Restoration advice for heirloom guns
The guns and story are in this post
The brief recap: these are three heirloom guns from Africa, all over 65 years old, and not in great shape.
I've fired the air rifle. The Westley Richards .450 is said to work, but I won't fire it until I've had a gunsmith look at it. The Mannlicher-Schoennauer has an unreliable repair to the broken stock and also needs to have the action checked by a gunsmith.
What should I do with these guns? I'm soliciting opinions. I can't afford to do anything with them for a while so I figure I'll gather advice and mull it over until I can afford to do something (or nothing).
I already have opinions ranging from: "they're fine machines and should be restored to fine working condition," to: "their present condition reflects their history, so you shouldn't touch them." Right now, the balance of the advice I've received says: restore them.
Restored antiques lose their value. On the other hand, these are heirlooms and in a perfect world will never be sold. They're a little bit of family history. So is it better to leave that Mannlicher as it is, with a repair that prevents a person to take it down even for cleaning? Or should I get the stock properly repaired, or even replaced--thereby destroying the original "repair"?
To the extent possible, I'll clean the rifles and oil them. But by not restoring them properly, am I not allowing them to disintegrate?
What would you do? I'm leaning towards restoration.
The brief recap: these are three heirloom guns from Africa, all over 65 years old, and not in great shape.
I've fired the air rifle. The Westley Richards .450 is said to work, but I won't fire it until I've had a gunsmith look at it. The Mannlicher-Schoennauer has an unreliable repair to the broken stock and also needs to have the action checked by a gunsmith.
What should I do with these guns? I'm soliciting opinions. I can't afford to do anything with them for a while so I figure I'll gather advice and mull it over until I can afford to do something (or nothing).
I already have opinions ranging from: "they're fine machines and should be restored to fine working condition," to: "their present condition reflects their history, so you shouldn't touch them." Right now, the balance of the advice I've received says: restore them.
Restored antiques lose their value. On the other hand, these are heirlooms and in a perfect world will never be sold. They're a little bit of family history. So is it better to leave that Mannlicher as it is, with a repair that prevents a person to take it down even for cleaning? Or should I get the stock properly repaired, or even replaced--thereby destroying the original "repair"?
To the extent possible, I'll clean the rifles and oil them. But by not restoring them properly, am I not allowing them to disintegrate?
What would you do? I'm leaning towards restoration.
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You cant polish a turd. That being said you might not have turds. do some research on your guns and see what they are going for in mint condition. then cut that by 60% and do the math. is it worth it? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by cartod
You cant polish a turd. That being said you might not have turds. do some research on your guns and see what they are going for in mint condition. then cut that by 60% and do the math. is it worth it?
Both of the rifles are worth more in their current conditions than the restorations would cost. In mint condition, their values would more than double.
But that's beside the point. The question I'm asking pits history against functionality and (to a lesser extent) preservation.0 -
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by cartod
You cant polish a turd. That being said you might not have turds. do some research on your guns and see what they are going for in mint condition. then cut that by 60% and do the math. is it worth it?
Both of the rifles are worth more in their current conditions than the restorations would cost. In mint condition, their values would more than double.
But that's beside the point. The question I'm asking pits history against functionality and (to a lesser extent) preservation.
Oil'em up and stick them in a closet. I dont think thats what you want to hear. WHY restore them, if you arent going to use them???0 -
I would not restore them....just get them in the best shape you can without making any further alterations to them. I have never been one to count these types of firearms as "shooters." With all of the firearms you have to choose from....why take a chance by actually shooting something that could harm you if it proved unable to be fired...AND if it manages to be safe to shoot you still take the chance that it falls apart loosing any value it may have had if you had only preserved them.
Buy a Steyr or a Remington...put a Zeiss on it...fire away!!! Enherit a family heirloom....oil it from time to time and hang it up somewhere. I think its a rule or something. If you break these rules I think you have to let your wife sell some type of cherished item of yours at her next yard sale.....or your neighbor's kids get to cut your hair (I can't remember which.)0 -
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
I would not restore them....just get them in the best shape you can without making any further alterations to them. I have never been one to count these types of firearms as "shooters." With all of the firearms you have to choose from....why take a chance by actually shooting something that could harm you if it proved unable to be fired...AND if it manages to be safe to shoot you still take the chance that it falls apart loosing any value it may have had if you had only preserved them.
Buy a Steyr or a Remington...put a Zeiss on it...fire away!!! Enherit a family heirloom....oil it from time to time and hang it up somewhere. I think its a rule or something. If you break these rules I think you have to let your wife sell some type of cherished item of yours at her next yard sale.....or your neighbor's kids get to cut your hair (I can't remember which.)
OK, I can start to work with that advice, but you've raised another question for me. Perhaps I don't understand the meaning of the word "restore" with respect to firearms. I'm thinking: clean up the metal as well as I can (possibly including re-bluing), replace or repair the broken stock, and refinish the worn stocks (including removing those dings that are removeable). Does that constitute getting them in the best shape I can without altering them, or does that constitute altering them? I can't imagine going beyond that (e.g. I wouldn't consider rebarreling any of them).0 -
IMO Leave them alone. oil and store or display,...the wear on the guns is part of their history.....and can make them interesting to look at.......they are your guns now, do as you wish...patina is a popular term in antique collecting, and refinishing, very very seldom adds to the value of any item and usually detracts from it. Have fun with them. 0 -
If you even rub on them briskly you are taking the chance that...(EVEN IF you haven't re-done them).....people will think you have because the little microscopic scuffs in the wood. With an antique, anything you do that takes away from it being in the original state takes away from it collector's value.
When you are trying to decide what direction to go in...you have to first decide is this for YOU....or is this an investment? As an investment you should NEVER re-blue or refinish any part of an antique....because collectors want it as original as possible. Don't even turn a screw because they will be able to tell it was turned and will curse you as if you had spit on their food or something.
If this is a gun you want to keep...and you want to do something to....go right ahead (but you cannot go back once you have re-blued a gun or refinished a stock.) Its like buying a silk shirt and then you decide you really want to wax your car with that shirt. Shure its your shirt and it may spread wax better than any rag you ever used to wax a car.....but you can't wear it to the movies later (no matter what you do you can't go back.)
I have sold many "collectors" guns.....and even the older, worn, used and "iffy" guns were picked over by the buyers like they were looking for some type of cancer as they hunted to be certain whatever I was selling had not been "messed with." If you want it to be worth more....keep it original. If you aren't selling it do what you want to it (but you will find that the collectors will make a voo-doo doll of you if they find out.)0 -
quote:Originally posted by Locust Fork
If you even rub on them briskly you are taking the chance that...(EVEN IF you haven't re-done them).....people will think you have because the little microscopic scuffs in the wood. With an antique, anything you do that takes away from it being in the original state takes away from it collector's value.
When you are trying to decide what direction to go in...you have to first decide is this for YOU....or is this an investment? As an investment you should NEVER re-blue or refinish any part of an antique....because collectors want it as original as possible. Don't even turn a screw because they will be able to tell it was turned and will curse you as if you had spit on their food or something.
If this is a gun you want to keep...and you want to do something to....go right ahead (but you cannot go back once you have re-blued a gun or refinished a stock.) Its like buying a silk shirt and then you decide you really want to wax your car with that shirt. Shure its your shirt and it may spread wax better than any rag you ever used to wax a car.....but you can't wear it to the movies later (no matter what you do you can't go back.)
I have sold many "collectors" guns.....and even the older, worn, used and "iffy" guns were picked over by the buyers like they were looking for some type of cancer as they hunted to be certain whatever I was selling had not been "messed with." If you want it to be worth more....keep it original. If you aren't selling it do what you want to it (but you will find that the collectors will make a voo-doo doll of you if they find out.)
Oh, man, that was soooooooo NOT the answer I wanted. But I think you just told me what I already knew. I must now ponder my role in the family history of these guns. I'll never sell them, and I hope that none of their future owners ever do, either. But the future owners might regret what I do to them.
Don't bother to answer this question, but how in the hell is cleaning a bore any different from refinishing a stock? Collectors suck.0 -
Yes they do....but they typically have money.... and we all benefit from a "collector" paying WAY too much for a gun at times (because it makes ours worth more also.) Its like having Martha Stewart move into the house next door....you really want to choke her with your bare hands...but your house is worth more because she moved in (but only if you don't raise pigs in the front yard....(even if you REALLY like pigs.) 0 -
Another two cents -
I think we all agree that these guns are a part of family history. Further, it seems that they'll stay within the family into the foreseeable future. And it appears that they'll remain retired.
Based on this knowledge...
Restoration will remove the history of the gun and is not by any means a sound financial move. Assuming the guns got to their present condition due to long and valued service, I doubt that "restoration" would be a good move.
Repair is entirely a different procedure. Stabilizing degraded components, repair of unsafe parts, or replacement of missing pieces should be encouraged. For history's sake I'd record the repairs and add them to the history of the guns. This is fair and honest.
Cleaning is misunderstood. There's nothing wrong with running a bore brush through a barrel. Nothing wrong with a rag soaked in bore cleaner. And nothing wrong by following with a lightly oiled patch.
The same idea applies to the exterior of the piece. Surface rust may be addressed with a bit of brass wool, but not to the point of removing finish. Murphy's Oil Soap is a great stock cleaner. The point being to remove dirt, but not remove finish. DON'T give in to the temptation to polish brass or do a deep scrub.
Remember... These guns came to you in their present condition due to a history you wish remembered. Their condition is the ambassador to that history, the only surviving connection. Preserve it. Don't erase it.0 -
I'm of the opinion that since they are heirloom guns they should be left in their present condition and put on display in your home for others to see and as conversation peices. That's what I would do and have done. 0 -
...Your call. If you can find someone who is a restoration specialist with these types of guns, to do the job right; you may be surprised at the wait and the $$$$$. The type of "specialist" that comes to mind is Doug Turnbull.
...Or you can take them to Joe Blow and have it half-azzed and only spend $$$$, or leave them as they are...[;)]
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