Question for Unbelievers
Suppose I am in the gun making business, and I build a new type of gun, one that will greatly surpass every gun that currently exists. Suppose I make this gun to be available to all people, however I know that everyone will not treat it the same. Some people will use it for good, protecting their loved ones and themselves, and only when there is no other option, while some people will use it to kill innocent people, for any reason at all, whatever it may be. I want people to use my gun for good, but I know that it would not be right to make them use it for good, because I want them to choose to use it in that way. At the same time, I know that many will use it for evil, and for their own gain. So here is the question, is it then my fault that people use the gun for evil, and am I evil for allowing this to happen? Also, because I knew before hand what people would do with the gun, have I truly given them free will to use it?
Please do not get this poofed or locked. I will return from my trip Tues night and I want to be able to read your responses.
Please do not get this poofed or locked. I will return from my trip Tues night and I want to be able to read your responses.
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yes it is your fault.
only a vindictive sob would make a faulty product on purpouse and then condem it for the faults he designed into it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by DieHard4
Suppose I am in the gun making business, and I build a new type of gun, one that will greatly surpass every gun that currently exists. Suppose I make this gun to be available to all people, however I know that everyone will not treat it the same. Some people will use it for good, protecting their loved ones and themselves, and only when there is no other option, while some people will use it to kill innocent people, for any reason at all, whatever it may be. I want people to use my gun for good, but I know that it would not be right to make them use it for good, because I want them to choose to use it in that way. At the same time, I know that many will use it for evil, and for their own gain. So here is the question, is it then my fault that people use the gun for evil, and am I evil for allowing this to happen? Also, because I knew before hand what people would do with the gun, have I truly given them free will to use it?
Please do not get this poofed or locked. I will return from my trip Tues night and I want to be able to read your responses.
Well, think about your question. I don't think it takes a rocket scientist to figure out the answer. You haven't given them anything. The laws of the land will determine if those people can use your invention, not you. Morally, it's as simple as this, if it will do more bad than good, you are an azzhole for producing it. If you really want to ponder something, think Oppenheimer and the atomic bomb.[B)]0 -
No. Isn't this question on the same mindset that gun grabbers use? If they make a gun or certain gun unavailable to the public then crime with go down.
We all know that's not true. Yes, you will have a group that will use the gun for evil, but why punish the group that will used the gun for good.
Even if the gun wasn't available to the evil group they will find other means to harm the good group of people.0 -
Would your name possibly be Kalashnikov?
[:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Oren Rudder
yes it is your fault.
only a vindictive sob would make a faulty product on purpouse and then condem it for the faults he designed into it.
In this one short almost joking post there is to be found a tremendous amount of truth.0 -
ZIPPER,LOL!!! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
quote:Originally posted by Oren Rudder
yes it is your fault.
only a vindictive sob would make a faulty product on purpouse and then condem it for the faults he designed into it.
In this one short almost joking post there is to be found a tremendous amount of truth.
Though I do not agree with his beliefs I can see that TRfox does understand that I am attempting to relate this to the recent topics on God and free will. Although, since you have gone there, and God is given the blame for the evil in the world, according to your answer, does this also apply to gunmakers, as described and commented on by others above? Even as I do not blame God for the evil in the world, I do not blame gun makers for the misuse of their creations either.0 -
quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
Would your name possibly be Kalashnikov?
[:D]
Yep, that exactly what Mikhail Kalashnikov did! [V][V]
I guess the same could be said for Samuel Colt, John Browning, Smith and Wesson and others.0 -
god made man,sam colt made them equal 0 -
guns have no free will, comparing a gun maker with a soul maker is not correct 0 -
Posted - 08/13/2007 : 12:18:21 AM
guns have no free will, comparing a gun maker with a soul maker is not correct
Do humans have free will? If you point a gun at a person and kill him, did you kill that person , or did the gun kill that person? Some courts would send you to jail for killing a person with a gun. Why don't the courts send the gun to jail? Or should the bullet that killed the person , be sent to jail,How about the primer and the powder, what roll did they have in killing the person?If the powder and the primer knew you were going to kill that person, and the bullet didn't have a clue, what then? If you kill a person just for fun, is that murder?If you kill a person before he kills you is that not murder?If you kill a person you don't know but your country is at war with, and that person you kill, wants to kill you, is that not murder? What if you walk across a freeway at two am and are killed by a trucker, is it Dubya's fault? I'll vote for impeaching Dubya, your on your own if you want to mess with GOD the Father, GOd the son and God the holy spirit.0 -
Firearms of all sorts are objects. It is when these objects are used by humans that they are capable of doing good and bad things. It is the operator that is evil, not the device he chooses to spread his evil with. 0 -
I've said this before...
We're told that we humans have been created in His image. The "create" seems to cause some problems as we fools disagree on the meaning, but I digress.
In my observations of almost six decades, it seems that one of the basic similarities between "God" (whatever or whomever God is) and mankind is the ability and drive to create. God to a magnificent extent and mankind to a much lesser.
The fact is that we mortals delude ourselves as far as to what we "create". Actually we create nothing. We merely use the tools and materials supplied and manipulate them to our uses and desires.
Take the new gun. You as the builder will be aware of the abilities of this tool. You'll know the envelope of its operation. The decision to introduce your product into the world will probably be financial with the certain knowledge that your product can easily be used for great good or great harm. I'd postulate the same is true of the use of the atom. Horrific in some ways and beneficial in others. Morality is in the use, not the creation or discovery.
Which leads me to God, creation, and the apparent desire of some of us mortals to pass a moral judgement upon Him. Interesting! We really do think highly of ourselves, don't we?
Let's assume for the moment that we all agree He created us and everything around us. Would it not be reasonable to assume that He would have been well aware of the parameters of His creation?... Much the same as you might be aware of the parameters of your gun?
If so, then is He responsible for for the use and misuse of His creation? Are you for yours? Maybe the difference between us mortals and God is that He has the power to do something about His creation and we don't.
Might it be reasonable for God on a grand scale to watch over His creation and sift the good from the bad? If so, then there is a purpose, isn't there?. Much like a farmer, He must plant a crop in order to harvest one. Harvest is a time of sorting. The bad is discarded and the good is put away. Is there no purpose in this?
Unlike a grain of wheat or any other crop, we humans have been granted the unique blessing (or curse) of choice. We choose to be good or bad. It would have been much easier had we been created a maple tree with no choice other than to sprout from a seed, grow to maturity, then return to the earth from whence we came. But this would serve no real purpose, would it?
What I'm getting at is that if we believe God created each and every one of us, then God is well aware of the parameters he created for us. Our decisions are free within those parameters and I believe that we're judged by how we behave within what He has given.
Given that He knows what He has been bestowed and that He knows all the possible results, why do we find it so hard to accept that our Maker be omnipotent? Why do we find it so hard to accept free will within the parameters He has provided? Why is it not more logical to believe than disbelieve?
For myself, I'm comfortable that there exists a reason and a purpose. I'm comfortable that I don't have all the answers and may never have them. I'm comfortable that part of learning is to ask questions. And I'm comfortable with the fact that we humans seem to be the only ones with the capacity to ask... Which makes me comfortable in the belief that I am somehow important to Him.
Why???...
Well, that's one of my questions.0 -
The gun has NO free will!!!!!!!!!!! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by DieHard4 Even as I do not blame God for the evil in the world, I do not blame gun makers for the misuse of their creations either.
You should blame him. Gun makers don't have the supernatural powers to stop the misuse of what they made.
God does (or so people claim). Maybe he's impotent?0 -
why an "unbeliever" bother pursuing an argument with a "believer"? when we ask you something, you just stop responding after a while. or tell us to "just believe".
I'll make it short. just believe in it, ok? whatever it was.0 -
Interesting Quiz....
But you will no longer need any weapons at all after I complete my upside-down rail gun. My theory is that if I fire a 7000 lb projectile from a 400' rail gun straight down near the dome of Super dome volcanoe it should be the end of the world as we know it... Possibly the Assies will survive But it is about 150 to 1 odds... BTW anyone know what the biggest power station is near Yellow Stone National park!!!0 -
Why don't we have a "Religion" forum? Looks like there would be plenty of business there... 0 -
quote:Originally posted by mateomasfeo
Why don't we have a "Religion" forum? Looks like there would be plenty of business there...
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quote:Originally posted by mateomasfeo
Why don't we have a "Religion" forum? Looks like there would be plenty of business there...
I think we need a 'parralel forum' for all the paranormal experiences.0 -
quote:If I had only known, I would have been a locksmith - Albert Einstein 0 -
Just because you can kill someone with a kitchen knife doesn't make it an evil object and remove the positive things it can do in your life. 0 -
Ban all kitchen knives!!!!!!!!!!! 
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Though I do not agree with his beliefs
>>you can't even get your own beliefs to agree with each other
I can see that TRfox does understand that I am attempting to relate this to the recent topics on God and free will.
>>which was spewage, this one will be assuredly more of the same
Although, since you have gone there,
>>your answer belongs there
and God is given the blame for the evil in the world, according to your answer,
>>and according to your beliefs too, God said that he made each and everybody the way they are, to be bad or not, which you don't want to acknowledge for conveniences' sake
does this also apply to gunmakers, as described and commented on by others above?
>>so what
Even as I do not blame God for the evil in the world,
>>yes you do, says so in the bible
I do not blame gun makers for the misuse of their creations either.
>>why don't you address the opther topic before dropping it and starting on a different one??? because you know you're wrong.0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
why an "unbeliever" bother pursuing an argument with a "believer"? when we ask you something, you just stop responding after a while. or tell us to "just believe".
I'll make it short. just believe in it, ok? whatever it was.
First I answer your questions as best as I am able to, and then you claim that the question was never answered and continue to repeat it. The reason I cannot possibly keep up with everything that goes on after that and appear to disappear is because I work 60-70 hours a week and hardly have the time to sleep, much less talk on here.
So maybe it is the case that we say to just believe, because we believe what the Bible says, and that is our only source of truth, but why is it that no matter what we may say or quote from the Bible, it is quickly dismissed with the reasons that the Bible is a faulty and contradictory book written by men, and is therefore inaccurate and cannot be trusted. I wonder, how is it that the Bible, written by men, must be so full of errors and cannot be trusted, but yet millions and millions of other books are created in the same way and yet people bet their lives on them being true? History and science books are written by men, and contain proven errors, but yet people bet their lives on them being true. How come we can believe stories of what took place in the middle ages but we cannot believe what took place when Jesus lived? He lived during Roman times, and yet stories about Rome are trusted to be true, and not Jesus. How is it that events that supposedly took place billions of years ago could be true when events that took place thousands of years ago, but were written in the Bible, are false, when none of us were around to witness any of them?
Any question that someone asks who does not believe the Bible is truth will not receive a satisfactory answer from someone who does. Simply because those who believe can never supply an answer that will satisfy those who do not. Jesus is coming soon, and soon we shall all see the truth. I am ready for it.0 -
First I answer your questions as best as I am able to, and then you claim that the question was never answered and continue to repeat it. The reason I cannot possibly keep up with everything that goes on after that and appear to disappear is because I work 60-70 hours a week and hardly have the time to sleep, much less talk on here.
ok
So maybe it is the case that we say to just believe, because we believe what the Bible says, and that is our only source of truth,
right, you say "just believe" because that's what works for you. but it's not working for nonbelievers. and when the question is over facts -like, how old is the earth- "just believe it" is a colossally dumb answer. especially when it's used as an out for a losing argument. can you see how frustrating it is?
but why is it that no matter what we may say or quote from the Bible, it is quickly dismissed with the reasons that the Bible is a faulty and contradictory book written by men, and is therefore inaccurate and cannot be trusted.
becuse it is! not just the words, but also the beliefs you have. was the earth created by god? was man created by god? did god create all the animals? how old is the earth? is there really a god?? there are so many things in the bible and beliefs in your head that have been proven wrong, that it's safe to say that none of it is true.
I wonder, how is it that the Bible, written by men, must be so full of errors and cannot be trusted, but yet millions and millions of other books are created in the same way and yet people bet their lives on them being true?
well, they sure do!
History and science books are written by men, and contain proven errors, but yet people bet their lives on them being true.
xray machines work as advertised. so do PET, CAT, and NMR machines in hospitals. how can scientists develop such instruments of science is full of error? scientists do know what they're talking about. they even know how accurate they know it, they know what they don't know yet, why they don't know it yet and how they're going to go about finding it out.
for example, carbon dating. at one time, some scientists were sitting there going "gee, it would be nice if we had some instrument to figure out how old this fossil is",
later on they were saying "we could probably make an instrument that uses this technique, but we don't have the technology for it"
later on they said "now we do have the technology, we built one, but it doesn't work so well"
later on they said "we learned a lot about how to make it work better, the engineers learned some tricks, the manufacturers make better components we can use that we didn't have before, now this one we built works a lot better!"
then they build a better one. and a better one. and a better one. and it gets cheaper and easier to build. some time in the future, you may find radio isotope analyzer kits to do your carbon dating at Wal Mart for $19.99!
the development of everything works the same way. everything from guns to cars to tv's to computers gets better constantly. because scientists know what they're doing. it's ridiculous to say that they don't. they built the space shuttle? nuclear bombs? tv's? you know how hard it is to design a tv? why don't you try it sometime. naww, they don't know what they're doing.
in the meantime, they take a fossil from a rock, do some carbon dating on it (which has been proven to be a reliable and accurate method of analysis) and find that it is so many millions of years old. you, on the other hand, won't believe it because it's a dinosaur bone, and according to your god, the earth didn't exist that long ago, let alone dinosaurs.
or to avoid losing an argument you try to find ways to twist around the very gospel that somebody wrote in the bible that supposedly is God's word, to suit what the scientists have found, which completely disproves the beliefs of generations of believers, who had taught you what to believe in the first place. maybe God did create dinosaurs? maybe one day in heaven is like a thousand years here on earth, that's why we have a 7,000 day week?
or when you find that you don't have an explanation to counter the impossible truths you're being confronted with, the answer is "just believe". no amount of truth can shake your faith, but it surely does make you turn away. "just believe" is the only answer you have.
How come we can believe stories of what took place in the middle ages but we cannot believe what took place when Jesus lived? He lived during Roman times, and yet stories about Rome are trusted to be true, and not Jesus.
yup, that's true.
How is it that events that supposedly took place billions of years ago could be true when events that took place thousands of years ago, but were written in the Bible, are false, when none of us were around to witness any of them?
because they don't need to have a witness. in fact, it's better that way, because witnesses are unreliable. it's easier for a team of scientists to figure out a physical specimen. a fossilized dinosaur bone in a rock is about as simple as it gets. either it is there and it is so old, or it isn't.
also there are galaxies in formation right now, which are forming stars and other planets, all you have to do is get a telescope and look. and that has been done, what has been found has been studied thoroughly.
do you really think that the scientists that discovered tht the earth used to have a methane atmosphere just farted that out and all the other scientists believed them?? no, the analysis was reproduced by other scientists, published in a peer-reviewed journal, and other scientists doing other research rely on that information to conduct their own experiments. if it wasn't reliable, their experiments would be worthless. it's not bogus. but if I told you that, billions of years ago, the earth had an atmosphere with methabne instead of CO2 and O2, you wouldn't have an explanation would you? if I asked you where it went, you wouldn't have an explanation for that either! scientists do, but their explanation involves life starting out from simple molecules and evolving, which you can't accept as the truth because it would disprove what your god said. if it didn't, you would accept it, wouldn't you. therefore what the truth is doesn't rely on your beliefs- and, in fact, the truth disproves your beliefs.
Any question that someone asks who does not believe the Bible is truth will not receive a satisfactory answer from someone who does. Simply because those who believe can never supply an answer that will satisfy those who do not.
because-you-are-wrong! and the reason why the arguments continue is because you refuse to accept the fact that you are wrong.
Jesus is coming soon, and soon we shall all see the truth. I am ready for it.
that's not good enough. there all these other things you say are true and I say are false besides simply the existence of God. the argument is now and it's continuing. are you going to duck out?
I said a bunch of things that prove this whole "god" thing as false, go ahead and refute them.
otherwise, you must accept that you are wrong.0 -
Why ask? This has been going on for a few centuries[:0] 0 -
[}:)][}:)] Much of the bad things that happen with firearms are caused by groups like the Brady gun control people giving firearms bad names like "Assualt Weapon" or Saturday night special. Also registering firearms like common criminals contributes to the problem. This gives firearms a negative self esteem and nurtures them to be the way they are. If you want to solve this problem start with a name that will contribute to a good self esteem like "Liberty Defender". When you put a serial number on the firearm use only numbers like square root numbers that are infinite, and not regristrationable, and make it impossible for bigots like the Brady gun control people to give firearms a negative image of themselves. [:D][:D] 0 -
There is no connection between a "Gun" and People as far as being made. A gun is an inanimate object. to compare it with evil people and who created the evil you must give your invention a mind with the ability to think. If you predetermine that some of your invention will be used for evil and some for good then you are the one that is perpertrating evil for you have preplanned which is going to be evil and which is going to be used for good. The evil ones in predestination have no choice. If man was predestined then he to was determined ahead of time which would be evil and which would be good therefor the "Maker" would be the perpetrator of evil and good. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
but why is it that no matter what we may say or quote from the Bible, it is quickly dismissed with the reasons that the Bible is a faulty and contradictory book written by men, and is therefore inaccurate and cannot be trusted.
becuse it is! not just the words, but also the beliefs you have. was the earth created by god? was man created by god? did god create all the animals? how old is the earth? is there really a god?? there are so many things in the bible and beliefs in your head that have been proven wrong, that it's safe to say that none of it is true.
So what experiment proved all of this to be wrong? I am especially interested in the one that proved that God does not exist.0
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