Great nations
Anyone ever wonder what the world would be like if AFRICA were like the USA?? One central government and states instead of countries?? Think of all the natural resources they have to offer. It really boggles my mind what they could be instead of what they really are today. Tom
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We can thank midevil/and later Europe for what they are today.
... we can also thank Western countries who use their national
resources, too.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tccox
Anyone ever wonder what the world would be like if AFRICA were like the USA?? One central government and states instead of countries?? Think of all the natural resources they have to offer. It really boggles my mind what they could be instead of what they really are today. Tom
we had to have a civil war to forge a nation out of a couple dozen highly similar and historically linked states. Imagine the bloodbath that would have to occur to forge a nation out of literally thousands of disparte tribes, traditions, religions, cultures, languages, and colonial histories. It would make Africa's current problems look like child's play.0 -
Splitting - arbitrarily - Africa up into colonies made it what it is today. Too bad
it just wasn't left alone.
The Russia/Soviet Union is another brilliant example of what happens when
people are - instead of broken into arbitrary pieces - arbitrarily 'forged' into
one arbitrary state.
'Good idea' that doesn't work.0 -
Africa was the dark continent 200 years ago.
Has it changed any today?
I don't think Western Civilization or White Europeans can be blamed for Africa.0 -
Take 3 groups of people and let them live there lives for a ocuple of thousand years. In one group you have Africa, another Europe/ North America, another Central and South America, and then there is the Chinese. All are vastly different.
Africa is still Africa.0 -
Africa under colonial rule was far better off than now.
I think the United States should give the rest of the continent something to aspire to, by colonizing Iraq, as three countries.
Doug0 -
The Africans aren't doing well. Europe shouldn't be feeling smug about it. Colonial Africa was a a big-azz cluster****.
As for us here in the US...I think we did a lot through divestment to bring the apartheid regime to its knees. I think we render a lot of aid. I'm not sure where to put us. I know the white South Africans don't think much of us.0 -
Africa is not anyone's fault but Africa's and I'm sick and tired of hearing people blaming us or Europe for Africa's woes. Yes, Africa was colonized and you know what? That was probably the only time in that misbegotten continent's history that child rape, genocide, and corruption weren't the norm.
"Oh, but slavery! Slavery, slavery, slavery!"
Take a good look at South Central L.A. and try telling me we nabbed the best and the brightest from that hellhole during the slave trade.
And as for the exploitation of the continent's resources, hey, tough luck - when your main export is raw materials, you get paid what they trade for, not what they're worth after they've been processed and turned into manufactured goods.
All in all, it's a backwards dump populated by whiny b!#@#es who couldn't shoulder the responsibility of freedom and so choose to spend their days blaming whitey for a situation entirely of their own making.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Africa under colonial rule was far better off than now.
I think the United States should give the rest of the continent something to aspire to, by colonizing Iraq, as three countries.
Doug
Africa under colonial rule ran in a way that was convenient for the colonizers. It also had a lot less unrest than it presently has. That is largely so because the colonizers had the native peoples under their boots.
That doesn't make it right. Much of the strife we see today is due to the artificial boundaries that were drawn by the colonizers. There are internal problems too, but those don't justify the subjugation of entire populations to colonial rule.
I, for one, do not think that I have the right to walk into a country and tell the locals how it should be. Let anybody try that in the US and see what happens!
Africa is a mess. I think it will be a mess for at least five more decades. We could re-colonize Africa and subjugate it in perhaps two decades, but that would not solve the underlying problems.
Sartre wrote in his introduction to "The Wretched of the Earth" that violence begets violence--and only can be resolved through more violence. That is some of what we are seeing in Africa. The other part of what we are seeing in Africa is the clash between tribal culture and global markets. I don't know how to fix it. I think it just has to play out.
But I really believe that the wistful remembrance of the 'civilized colonial days' is counter-productive. I was there to experience those civilized colonial days in South Africa. It WAS nice.....given that I was a little white boy! I'm not sure the black folk feel the same way about the years I spent in South Africa.0 -
Lets ask the question what would Africa be if the Europeans would have killed off all the natives like they did in the Americas? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
Africa is not anyone's fault but Africa's and I'm sick and tired of hearing people blaming us or Europe for Africa's woes. Yes, Africa was colonized and you know what? That was probably the only time in that misbegotten continent's history that child rape, genocide, and corruption weren't the norm.
"Oh, but slavery! Slavery, slavery, slavery!"
Take a good look at South Central L.A. and try telling me we nabbed the best and the brightest from that hellhole during the slave trade.
And as for the exploitation of the continent's resources, hey, tough luck - when your main export is raw materials, you get paid what they trade for, not what they're worth after they've been processed and turned into manufactured goods.
All in all, it's a backwards dump populated by whiny b!#@#es who couldn't shoulder the responsibility of freedom and so choose to spend their days blaming whitey for a situation entirely of their own making.
Africa is largely Africa's fault. But the colonizers most definitely had a hand in the mess. Corruption wasn't the norm under colonial rule? There's a laugh. How did the South African government handle the death of Steve Biko, again? Or the deaths of god-knows-how-many-other "insurgents"?
You're right about the trade of raw materials...they do trade for what they're worth. That's a problem that Africans are going to have to think about.
I'm not sure what to say about your argument regarding slaves and L.A. I can't really get my head around it. Are you positing a genetic problem, a cultural problem, or otherwise?
And FWIW, the whiniest crowd I've encountered anywhere in the world (and this includes college freshmen) are the white folk in South Africa just after the fall of the Apartheid regime. They could not get over the fact that there were pot-holes in the roads (because money was being diverted to serve more than the mere 13% of the population that was white). I'm not saying that government is running properly; I'm just saying that the whiniest crowd I have ever observed were the whites following the fall of the apartheid regime.0 -
quote:Originally posted by shoff14
Lets ask the question what would Africa be if the Europeans would have killed off all the natives like they did in the Americas?
Well. I guess that's another way to think about it.0 -
spurge,
The problem is that Africa, for all the civility of its individuals, is run collectively by a bunch of lunatics.
Darfur, the Congo civil war, Rwanda, Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia - whitey had little to do with any of those and I find it incredibly disingenuous to lay current woes on ancient history.
Africa's problems are twofold - a corrupt elite who don't have the patience or the brains to elevate the nations involved and a massive population that is too worried with day-to-day survival to worry about the little things... like literacy or education.
And left to their own devices, which they have been for the past sixty years, they will perpetuate that system until Hell freezes over.
Now I agree that foreigners shouldn't walk in and tell people how to do things, but I also don't believe that having kept our noses out of their business, we should be blamed for their self-inflicted woes.0 -
Using Rhodesia and South Africa as a baseline, Africa left on it's own as a whole would revert back to the stone age in fairly short order without Homo Sapien influence.
Cannibalism, tribal warfare, genocide, slavery, and the savagery that once existed in Africa is and has returned in some measure.
Everyone should pull out and let nature take it course.[:0][:(]0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
spurge,
The problem is that Africa, for all the civility of its individuals, is run collectively by a bunch of lunatics.
Darfur, the Congo civil war, Rwanda, Somalia, Eritrea, Ethiopia - whitey had little to do with any of those and I find it incredibly disingenuous to lay current woes on ancient history.
Africa's problems are twofold - a corrupt elite who don't have the patience or the brains to elevate the nations involved and a massive population that is too worried with day-to-day survival to worry about the little things... like literacy or education.
And left to their own devices, which they have been for the past sixty years, they will perpetuate that system until Hell freezes over.
Now I agree that foreigners shouldn't walk in and tell people how to do things, but I also don't believe that having kept our noses out of their business, we should be blamed for their self-inflicted woes.
EMM,
Africa IS to a large extent run by a bunch of lunatics, and whitey had little to do with the tribal conflicts that existed before, during, and after the era of colonial rule--and that obviously continue to this day.
On the other hand, whitey drew the national borders that split indigenous groups, and lumped differing indigenous groups into countries. Europe is divided into countries largely on the basis of ethnicities because they worked those boundaries out themselves. Africa is divided into countries largely because Europeans drew arbitrary lines on maps.
Would Africa be better off without the European influence? We'll never know. But like it or not, the west is now part of the political heritage of Africa. We also rely on Africa for a lot of resources, both geological and biological, so we have a stake in how it plays out. To a large extent, I believe it just has to PLAY OUT. I think there's a lot of violence that is inevitable. But I don't believe it's reasonable, productive, or smart to walk away saying: "not our problem."0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Using Rhodesia and South Africa as a baseline, Africa left on it's own as a whole would revert back to the stone age in fairly short order without Homo Sapien influence.
Cannibalism, tribal warfare, genocide, slavery, and the savagery that once existed in Africa is and has returned in some measure.
Everyone should pull out and let nature take it course.[:0][:(]
Rhodesia (Zimbabwe) certainly looks like hell in a hand-basket right now. I'm not sure where the comparison to S.A. fits in, but I do know this: everybody will NOT pull out, simply because the continent is so rich in resources.
BTW: even black folks are Homo sapiens.0 -
spurge,
I don't believe I ever said it was not our problem (if I implied that, my apologies - it was not my intent) - I just said it was not our fault.[;)]
However, expecting the current problems in Africa to play themselves out is a little like waiting for Godot. Prior to European involvement in Africa, tribes fought each other like mad and after European involvement tribes fought each other like mad - Europe didn't upset Africa's natural progression to the next higher state, it just upset a status quo that was unremarkable in every aspect except for its level of violence and lack of progress.
Unlike the Middle East, which at times displayed a great deal of civilization and innovation, sub-Saharan Africa (the "Africa" to which I refer to in my posts) showed an almost pathological knack for walking in place. Whereas the Far East, Europe, and the Middle East can all lay claim to history-changing innovations and events, you will note that many self-proclaimed Africa experts have to make things up when it comes to Africa's contributions to human culture and knoweldge - my favorite is the highly suspect "theory" that Africans invented manned flight.
All in all, Africa is, was, and will likely remain a disjointed and autocannibalistic mess because with or without outside influence, their collective growth will remain stunted. If it is allowed to play out, it will only change the population of the planet. If interrupted by outside powers, it will only delay the inevitable backslide into savagery and poverty.
Maybe I'm being harsh on that place, but the evidence of the last 60 years have not led me to believe that any progress is even possible so long as they are left to run things.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
spurge,
I don't believe I ever said it was not our problem (if I implied that, my apologies - it was not my intent) - I just said it was not our fault.[;)]
However, expecting the current problems in Africa to play themselves out is a little like waiting for Godot. Prior to European involvement in Africa, tribes fought each other like mad and after European involvement tribes fought each other like mad - Europe didn't upset Africa's natural progression to the next higher state, it just upset a status quo that was unremarkable in every aspect except for its level of violence and lack of progress.
Unlike the Middle East, which at times displayed a great deal of civilization and innovation, sub-Saharan Africa (the "Africa" to which I refer to in my posts) showed an almost pathological knack for walking in place. Whereas the Far East, Europe, and the Middle East can all lay claim to history-changing innovations and events, you will note that many self-proclaimed Africa experts have to make things up when it comes to Africa's contributions to human culture and knoweldge - my favorite is the highly suspect "theory" that Africans invented manned flight.
All in all, Africa is, was, and will likely remain a disjointed and autocannibalistic mess because with or without outside influence, their collective growth will remain stunted. If it is allowed to play out, it will only change the population of the planet. If interrupted by outside powers, it will only delay the inevitable backslide into savagery and poverty.
Maybe I'm being harsh on that place, but the evidence of the last 60 years have not led me to believe that any progress is even possible so long as they are left to run things.
Fair enough: you never said (nor implied) "not our problem."
Africa was rife with tribal warfare before Europe arrived. It is rife with tribal warfare again, but it's not the same, because it's not the same world. The outcome of a tribal war now impinges on the ability of certain groups to capitalize on the global market.
I guess I'm just more optimistic than you are in this respect. I don't think that a backslide into senseless violence and population growth is what Africa would do, left to its own devices. I see a lot of turmoil and violence in Africa's future--with or without help--but I also think that with a little guidance (yes, help from the west), many of Africa's nations can become productive members of the world economy. This will not happen overnight. But I think it's possible, and maybe even inevitable.
Then again, maybe I'm biased.
Lol. I'd never heard the one about manned flight being invented by Africans.
Edit: I also think that given a few hundred years of colonial rule--during which extreme political circumstances were imposed on the continent--sixty years is a small window of time in which to judge the potential of Africa to sort itself out.0 -
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
spurge,
I don't believe I ever said it was not our problem (if I implied that, my apologies - it was not my intent) - I just said it was not our fault.[;)]
However, expecting the current problems in Africa to play themselves out is a little like waiting for Godot. Prior to European involvement in Africa, tribes fought each other like mad and after European involvement tribes fought each other like mad - Europe didn't upset Africa's natural progression to the next higher state, it just upset a status quo that was unremarkable in every aspect except for its level of violence and lack of progress.
Unlike the Middle East, which at times displayed a great deal of civilization and innovation, sub-Saharan Africa (the "Africa" to which I refer to in my posts) showed an almost pathological knack for walking in place. Whereas the Far East, Europe, and the Middle East can all lay claim to history-changing innovations and events, you will note that many self-proclaimed Africa experts have to make things up when it comes to Africa's contributions to human culture and knoweldge - my favorite is the highly suspect "theory" that Africans invented manned flight.
All in all, Africa is, was, and will likely remain a disjointed and autocannibalistic mess because with or without outside influence, their collective growth will remain stunted. If it is allowed to play out, it will only change the population of the planet. If interrupted by outside powers, it will only delay the inevitable backslide into savagery and poverty.
Maybe I'm being harsh on that place, but the evidence of the last 60 years have not led me to believe that any progress is even possible so long as they are left to run things.
Fair enough: you never said (nor implied) "not our problem."
Africa was rife with tribal warfare before Europe arrived. It is rife with tribal warfare again, but it's not the same, because it's not the same world. The outcome of a tribal war now impinges on the ability of certain groups to capitalize on the global market.
I guess I'm just more optimistic than you are in this respect. I don't think that a backslide into senseless violence and population growth is what Africa would do, left to its own devices. I see a lot of turmoil and violence in Africa's future--with or without help--but I also think that with a little guidance (yes, help from the west), many of Africa's nations can become productive members of the world economy. This will not happen overnight. But I think it's possible, and maybe even inevitable.
Then again, maybe I'm biased.
Lol. I'd never heard the one about manned flight being invented by Africans.
Edit: I also think that given a few hundred years of colonial rule--during which extreme political circumstances were imposed on the continent--sixty years is a small window of time in which to judge the potential of Africa to sort itself out.
If you want to be an African apologist, at least admit it. Sixty years? How about two thousand years? Arabs, Chinese, and Oceania peoples were sailing the open ocean. The wheel had been invented. Agriculture sustained most reigons inhabited by civilized people. Cannibalism was frowned on in most areas of the world. Writing had been created and trade established. Most everything was happening in the world OUTSIDE Africa.
The Abo's of Australia and Africans are the closest living relatives to cavemen still on the planet. No shame in that any more than there is in being a dwarf or having green eyes. It's just a fact of nature. Over time the interracial breeding (and AIDS) will eliminate the traits associated with the low IQ and savagery that permeates that continent. One need only see that deluting African bloodlines can produce exceptional individuals. Halle Berry, Nicole Richie, Tyra Banks, Prince, Condezza Rice, Lional Richie, Thurgood Marshall, etc., show what crossbreeding can do.
I know that crossbreeding gets a cold reception from most people, but hell, a hundred years ago, whites breeding with Injuns got a cold reception (See "The Searchers" with John Wayne). Now however, it is with a measure of pride that most people proudly proclaim an Indian heritage. What the hell? People are people.
Africans are also the "missing link" in the evolutionary march.
JMHO0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
Using Rhodesia and South Africa as a baseline, Africa left on it's own as a whole would revert back to the stone age in fairly short order without Homo Sapien influence.
Cannibalism, tribal warfare, genocide, slavery, and the savagery that once existed in Africa is and has returned in some measure.
Everyone should pull out and let nature take it course.[:0][:(]
+1. Build a fence around Africa, lets go check it out in 100 years.0 -
Wealth and power belong to those people who have been successful since ancient times. Seapower has been the primary tool for trade and thus wealth and great power. American Indians in the western hemisphere, Africans, and other tribal peoples never really got on the boat, so to speak, with seapower, or alliances through which they could benefit from the wealth brought about by more prosperous forms of government, unless they were like the more fortunate American Indians. Don't expect the wealthy to be anything more than users - unless it is to their benefit. 0 -
spurge,
Yes, you are being optimistic, but at least that optimism isn't completely unfounded. However, I still don't buy the colonialism argument because China was heavily invested by foreign powers for several centuries as well and they managed to go from a backwater to a burgeoning superpower in the same 60-year window.
India was just as much a colony and, for all of her problems, is a functional democracy that has yet to experience even one military coup as opposed to the dozens sub-Saharan Africa has experienced.
Africa's history is not unique - many, many others were also colonized and they have not gone the same ruinous route. So to say that colonialism or Western interference has led to their current sad state of affairs leaves out the only variable between Africa and other ex-colonies, namely the inhabitants of Africa.
I hope I'm not biased, though I fear that is not the case. Regardless, I just don't see Africa shaking off this current state of affairs any time soon.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Dennis Smith
OK Kimi, I'll play devil's advocate. So what if some folks like to live close to home? Wasn't America once seclusionist (is that the right word?) Didn't want to get dragged into the European wars?
Native people were born in certain lands. Isn't the land theirs? So what if they like to eat a missionary every now and then? (tastes like fried chicken) So what if Tarzan and Boy like to use gold nuggets in their slingshots?
It's theirs to do with as they will, isn't it?
They might just be right. It's ALL the white mans' greed that brought all the trouble.
Hi Dennis. How are you today?
I think people are going to live where they find it best suits their taste. This might involve some travel to far and distant lands, kind of like rolling the dice a few times before you hit seven or eleven.
Secluionist to what extent? Wars? I think when we did practice better judgement regarding wars, we were as a nation more united than divided, and as a people more tolerant of mankind. Whether such a culture would prove more beneficial than nation-building in order to maintain wealth and power on a world scale is concerned is the question here.
If you believe in finders keepers, then land would indeed belong to those who had it first. However, if you believe in reality, that is simply not the case, not even when American land was inhabited by Indians...even then, the most powerful nations had control of the land.
Don't get me wrong Dennis, the focus of my post was not about the white man's greed, but rather why some people, mostly countries, find themselves in such poverty stricken straits.0 -
White mans greed. What a load of horseshiite. Anyone this is in a position to take will take. I guess you must believe that all the black big daddy's in power in Africa are white.
Now that blacks are running Rhodesia and South Africa, has the common black's life gotten any better? How about worse since those two countries no longer export food but have to import it.
Silly, silly little people.0 -
p3skyking
How much food is being imported to the U.S.A. ? Does anyone know how much beef is imported into the U.S.A. ?0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
White mans greed. What a load of horseshiite. Anyone this is in a position to take will take. I guess you must believe that all the black big daddy's in power in Africa are white.
Now that blacks are running Rhodesia and South Africa, has the common black's life gotten any better? How about worse since those two countries no longer export food but have to import it.
Silly, silly little people.
[8D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by kimi
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
White mans greed. What a load of horseshiite. Anyone this is in a position to take will take. I guess you must believe that all the black big daddy's in power in Africa are white.
Now that blacks are running Rhodesia and South Africa, has the common black's life gotten any better? How about worse since those two countries no longer export food but have to import it.
Silly, silly little people.
[8D]
The black zone is for immediate loading and unloading. There is no parking in the white zone.0
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