Another religion question.
I'll leave you with another question or statement before I head off to bed.
God knows all, past, present and future.
So he knew before creating Adam and Eve that they would eat from the tree of life. Knowing this in advance and also knowing in advance that he would kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, allowing people to become evil (free will) and rape and torture little kids. This along with all other evil things that can and do occur.
It would seem that if God were all knowing and smarter than all of mankind he would see fit to not put the tree of life in the Garden of Eden and save a lot of pain. So knowing in advance that humankind would screw this up, why would he allow it? Just so he could have followers? So he could have entertainment? Or what?
I'll check back tomorrow night to see what people have to say.
God knows all, past, present and future.
So he knew before creating Adam and Eve that they would eat from the tree of life. Knowing this in advance and also knowing in advance that he would kick Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden, allowing people to become evil (free will) and rape and torture little kids. This along with all other evil things that can and do occur.
It would seem that if God were all knowing and smarter than all of mankind he would see fit to not put the tree of life in the Garden of Eden and save a lot of pain. So knowing in advance that humankind would screw this up, why would he allow it? Just so he could have followers? So he could have entertainment? Or what?
I'll check back tomorrow night to see what people have to say.
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quote:Originally posted by ECC
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
so He created mankind knowing that some of them would love/worship him.
if He would have made it so that everybody loved/worshipped him, that wouldn't be true love/worship, would it?
I think that's an answer to the question.
Wise words...I'm impressed with your understanding...
that's basically a summary of what DieHard4 said, I was going to say so but I forgot to add that.0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
...or would you? even if you're in heaven, how could you fully understand God? he's still God, you're not. do all the rest of the angels -like yourself- understand God? they don't have His infinite wisdom, do they?
who's to say that when you 'go to heaven', you understand a lot more because now you're there and you see what you can't see here on earth, but still, you aren't as God himself (you're still the worshipper and he's the worshippee) so therefore, you still can't fully understand him?
disclaimer: I still don't believe in all this stuff, this is just conjecture.
God Himself says that we will know fully...That's good enough for me. We are made in the image of God and in heaven we will only be second to Him.0 -
which begs the question:
if God made mankind for the purpose of having people to worship Him, giving them free will so that the ones that chose Him would be giving Him their true love and admiration, but also knowing that some of them would not -and they're damned forever and going to burn in hell,
doesn't that make God responsible for the creation of millions and billions of people who are going to hell??
sure, he gave us free will, so it's up to us to choose, but still, he knew some wouldn't. so He was expecting that. so that makes him responsible, right?
like someone growing a rose bush, for the purpose of cutting off the roses for his flower vase- fine, he gets the flowers, but the rest of the bush is going in the trash.
is that selfish? or not?
is he to blame for people burning in hell?
does that make them not to blame?
does that make God a murderer?0 -
I don't think so. Again, as was stated above, it is not possible to understand God's reasoning and why He would choose to do something or not.
It would seem, however, to be rather selfish and unkind to create human beings for the sole purpose of worshiping Him. What would that accomplish? I can build a robot and program it to worship me. It would, in all honesty, get old rather quickly.
OTOH, by giving man free will, he is able to choose his own destiny. This does not make God responsible for man's decisions, rather, it makes man responsible for man's decisions. A man can choose to worship God or defy God. Man must be prepared for the consequences of his actions or inactions.
Really, you can use the same twisted logic of saying that the government is responsible for man committing crimes. After all, if the crimes weren't crimes, then man wouldn't get in trouble for committing them and wouldn't have to suffer the consequences of his actions, now, would he?
I do have a list of questions for God when I get to heaven. Most of them are pretty silly, along the lines of "Why does a dog turn around three times before laying down?"0 -
Truly I say unto you "I am the comming you have been waiting for. Follow me."
Now you all have to do as I say. Shut up!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
I don't see why we couldn't figure some of it out. He made us in His image, more or less, so why not try? we're capable of thought. for example, we can understand that He loves us, so why not try to understand more?
another question: if He gave men free will so we can choose to worship him or not, wouldn't it also please Him to create more Gods like Himself (God) because, being equal to God Himself, they really have a choice to befriend him or not?
I wouldn't go so far as to say that perhaps God made men lower than himself because He'd prefer worship from us (who are beneath Him) to friendship with other Gods, because the purpose of the question wouldn't be to look for some kind of blame to pin on God. just, a question of possibilities.
maybe he wouldn't create Gods like Himself because since they would be exactly like himself, their friendship would be a given. so just like creating men without free will who were preprogrammed to worship Him, that wouldn't be satisfying. so you get what we have here, the creation of man but not more Gods.0 -
God is the only being, whose reason for existence lies within himself. 0 -
that's a given. and beside the point. 0 -
We live in what we perceive as a 3 dimensional world and some realize a few more dimensions through spirituality and science; however, science is now aware of more than 25 dimensions. Therefore:
Charity is much to be preferred to the gifts on which the Corinthians prided themselves. From its longer continuance. It is a grace, lasting as eternity. The present state is a state of childhood, the future that of manhood. Such is the difference between earth and heaven. What narrow views, what confused notions of things, have children when compared with grown men! Thus shall we think of our most valued gifts of this world, when we come to heaven. All things are dark and confused now, compared with what they will be hereafter. They can only be seen as by the reflection in a mirror, or in the description of a riddle; but hereafter our knowledge will be free from all obscurity and error. It is the light of heaven only, that will remove all clouds and darkness that hide the face of God from us. To sum up the excellences of charity, it is preferred not only to gifts, but to other graces, to faith and hope. Faith fixes on the Divine revelation, and assents thereto, relying on the Divine Redeemer. Hope fastens on future happiness, and waits for that; but in heaven, faith will be swallowed up in actual sight, and hope in enjoyment. There is no room to believe and hope, when we see and enjoy. But there, love will be made perfect. There we shall perfectly love God. And there we shall perfectly love one another. Blessed state! how much surpassing the best below! God is love, 1Jo 4:8,16. Where God is to be seen as he is, and face to face, there charity is in its greatest height; there only will it be perfected.0 -
uuhh... 0 -
One of the problems with postulating gods is that we can conceive of circumstances where in the god appears either evil, uncaring or absent.
Gods by their very nature are incomprehensible, unknowable beings. Ascertions to "know the mind of god" by some apologists are facile, pathetic, rationalizations. Gods are dismissable or worshipable, but not knowable.
That is why science steadfastly maintains gods (any and/or all) to be outside the perview of science. Gods are unmeasureable.0 -
Well, lets look at this then, according human reasoning. As that seems to be the theme. I'll ask it this way, in regards to the free will aspect of the scenario: Will you choose to own a computer because it will do just what you program it to do, and only what you program it to do, or will you still have children with free will? Remembering that this free will also enables them to either love you or to disobey you. Either bring you great joy or deep hurt. So then, are human children with their free will out? And we'll just have computers and robots who are cold and lifeless who must obey us with out any love at all? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
which begs the question:
if God made mankind for the purpose of having people to worship Him, giving them free will so that the ones that chose Him would be giving Him their true love and admiration, but also knowing that some of them would not -and they're damned forever and going to burn in hell,
doesn't that make God responsible for the creation of millions and billions of people who are going to hell??
sure, he gave us free will, so it's up to us to choose, but still, he knew some wouldn't. so He was expecting that. so that makes him responsible, right?
like someone growing a rose bush, for the purpose of cutting off the roses for his flower vase- fine, he gets the flowers, but the rest of the bush is going in the trash.
is that selfish? or not?
is he to blame for people burning in hell?
does that make them not to blame?
does that make God a murderer?
Read Romans 9:21-25...0 -
Isn't there something along the lines.."..and then ye shall know the truth.."? 0 -
No doubt about it good lawyer could have god locked up for child abuse!!!
Well they could if they weren't all headed to that OTHER place!!!0 -
quote:Originally posted by ECC
Read Romans 9:21-25...how about 13-26.
013: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
014: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
015: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
016: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
017: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
018: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
019: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
020: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
021: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
022: What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
023: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
024: Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
025: As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
026: And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
sounds to me like it says you're predestined by God to be doomed or not, it's completely up to Him to decide on that, and he makes really big bad buys to show how powerful He is.
ok.
earlier we were saying that we have free will, so God wouldn't know if we were going to accept Him or not, he would like that better than a bunch of robot worshippers, so that must be why he made men with free will.
doesn't that run contrary to the above passage from Romans, which says that God made particular people to be good or bad?
can you reconcile the two?0 -
..zzzzzzzzzz-zzzzz-zzzzz..... 0 -
quote:Originally posted by buschmaster
quote:Originally posted by ECC
Read Romans 9:21-25...how about 13-26.
013: As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
014: What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
015: For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
016: So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that showeth mercy.
017: For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might show my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
018: Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
019: Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
020: Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
021: Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
022: What if God, willing to show his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
023: And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
024: Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
025: As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
026: And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
sounds to me like it says you're predestined by God to be doomed or not, it's completely up to Him to decide on that, and he makes really big bad buys to show how powerful He is.
ok.
earlier we were saying that we have free will, so God wouldn't know if we were going to accept Him or not, he would like that better than a bunch of robot worshippers, so that must be why he made men with free will.
doesn't that run contrary to the above passage from Romans, which says that God made particular people to be good or bad?
can you reconcile the two?
God made them with the foreknowledge that they would reject Him and take the paths they chose to take.0 -
Still sounds like conversations with Dad when I was 16. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
Still sounds like conversations with Dad when I was 16.
...sounds like you found the Truth...did he?0 -
quote:...sounds like you found the Truth...did he?
Dad knew the Truth; it was up to me to find that out some years later.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
quote:...sounds like you found the Truth...did he?
Dad knew the Truth; it was up to me to find that out some years later.
...that's the way it seems to work with most things...[8D]0
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