's sarcoma, or canine transmissible venerial tumor, is caused by an organism genetically independent from its hosts but derived from a wolf or dog tumor (Zimmer 2006; Murgia et al. 2006).
* Several new species of plants have arisen via polyploidy (when the chromosome count multiplies by two or more) (de Wet 1971). One example is Primula kewensis (Newton and Pellew 1929).
# Incipient speciation, where two subspecies interbreed rarely or with only little success, is common. Here are just a few examples:
* Rhagoletis pomonella, the apple maggot fly, is undergoing sympatric speciation. Its native host in North America is Hawthorn (Crataegus spp.), but in the mid-1800s, a new population formed on introduced domestic apples (Malus pumila). The two races are kept partially isolated by natural selection (Filchak et al. 2000).
* The mosquito Anopheles gambiae shows incipient speciation between its populations in northwestern and southeastern Africa (Fanello et al. 2003; Lehmann et al. 2003).
* Silverside fish show incipient speciation between marine and estuarine populations (Beheregaray and Sunnucks 2001).
# Ring species show the process of speciation in action. In ring species, the species is distributed more or less in a line, such as around the base of a mountain range. Each population is able to breed with its neighboring population, but the populations at the two ends are not able to interbreed. (In a true ring species, those two end populations are adjacent to each other, completing the ring.) Examples of ring species are
* the salamander Ensatina, with seven different subspecies on the west coast of the United States. They form a ring around California's central valley. At the south end, adjacent subspecies klauberi and eschscholtzi do not interbreed (Brown n.d.; Wake 1997).
* greenish warblers (Phylloscopus trochiloides), around the Himalayas. Their behavioral and genetic characteristics change gradually, starting from central Siberia, extending around the Himalayas, and back again, so two forms of the songbird coexist but do not interbreed in that part of their range (Irwin et al. 2001; Whitehouse 2001; Irwin et al. 2005).
* the deer mouse (Peromyces maniculatus), with over fifty subspecies in North America.
* many species of birds, including Parus major and P. minor, Halcyon chloris, Zosterops, Lalage, Pernis, the Larus argentatus group, and Phylloscopus trochiloides (Mayr 1942, 182-183).
* the American bee Hoplitis (Alcidamea) producta (Mayr 1963, 510).
* the subterranean mole rat, Spalax ehrenbergi (Nevo 1999).
# Evidence of speciation occurs in the form of organisms that exist only in environments that did not exist a few hundreds or thousands of years ago. For example:
* In several Canadian lakes, which originated in the last 10,000 years following the last ice age, stickleback fish have diversified into separate species for shallow and deep water (Schilthuizen 2001, 146-151).
* Cichlids in Lake Malawi and Lake Victoria have diversified into hundreds of species. Parts of Lake Malawi which originated in the nineteenth century have species indigenous to those parts (Schilthuizen 2001, 166-176).
* A Mimulus species adapted for soils high in copper exists only on the tailings of a copper mine that did not exist before 1859 (Macnair 1989).
We can observe one species evolving into another, and we have
+1
The hard physical evidence is overwhelming.0 -
quote:I can accept someone's faith in God, but, to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old is nonsense.
+1
when I was younger I believed in the Bible,I still have my beliefs but there is just way to much proof of the bible itself being corrupted by everyone from the early church to the Romans.The one thing you have to remember about the Bible is it was comprised/written by man not GOD0 -
I dont know any Christians who believe the earth is 6,000 years old. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by RunForest
I dont know any Christians who believe the earth is 6,000 years old.
One of our moderators does. [}:)][}:)]0 -
quote:RunForest
I dont know any Christians who believe the earth is 6,000 years old.
if you stay aroung this forum you will meet some,,[:0]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Huntingnerd33
Personally, I have done a lot of reasearch in this area, I did a research paper on this recently. There are two kinds of evolution. Micro-evolution and macro-evolution. Evolutionists have taken micro-evolution, which is simply animals adapting to their environment, and put all of evolution into that category. Macro-evolution, which is species changing into a different species, is false. There is NO proof that species have changed from one into another. None.
So says the 19-year old college sophmore. Come back when you earn that BS in Biology, Junior. I have a Bachelors of Science in Biology and a Masters as well, and I can tell you that you are full of crap, there IS PLENTY of proof of macroevolution. Have you heard of the FOSSIL RECORD? Or did those bones of human-like primates just appear out of thin air? Primates that walked upright, had brain sizes between modern humans and modern apes, had teeth that are intermediate between humans and apes, etc. You could fill a textbook with all the proof for macroevolution.
Did you know that human being have an inactivated gene in our genome that\ codes for tail development? That's right, we all have some ancient DNA left over from our monkey days. And in a few people, this gene gets turned back on and they grow a FUNCTIONAL TAIL. Look it up, the tail has muscle and vertebrae. Now why would modern human beings have this extra and unnecessary DNA that serves no purpose, excpet to cause a few rare people to be born with tails? Is that "intelligent design?" Or a remnant from our days as tree dwellers? Look it up, I'd like to hear how Creationists explain that one away.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sharpshooter039
quote:I can accept someone's faith in God, but, to believe that the earth is 6,000 years old is nonsense.
+1
when I was younger I believed in the Bible,I still have my beliefs but there is just way to much proof of the bible itself being corrupted by everyone from the early church to the Romans.The one thing you have to remember about the Bible is it was comprised/written by man not GOD
The Bible says that it is OK to rape a woman as long as you pay her father 50 silver sheckles as restitution. Is this the literal word of God? If it is, then God is one sick evil pervert. Also according to the Bible, not only are you allowed to own slaves, but you can even rape one of your female slaves if she catches your eye. Look it up, the Bible justifies all sorts of sick evil crap.0 -
And, then there's that pesky appendix. Satan must be responsible for that. 0 -
As long as evolution:
Fails the scientific method
fails the fossil record
fails to address irreducible complexity
fails to concede that what drives many of its proponents is
a-political agenda
b- anti-religious agenda (i.e. because of one's political or religious bias, some of them determine what to belief rather than the other way around) evolutionists will continue to push their faith in what they hope was but really wasn't.0 -
Warriorsfan: your presentation of the fossil record is as flawed as your misinterpretation of the Bible. In fact, many if not most evolutionists run away from the fossil record and embrace concepts like punctuated equilibrium (the hopeful monster theory) because they know that the fossil record isn't there. The skeletons of a few monkeys, scattered around the world, at different time periods and rock strata would not be your strongest position to argue evolution from... 0 -
WARRIORSFAN: Here is the passage you refered to.
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Classic095
WARRIORSFAN: Here is the passage you refered to.
Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NLT)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
Come one Classic... if you ar going to plagiarize then at the very least you should copy the ENTIRE thing....
from
http://libertarianwannabe.wordpress.com/2006/09/25/amazing-how-people-can-believe-this-anti-bible-stuff/
4) Laws of Rape (Deuteronomy 22:28-29 NAB)
If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father. Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.
What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker? Answer: God.
This is a standard translation error. The word is not Ansah which means raped, the word is Mifateh which means seduced. If you replace that word it makes a fair amount of sense especially when you consider the damage done to the father in terms of money.
you missed the last part where it states that it is a standard translation error. Or maybe you just got your information from Evilbible.com where you seem to get alot of your incorrect "knowledge" of the bible.
0 -
So says the article you posted. your:"This is a standard translation error. The word is not Ansah which means raped, the word is Mifateh which means seduced. If you replace that word it makes a fair amount of sense especially when you consider the damage done to the father in terms of money. ( and so many words have been added and replaced in the bible that it ceases to make sense)..
Posting of the above statement ( made by another thumper) is not in the bible.. Again another translation .
Golly kind of hard to swallow all the evil in the bible aint it.
Deut: 22: 27 , 28, 29
For he found her in the field, and the Betrothed damsel cried and there was none to save her.. (if she was seduced why would shs call out?)
If a man find a damsel that is a virgin and which is not Bethrothed and he LAY HOLD of her and lie with her and the be found..29 then that man shall give unto the damsels father fifty shekils ETC ETC.
That is froms Naves KJV study bible.. In another place in the same bible it says both will be stoned to death. the Victim and the rapist..
How many different accounts in how many bibles are there?? Too dang many for there to be any truth in any of them..0 -
HEY!
I thought you g*d fearing folks believed in The Bible.
Now you are bringing up all sorts of bibles and all sorts of translations. Exactly which is THE REAL TRANSLATION AND THE ONLY TRUE BIBLE? After all, your fate depends on using only the correct one; a counterfeit will getcha to h*ll.
LOL [}:)][}:)]0
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