why are some ffl's scared to send copy to non ffl
why are some ffl's scared to send a copy of ffl to a non ffl. what can possibly happen. i have two people tell me this all the other times it was no big deal. now i plan on sending this gun through a ffl dealer because it is a pistol and its just easier that way but now i have to get ahold of my ffl and get a copy to send to his ffl so he can send his copy to my ffl. what a pain in the arse.
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they dont want to recieve a gun from a non FFL, due to fears of increased liabilty or recepit of a stolen gun. most around here wont 0 -
Seems to me it may be more about generating fees at both ends![:D][;)][;)] 0 -
not when i dont go to them for transfers,
also, 1/2 the time I end up buying something else while I am picking up a gun @ my FFL0 -
I personally would send my FFL to any non FFL seller, but with that said it is my FFL AND MY RULES. If people don't like the rules of FFL's that don't send to a non ffl sellers than find another FFL to deal with, or better yet get your own FFL and make your own rules. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by tsavo303
they dont want to recieve a gun from a non FFL, due to fears of increased liabilty or recepit of a stolen gun. most around here wont
there ok with receiving the gun from me they just wont send the signed copy of his ffl to me. he wants me to have my ffl send him a copy so he can send him his copy. the gun was always going to go throuugh the ffl. just makes more work this way.0 -
quote:Originally posted by hk-91
quote:Originally posted by tsavo303
they dont want to recieve a gun from a non FFL, due to fears of increased liabilty or recepit of a stolen gun. most around here wont
there ok with receiving the gun from me they just wont send the signed copy of his ffl to me. he wants me to have my ffl send him a copy so he can send him his copy. the gun was always going to go throuugh the ffl. just makes more work this way.
You as a non-FFL actually don't need a copy of his FFL. Just ask for his number and verify it through BATFE easy-check web site. All you have to do as an individual is make sure the gun is shipped to an FFL. You do not need a copy for your records.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bigtire
quote:Originally posted by hk-91
quote:Originally posted by tsavo303
they dont want to recieve a gun from a non FFL, due to fears of increased liabilty or recepit of a stolen gun. most around here wont
there ok with receiving the gun from me they just wont send the signed copy of his ffl to me. he wants me to have my ffl send him a copy so he can send him his copy. the gun was always going to go throuugh the ffl. just makes more work this way.
You as a non-FFL actually don't need a copy of his FFL. Just ask for his number and verify it through BATFE easy-check web site. All you have to do as an individual is make sure the gun is shipped to an FFL. You do not need a copy for your records.
does the easy check web site verify the address of the ffl.0 -
quote:Originally posted by hk-91
quote:Originally posted by bigtire
quote:Originally posted by hk-91
quote:Originally posted by tsavo303
they dont want to recieve a gun from a non FFL, due to fears of increased liabilty or recepit of a stolen gun. most around here wont
there ok with receiving the gun from me they just wont send the signed copy of his ffl to me. he wants me to have my ffl send him a copy so he can send him his copy. the gun was always going to go throuugh the ffl. just makes more work this way.
You as a non-FFL actually don't need a copy of his FFL. Just ask for his number and verify it through BATFE easy-check web site. All you have to do as an individual is make sure the gun is shipped to an FFL. You do not need a copy for your records.
does the easy check web site verify the address of the ffl.
Yes
It verifies that the license is current and the address.0 -
My dealer has given me a copy of his license which I always carry in my wallet. I travel many different states at any given time and am always browsing thru gun & pawn shops. Regardless of where I am if I find something I like it is very simple to purchase, produce the copy of his license and have them ship it to him for transfer and pickup when I return home. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by hk-91
why are some ffl's scared to send a copy of ffl to a non ffl. what can possibly happen. i have two people tell me this all the other times it was no big deal. now i plan on sending this gun through a ffl dealer because it is a pistol and its just easier that way but now i have to get ahold of my ffl and get a copy to send to his ffl so he can send his copy to my ffl. what a pain in the arse.
Really sorry about that but the other option is 30 miles away and twice the price. I don't have to have an actual copy, just the first 3 and last 5 digits of the license so I can use the EZ Chek.0 -
simple, a non ffl cant be traced if the ffl copy is used for another deal.
ffl to ffl transfers dont require background checks. the ffl form IS THE background check.
send a ffl form to a non ffl who turns out to be a felon, and he can use it to receive guns from other unsuspecting ffls.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bobski
simple, a non ffl cant be traced if the ffl copy is used for another deal.
ffl to ffl transfers dont require background checks. the ffl form IS THE background check.
send a ffl form to a non ffl who turns out to be a felon, and he can use it to receive guns from other unsuspecting ffls.
How? Shipping must be to the address on the license.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Henry0Reilly
quote:Originally posted by hk-91
why are some ffl's scared to send a copy of ffl to a non ffl. what can possibly happen. i have two people tell me this all the other times it was no big deal. now i plan on sending this gun through a ffl dealer because it is a pistol and its just easier that way but now i have to get ahold of my ffl and get a copy to send to his ffl so he can send his copy to my ffl. what a pain in the arse.
Really sorry about that but the other option is 30 miles away and twice the price. I don't have to have an actual copy, just the first 3 and last 5 digits of the license so I can use the EZ Chek.
hey man dont sweat it i'm not complaining about you just griping about it being a pain it the arse. i under stand about the 30 mile thing my closest dealer is over 30 miles away.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by bobski
simple, a non ffl cant be traced if the ffl copy is used for another deal.
ffl to ffl transfers dont require background checks. the ffl form IS THE background check.
send a ffl form to a non ffl who turns out to be a felon, and he can use it to receive guns from other unsuspecting ffls.
Nope, it doesn't work that way. [;)]
thats what i thought. the address is right on the ffl and even if they did happen to change the address if they receiving ffl does a ez check they can verify the address0 -
Bobski is very correct in what he said.
I could tell you guys how to get a firearm without a background check with a copy of someone elses FFL and the firearm be logged out to them but Iwont say it in a public forum.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Henry0Reilly
quote:Originally posted by bobski
simple, a non ffl cant be traced if the ffl copy is used for another deal.
ffl to ffl transfers dont require background checks. the ffl form IS THE background check.
send a ffl form to a non ffl who turns out to be a felon, and he can use it to receive guns from other unsuspecting ffls.
How? Shipping must be to the address on the license.
Henry...this is not true! An FFL can receive firearms at ANY address. This idea about only being able to ship to the address listed on the FFL is a common misconception. The ATF explained it to me as a Dealer may have multiple warehouses where he stores his inventory...A dealer can recieve firearms at any address. An FFL can also walk into ANY Dealer/wholesaler in the country's place of business and walk out with whatever firearms he desires.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by bobski
simple, a non ffl cant be traced if the ffl copy is used for another deal.
ffl to ffl transfers dont require background checks. the ffl form IS THE background check.
send a ffl form to a non ffl who turns out to be a felon, and he can use it to receive guns from other unsuspecting ffls.
Nope, it doesn't work that way. [;)]
Yes it does and can work that way. Bobski is dead on with this one.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dan55362
I personally would send my FFL to any non FFL seller, but with that said it is my FFL AND MY RULES. If people don't like the rules of FFL's that don't send to a non ffl sellers than find another FFL to deal with, or better yet get your own FFL and make your own rules.
Or better even yet go to a gunshow buy and sell off the floor and cut the middle man and his and the governments stupid rules altogether...!!!!0 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by bobski
simple, a non ffl cant be traced if the ffl copy is used for another deal.
ffl to ffl transfers dont require background checks. the ffl form IS THE background check.
send a ffl form to a non ffl who turns out to be a felon, and he can use it to receive guns from other unsuspecting ffls.
Nope, it doesn't work that way. [;)]
Yes it does and can work that way. Bobski is dead on with this one.
Eric don't forget about that other thread where you said the same thing, I agreed with what you said and then HobbyGuy said I was wrong and couldn't read the regulations. Well he still hasn't accepted my offer of $100.00 if he could show me in the regulations that it has to be shipped the address on the FFL. Must be he can't read regulations.0 -
As others have said, when you send or give a copy of your license to someone who doesn't have a license of their own, you have to be more than a little concerned about what will be happening to it. Much of the concern goes to the days long before ez-check, and even today, I would bet that most dealers don't consult ez-check on the items they receive from another dealer. In the past, part of what it meant to be a dealer was not jeopardizing the license and lively-hood of another dealer. There was a day when a simple thing like a copy was an extremely big deal. You had to write to the feds and ask for copies. The advent of the copy machine made things easier, but it also many dealers even more reluctant to hand out copies of their license. A little time at the copy machine and some cutting and pasting, and anyone could have their very own ffl. For the old geezers who remember the "good old days," the recent changes of being allowed to accept fax copies and email copies are more than a little troubling. I can tell you of at least three times that I was burned by fake licenses, and I suppose that is why ez-check is such a good thing. But, back in the "good old days" things were a little different and many dealers still operate under that earlier set of rules and regulations. For example, in an earlier era the comments about a dealer being allowed to receive items at any address were simply wrong. The feds told you that you had to have an address on the license and it better match the mailing address or explain why it didn't. And, no, a dealer simply couldn't "walk into ANY Dealer/wholesaler in the country's place of business and walk out with whatever firearms he desires." When you wanted to set up an account with a wholesaler, you had to send a copy of your license long in advance of actually making a purchase. They, in turn, would contact the feds, which in the days of snail mail often took weeks, in order to confirm your license. Many wholesale companies went even further, demanding a photo of your storefront. Many of the manufacturers insisted on not only verifying your ffl, but also your credit standing regardless of whether you were asking for credit or willing to pay cash. Another, more pointed, example of the federal rules concerning not being able to receive a firearm at any address involved purchases at gun shows. A dealer doing business at a gun show, could purchase an item from another dealer at that show, but the seller could not legally deliver the item at the show; they were required to mail it to the address on the license to avoid the kind of problem discussed here.
In any event, here is what the law currently says:
? 478.50 Locations covered by license.
The license covers the class of business or the activity specified in the license at the address specified therein. A separate license must be obtained for each location at which a firearms or ammunition business or activity requiring a license under this part is conducted except:
(a) No license is required to cover a separate warehouse used by the licensee solely for storage of firearms or ammunition if the records required by this part are maintained at the licensed premises served by such warehouse;
(b) A licensed collector may acquire curios and relics at any location, and dispose of curios or relics to any licensee or to other persons who are residents of the State where the collector's license is held and the disposition is made;
(c) A licensee may conduct business at a gun show pursuant to the provision of ?478.100; or
(d) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location pursuant to the provisions of ?478.100.
? 478.94 Sales or deliveries between licensees.
A licensed importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer selling or otherwise disposing of firearms, and a licensed collector selling or otherwise disposing of curios or relics, to another licensee shall verify the identity and licensed status of the transferee prior to making the transaction. Verification shall be established by the transferee furnishing to the transferor a certified copy of the transferee's license and by such other means as the transferor deems necessary: Provided, That it shall not be required (a) for a transferee who has furnished a certified copy of its license to a transferor to again furnish such certified copy to that transferor during the term of the transferee's current license, (b) for a licensee to furnish a certified copy of its license to another licensee if a firearm is being returned either directly or through another licensee to such licensee and (c) for licensees of multilicensed business organizations to furnish certified copies of their licenses to other licensed locations operated by such organization: Provided further, That a multilicensed business organization may furnish to a transferor, in lieu of a certified copy of each license, a list, certified to be true, correct and complete, containing the name, address, license number, and the date of license expiration of each licensed location operated by such organization, and the transferor may sell or otherwise dispose of firearms as provided by this section to any licensee appearing on such list without requiring a certified copy of a license therefrom. A transferor licensee who has the certified information required by this section may sell or dispose of firearms to a licensee for not more than 45 days following the expiration date of the transferee's license.
? 478.100 Conduct of business away from licensed premises.
a)(1) A licensee may conduct business temporarily at a gun show or event as defined in paragraph (b) if the gun show or event is located in the same State specified on the license: Provided, That such business shall not be conducted from any motorized or towed vehicle. The premises of the gun show or event at which the licensee conducts business shall be considered part of the licensed premises. Accordingly, no separate fee or license is required for the gun show or event locations. However, licensees shall comply with the provisions of ?478.91 relating to posting of licenses (or a copy thereof) while conducting business at the gun show or event.
(2) A licensed importer, manufacturer, or dealer may engage in the business of dealing in curio or relic firearms with another licensee at any location.
(b) A gun show or an event is a function sponsored by any national, State, or local organization, devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms, or an organization or association that sponsors functions devoted to the collection, competitive use, or other sporting use of firearms in the community.
(c) Licensees conducting business at locations other than the premises specified on their license under the provisions of paragraph (a) of this section shall maintain firearms records in the form and manner prescribed by subpart H of this part. In addition, records of firearms transactions conducted at such locations shall include the location of the sale or other disposition, be entered in the acquisition and disposition records of the licensee, and retained on the premises specified on the license.
I hope this sheds some light on why some folks are reluctant to hand out copies of their license. Best of luck -- Steve3 -
I've asked a seller to send me a copy, so I can document it in my bound book. He sent one with "File copy only for (insert name here)" written on it in magic marker. Seemed fine to me, as I could document the purchase, and his license wasn't susceptible to forgery.
We were both happy enough. No problems.0 -
quote:
b]
The ATF explained it to me as
[/quote]
I don't mean to insult you or anyone else here, but this statement sent up a red flag with me... just because someone from the government explained something to you doesn't mean the next government agent you deal with will accept the same interpretation, or even believe that's what was said. I don't want to get too off the subject, and this isn't my area of expertise, but the reality is that you can ask several people from the same agency the same quesiton and get several different answers... and IF IT ISN'T IN WRITING, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. This is especially true of the IRS, but I can't help but believe the BATF isn't far behind.0 -
quote:Originally posted by hk-91
why are some ffl's scared to send a copy of ffl to a non ffl. what can possibly happen. i have two people tell me this all the other times it was no big deal. now i plan on sending this gun through a ffl dealer because it is a pistol and its just easier that way but now i have to get ahold of my ffl and get a copy to send to his ffl so he can send his copy to my ffl. what a pain in the arse.
What can possibly happen is this. I was at a Tulsa gun show and a guy walking the aisles asked about buyting a couple of my guns. I got out the paperwork and he said he didn't have to fill out the yellow sheets and promtly handed me a copy of MY FFL
Needless to say I was shocked and said hey thats my FFL and he promptly took off into the crowd. So somewhere this guy had gotten hold of my FFL and was making in person purchases that were going into other dealers books as coming to my shop. I don't now how many times this was done but I contacted the ATF about it and they checked into everyone I had sent an FFL to. They issued me a different license number and I never heard any more from them. It was a pain shipping all my old records and bound book to them and transferring my inventory to the new book.0 -
quote:Originally posted by actionherotrainee
quote:
b]
The ATF explained it to me as
quote:I don't mean to insult you or anyone else here, but this statement sent up a red flag with me... just because someone from the government explained something to you doesn't mean the next government agent you deal with will accept the same interpretation, or even believe that's what was said. I don't want to get too off the subject, and this isn't my area of expertise, but the reality is that you can ask several people from the same agency the same quesiton and get several different answers... and IF IT ISN'T IN WRITING, IT DIDN'T HAPPEN. This is especially true of the IRS, but I can't help but believe the BATF isn't far behind.
It is in writing...in the rules and regulations.0 -
O.K. , I will/do NOT send my FFL to any Non-FFL because :
NO REASON to do SO (its not required by law) and any-one can check the status of my ffl on the ATF web-site (in case an Non-FFL wants to ship me a firearm )...and also I just dont trust a non-ffl with a copy of my license ???
Thanks !!!
d.a.stearns
Gunsmith / LEO
Niota , Tn0 -
quote:Originally posted by abcguns2
O.K. , I will/do NOT send my FFL to any Non-FFL because :
NO REASON to do SO (its not required by law) and any-one can check the status of my ffl on the ATF web-site (in case an Non-FFL wants to ship me a firearm )...and also I just dont trust a non-ffl with a copy of my license ???
Thanks !!!
d.a.stearns
Gunsmith / LEO
Niota , Tn
Enough said[;)]0 -
Because I can take a signed FFL to a gun show or gun shop and pick up guns and they will show to be transferred to the FFL I produce a copy of. This means no questions, no NICS check and no forms showing the sale to an individual. Now days, most FFL's won't give you a copy to mail, they will mail it from themselves to the FFL directly so you can't pull the copy and use it to do a "dealer to dealer" transfer. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dheffley
Because I can take a signed FFL to a gun show or gun shop and pick up guns and they will show to be transferred to the FFL I produce a copy of. This means no questions, no NICS check and no forms showing the sale to an individual. Now days, most FFL's won't give you a copy to mail, they will mail it from themselves to the FFL directly so you can't pull the copy and use it to do a "dealer to dealer" transfer.
You are dead on DeHeff...0
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