a national shame
How did we ever get to this point? Why aren't people outraged? Why have so many people given away so many rights with a shrug? How did over a million American fighting men and women die to protect the Constitution and our rights, and now we give them up because it might save "just one life?"
Intel official: Say goodbye to privacy By PAMELA HESS, Associated Press Writer
As Congress debates new rules for government eavesdropping, a top intelligence official says it is time that people in the United States changed their definition of privacy.
Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, the principal deputy director of national intelligence. Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguards people's private communications and financial information.
Kerr's comments come as Congress is taking a second look at the Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act.
Lawmakers hastily changed the 1978 law last summer to allow the government to eavesdrop inside the United States without court permission, so long as one end of the conversation was reasonably believed to be located outside the U.S.
The original law required a court order for any surveillance conducted on U.S. soil, to protect Americans' privacy. The White House argued that the law was obstructing intelligence gathering because, as technology has changed, a growing amount of foreign communications passes through U.S.-based channels.
The most contentious issue in the new legislation is whether to shield telecommunications companies from civil lawsuits for allegedly giving the government access to people's private e-mails and phone calls without a FISA court order between 2001 and 2007.
Some lawmakers, including members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, appear reluctant to grant immunity. Suits might be the only way to determine how far the government has burrowed into people's privacy without court permission.
The committee is expected to decide this week whether its version of the bill will protect telecommunications companies. About 40 wiretapping suits are pending.
The central witness in a California lawsuit against AT&T says the government is vacuuming up billions of e-mails and phone calls as they pass through an AT&T switching station in San Francisco.
Mark Klein, a retired AT&T technician, helped connect a device in 2003 that he says diverted and copied onto a government supercomputer every call, e-mail, and Internet site access on AT&T lines.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation, which filed the class-action suit, claims there are as many as 20 such sites in the U.S.
The White House has promised to veto any bill that does not grant immunity from suits such as this one.
Congressional leaders hope to finish the bill by Thanksgiving. It would replace the FISA update enacted in August that privacy groups and civil libertarians say allows the government to read Americans' e-mails and listen to their phone calls without court oversight.
Kerr said at an October intelligence conference in San Antonio that he finds concerns that the government may be listening in odd when people are "perfectly willing for a green-card holder at an (Internet service provider) who may or may have not have been an illegal entrant to the United States to handle their data."
He noted that government employees face up to five years in prison and $100,000 in fines if convicted of misusing private information.
Millions of people in this country - particularly young people - already have surrendered anonymity to social networking sites such as MySpace and Facebook, and to Internet commerce. These sites reveal to the public, government and corporations what was once closely guarded information, like personal statistics and credit card numbers.
"Those two generations younger than we are have a very different idea of what is essential privacy, what they would wish to protect about their lives and affairs. And so, it's not for us to inflict one size fits all," said Kerr, 68. "Protecting anonymity isn't a fight that can be won. Anyone that's typed in their name on Google understands that."
"Our job now is to engage in a productive debate, which focuses on privacy as a component of appropriate levels of security and public safety," Kerr said. "I think all of us have to really take stock of what we already are willing to give up, in terms of anonymity, but (also) what safeguards we want in place to be sure that giving that doesn't empty our bank account or do something equally bad elsewhere."
Kurt Opsahl, a senior staff lawyer with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an advocacy group that defends online free speech, privacy and intellectual property rights, said Kerr's argument ignores both privacy laws and American history.
"Anonymity has been important since the Federalist Papers were written under pseudonyms," Opsahl said. "The government has tremendous power: the police power, the ability to arrest, to detain, to take away rights. Tying together that someone has spoken out on an issue with their identity is a far more dangerous thing if it is the government that is trying to tie it together."
Opsahl also said Kerr ignores the distinction between sacrificing protection from an intrusive government and voluntarily disclosing information in exchange for a service.
"There is something fundamentally different from the government having information about you than private parties," he said. "We shouldn't have to give people the choice between taking advantage of modern communication tools and sacrificing their privacy."
"It's just another 'trust us, we're the government,'" he said.
Intel official: Say goodbye to privacy By PAMELA HESS, Associated Press Writer
As Congress debates new rules for government eavesdropping, a top intelligence official says it is time that people in the United States changed their definition of privacy.
Privacy no longer can mean anonymity, says Donald Kerr, the principal deputy director of national intelligence. Instead, it should mean that government and businesses properly safeguards people's private communications and financial information.
Kerr's comments come as Congress is taking a second look at the Foreign Surveillance Intelligence Act.
Lawmakers hastily changed the 1978 law last summer to allow the government to eavesdrop inside the United States without court permission, so long as one end of the conversation was reasonably believed to be located outside the U.S.
The original law required a court order for any surveillance conducted on U.S. soil, to protect Americans' privacy. The White House argued that the law was obstructing intelligence gathering because, as technology has changed, a growing amount of foreign communications passes through U.S.-based channels.
The most contentious issue in the new legislation is whether to shield telecommunications companies from civil lawsuits for allegedly giving the government access to people's private e-mails and phone calls without a FISA court order between 2001 and 2007.
Some lawmakers, including members of the Senate Judiciary Committee, appear reluctant to grant immunity. Suits might be the only way to determine how far the government has burrowed into people's privacy without court permission.
The committee is expected to decide this week whether its version of the bill will protect telecommunications companies. About 40 wiretapping suits are pending.
The central witness in a California lawsuit against AT&T says the government is vacuuming up billions of e-mails and phone calls as they pass through an AT&T switching station in San Francisco.
Mark Klein, a retired AT&T technician, helped connect a device in 2003 that he says diverted and copied onto a government supercomputer every call, e-mail, and Internet site access on AT&T lines.
The Electronic Frontier Foundation, which filed the class-action suit, claims there are as many as 20 such sites in the U.S.
The White House has promised to veto any bill that does not grant immunity from suits such as this one.
Congressional leaders hope to finish the bill by Thanksgiving. It would replace the FISA update enacted in August that privacy groups and civil libertarians say allows the government to read Americans' e-mails and listen to their phone calls without court oversight.
Kerr said at an October intelligence conference in San Antonio that he finds concerns that the government may be listening in odd when people are "perfectly willing for a green-card holder at an (Internet service provider) who may or may have not have been an illegal entrant to the United States to handle their data."
He noted that government employees face up to five years in prison and $100,000 in fines if convicted of misusing private information.
Millions of people in this country - particularly young people - already have surrendered anonymity to social networking sites such as MySpace and Facebook, and to Internet commerce. These sites reveal to the public, government and corporations what was once closely guarded information, like personal statistics and credit card numbers.
"Those two generations younger than we are have a very different idea of what is essential privacy, what they would wish to protect about their lives and affairs. And so, it's not for us to inflict one size fits all," said Kerr, 68. "Protecting anonymity isn't a fight that can be won. Anyone that's typed in their name on Google understands that."
"Our job now is to engage in a productive debate, which focuses on privacy as a component of appropriate levels of security and public safety," Kerr said. "I think all of us have to really take stock of what we already are willing to give up, in terms of anonymity, but (also) what safeguards we want in place to be sure that giving that doesn't empty our bank account or do something equally bad elsewhere."
Kurt Opsahl, a senior staff lawyer with the Electronic Frontier Foundation, an advocacy group that defends online free speech, privacy and intellectual property rights, said Kerr's argument ignores both privacy laws and American history.
"Anonymity has been important since the Federalist Papers were written under pseudonyms," Opsahl said. "The government has tremendous power: the police power, the ability to arrest, to detain, to take away rights. Tying together that someone has spoken out on an issue with their identity is a far more dangerous thing if it is the government that is trying to tie it together."
Opsahl also said Kerr ignores the distinction between sacrificing protection from an intrusive government and voluntarily disclosing information in exchange for a service.
"There is something fundamentally different from the government having information about you than private parties," he said. "We shouldn't have to give people the choice between taking advantage of modern communication tools and sacrificing their privacy."
"It's just another 'trust us, we're the government,'" he said.
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quote:Originally posted by mlincoln
How did we ever get to this point? Why aren't people outraged? Why have so many people given away so many rights with a shrug?
APATHY. [V][V]0 -
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by mlincoln
How did we ever get to this point? Why aren't people outraged? Why have so many people given away so many rights with a shrug?
APATHY. [V][V]
Yep, truly sad.0 -
How sad and what an outrage[V][V][V] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by mlincoln
How did we ever get to this point? Why aren't people outraged? Why have so many people given away so many rights with a shrug? How did over a million American fighting men and women die to protect the Constitution and our rights, and now we give them up because it might save "just one life?"
"...the government is vacuuming up billions of e-mails and phone calls as they pass through an AT&T switching station in San Francisco."Now? This has been SOP for all major US communications carriers since the Truman administration. Do the research.
Remember we're coming up on a presidential election and lots of long term political manuevering is underway. Notice how the media isn't bothering to give the full story.0 -
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
quote:Originally posted by mlincoln
How did we ever get to this point? Why aren't people outraged? Why have so many people given away so many rights with a shrug?
APATHY. [V][V]
Sadly, true.[:(]0 -
Been said that people get the kind of government they deserve.
A rotten, corrupt people, apathetic in the extreme, underserving of freedom...
Will get a rotten, corrupt government..eager to relieve the people of what they have no need of..freedom, privacy, Rights......
Be sure, you'all, to run right down and vote for whomever wins the beauty contest, Nov. 08'.
And be damn sure to not vote in the Primary for the ONE man that vows to stop it.
quote:How did over a million American fighting men and women die to protect the Constitution and our rights, I think the figure was a half-million or so , in the Civil War...and the Constitution lost.0 -
How did we ever get to this point? Why aren't people outraged?
Two words, the Patriot Act. Most people aren't outraged because they supported enacting it and are loath to admit they knee jerked.
When the Reichstag burned, Hitler used it as an excuse to assume powers previously unobtainable. He focused peoples attention on the Communist and the Jews much like today's Arabs and Terrorist.
Welcome to the Fourth Reich! [xx(]0 -
I refuse to face it any longer. I only see the good things in life. All the crap the libs can come up with is invisible to me, because I'm too old. I can no longer handle it.
Isn't life rosy???[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]0 -
quote:All the crap the libs can come up with is
There indeed we have as fine an example of head-buried-in-the-sand one could POSSIBLE come up with.
Blaming the 'other guy' for YOUR guy being a rotten corrupt skank.0 -
quote:Originally posted by oldgunner
I refuse to face it any longer. I only see the good things in life. All the crap the libs can come up with is invisible to me, because I'm too old. I can no longer handle it.
Isn't life rosy???[:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
I hear ya bro. 65 years of having to face all the setbacks and crisis's that plague us. I gave ten years of my life serving my country in the Navy without a complaint. I'm tired of worrying about what is going to happen and just want to live out my remaining years in peace.[:)]
I will, however; go the voting booth and do what I can to screw the bad guys.[}:)]0 -
Wonder what things would be like now if Ross P.would have won a couple years ago? 0 -
Dammit Paulie, I'll go vote too, but that's all I'm going to put into it in the future. I'm frigging tired of it. I gave this country 21 years of my life. After all the promises, I got a tiny little pension out of it. I also got a promise of medical care for life, but so far I've paid almost a hundred bucks a month for that and have yet to have the first claim approved...If it wasn't for my second career, I'd be in very bad poop right now. My wonderful country is giving me nothing for my lifetime of service.
Highball, you can kiss right here....I'm going to just hang on and live as long as I can, then I'm going to die, and all the GD politicians on this planet are going to care so very damn much when that happens....0 -
quote:I hear ya bro. 65 years of having to face all the setbacks and crisis's that plague us. I gave ten years of my life serving my country in the Navy without a complaint. I'm tired of worrying about what is going to happen and just want to live out my remaining years in peace
Allow me to translate a bit here.
"We have stood by as rotten corrupt men destroyed the Constitution..indeed, we have aided and abeted them by voting for anti-American slugs over and over. We have docily watched as the Elite moved the country steadily towards tyranny...as we pretended we were fighting for freedom."0 -
Highball..How old are you? Three?? I've voted my ass right into the ground for fifty years. All I have to show for it is silly little naive twerps like you. Go do it..I wish you the best, but come back and show me how bad I've done in about fifty more years from now when you have a bit of knowledge. Until then, here's the other side... 0 -
Sorry, Gunner...wrong again. I am about the same age as you.
The difference between you and I ?
I recognize the country sliding into the toilet because you and I didn't hold our leaders feet to the fire.
I have recognised for many years that the people we 'vote on' are determined to destroy freedom here in America..that they are sold-out garbage.
I recognize that lots of men went overseas..still do..to fight for 'American freedom'..and come back home to a million laws designed to limit that freedom. Indeed..those fighting men crawl on their bellies to beg permission to buy a gun..the basis of freedom.
You, by your post, just don't care.0 -
I care more than you know. But I've given up. You haven't, and I admire you for your stubbornness. I hope you turn out to be right in the end...
I apologize for the smart ass remarks. I do respect you, but I don't think you're doing anything useful.0 -
Oldgunner;
Not a problem. I figured that we agree more then we disagree. However..I use the discussion to try and get a point across...not necessarily even to you.
And give up ? Not a chance...while I still breath. The bas+++++ are going to have to kill me..and I bet your remarks are just surface remarks, also...
From one old timer to another..keep your powder dry.0 -
Think of it this way.....how many Americans are going to keep using Social Security Numbers when Social Security disappears next year or the year after that?
Mr. Bush had to borrow almost $1 Trillion to extend the US Federal Deficit...problem is no country would loan him money. So he stole it from you.....it's being sucked from the Social Security accounts.
Why would people keep using that 'SSN' after let's say 2008?
It is the only means for them to amass information and pin it on one human.
You can change your name tomorrow. You can also change your address. Without a SSN ID number.....their plans for global domination are foiled.0 -
Have you heard about REAL ID...due for 2008 ?
I reckon you can walk, of course....0 -
LOL...yeah I have.
All new drivers licenses will have North America on them...some states already started...and Mexico will be given complete access to the database.
That last part is funny. I'll just drive down to Mexico and get myself 5-6 new ID's/alius's.
Mexican tourism from the world is going to explode for 2008.0
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