Electrical voo-doo 220 w/two wires
This is the only 'forum' I ever visit.
Fortunately, nearly every subject but birth control is covered.
A group of us are buying a small camp.
I am curious about how this is done....it works, I just don't know how.
There are '220' volt appliances in the building.
The incoming service from the transformer is a single insulated wire around the bare 'common'.
All '220' I have ever wired was between the two 'hot' phase inputs.
Any '110' was from either 'hot' to the common ground.
HOW is anything other than '110' generated by this service ?
(I can't get access to the service/breaker panel just now.)
Thanks to those that reply.
EDIT JULY 31 AFTER REPLIES ...
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR REPLIES.....IT MATCHES MY UNDERSTANDING OF 110 AND 220 SERVICE.
FIRSTHARMONIC gets the X....Between the Weatherhead and the Breaker Panel the 'single insulated wire' I see from the incoming service has the outer shell stripped open to reveal a pair of wires. There is NO identification on the insulation, but the diameter of the wires put them at the AWG 4 size.
My posted question bugged me...thanks for your replies. When I found the 'pair' in the panel I was AOK...for about 30 seconds. There is some PHENOMENAL wiring here. Why this place has not burned to the ground I do not know...it is about the equivalent of mom putting a penny under the blown screw in buzz fuse to 'get the electricity back on'.
We have negotiated a price and hope to enjoy some great escapes here......after the electrical contractor installs our basic needs using conduit near the baseboard. The original wiring has been disconnected and pulled out, as much as possible.
Fortunately, nearly every subject but birth control is covered.
A group of us are buying a small camp.
I am curious about how this is done....it works, I just don't know how.
There are '220' volt appliances in the building.
The incoming service from the transformer is a single insulated wire around the bare 'common'.
All '220' I have ever wired was between the two 'hot' phase inputs.
Any '110' was from either 'hot' to the common ground.
HOW is anything other than '110' generated by this service ?
(I can't get access to the service/breaker panel just now.)
Thanks to those that reply.
EDIT JULY 31 AFTER REPLIES ...
THANK YOU ALL FOR YOUR REPLIES.....IT MATCHES MY UNDERSTANDING OF 110 AND 220 SERVICE.
FIRSTHARMONIC gets the X....Between the Weatherhead and the Breaker Panel the 'single insulated wire' I see from the incoming service has the outer shell stripped open to reveal a pair of wires. There is NO identification on the insulation, but the diameter of the wires put them at the AWG 4 size.
My posted question bugged me...thanks for your replies. When I found the 'pair' in the panel I was AOK...for about 30 seconds. There is some PHENOMENAL wiring here. Why this place has not burned to the ground I do not know...it is about the equivalent of mom putting a penny under the blown screw in buzz fuse to 'get the electricity back on'.
We have negotiated a price and hope to enjoy some great escapes here......after the electrical contractor installs our basic needs using conduit near the baseboard. The original wiring has been disconnected and pulled out, as much as possible.
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"The incoming service from the transformer is a single insulated wire around the bare 'common'"
Are you sure that the insulated one is a single wire and not a two- wire cable? That would be unusual but not totally unheard-of, especially in rural areas which were, in years past, often supplied by electrical co-ops and not by a huge electrical utility company.0 -
I might be wrong, but couldn't you just wire 2 110 volt hot sides to the 220 volt outlet and get 220 volts? 0 -
We`re willing to discuss birth control too.What would you like to know? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by slipgate
I might be wrong, but couldn't you just wire 2 110 volt hot sides to the 220 volt outlet and get 220 volts?
No. They would be the same phase so it would still be 110.0 -
Nope,.....110 from 220 is simple.
One hot to ground, not code, but works.
I have no clue what you are referring to.0 -
Open the fuse/breaker box. There should be two hot wires, a neutral, and a bare ground wire.
Measure from either hot bus to neutral and you'll see a nominal 110v. Measure across the hot buses and you'll see 220v nominal.
Since the transformer works only with alternating current, and since it's a step-down transformer, it would make absolutely no sense to float one leg of the unit. Not unless your service transformer only makes 110v... And I've never heard of such a thing.
For those who don't quite understand the workings of domestic 220v...
We take two 110v transformers (though they're really one unit in this case) and we tie them together. We attach a lead at this center point and two more leads, one on each end of our individual transformers. The central lead is what we refer to as neutral.
Since transformers only work on alternating current and this is a step-down transformer, it follows that a somewhat greater incoming voltage is reduced to domestic voltage. In this case each side of our transformer is producing a sine wave that runs from a +110v nominal to a -110v nominal sixty times a second. The secret being that because of the characteristics of our transformer, while one side is climbing toward a +110v, the other is heading toward a -110v.
The result is two distinct phases of 110v ac. Measure either side to neutral and you'll read 110v ac. Measure across and you'll see 220v ac.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
Nope,.....110 from 220 is simple.
One hot to ground, not code, but works.
I have no clue what you are referring to.
...You're not thinking of three phase are you? There's a way to wire 3 phase with one leg to ground. I don't see how to get 220 single phase from from a single 110 wire. That sounds like what he has. I'll have to ponder this one, as I'm more accustomed to working with 3 phase.0 -
Hey Tapwater,......you got my message mixed around in your head!
I said you can get 110 from 220,.......not the opposite.
Say you have a 220V disconnect,.......hook one wire into the 220 lug, put the other into the ground lug. That becomes the neutral, and viola, you have 110V.
It is against code though.
Also, everyone keeps talking about "phases", they are of no concern, unless it is 3 phase. Why do you think it is called single phase?
Hook up 3 phase incorrectly, and loads will run in reverse, if a leg is switched, or out of phase.0 -
...Marc....Sorry. Engaged keyboard without putting brain in gear.
...And yea, I've done that a bunch of times. Nothing at my workplace was up to code anyway. A lot of alligator clips got used for "temporary" indicator lights.0 -
[:D][:D][:D]
Been there, done that!0 -
quote:The result is two distinct phases of 110v ac. Measure either side to neutral and you'll read 110v ac. Measure across and you'll see 220v ac.
that pretty much sums it up, allot of people think they have 2 lines coming in their house 110, and 220, but it is all 110, single and dual phase, it's all about the amps needed0 -
Or more simply put,......two hot wires, that read 110V to ground from each, and 220V across. 220V has no neutral,.....it has a ground wire, if code is followed,i.e. 3 wire.
110V is achieved by the neutral wire going the the ground bar on the panel bus.
All incoming power to a house is 220V, and is reduced to 110V by the above method.0 -
IT COULD BE THE 'HIGH' LEG OF THREE PHASE. ONE WIRE, 220 VOLTS ONLY. YOU'D HAVE TO HAVE A STEP DOWN TRANSFORMER TO GET ANY 110 VOLT POWER. IT MIGHT HAVE BEEN THE EASYEST WAY TO GET POWER TO A REMOTE BUILDING. 0 -
Simply put, you are mistaken about the incoming wire.
As far as the high-leg theory goes, It is 208V to ground, only 1 phase. You need 2 different phases of 110V to make a 220V appliance work correctly.0 -
Not only that, but how often have you seen 3 phase out in the middle of nowhere?
Maybe things are different in other parts of the country, but here, all the 3 phase is commercial, industrial,......or in a VERY small section of the old downtown district, where I have seen residences with 3 phase power, and the matching A/C condensing units.
Most of the calls, are a loss of a leg on the power pole. they love that, when I have to tell them to call the power utility, and hand them a bill.
Lose a leg,.....single phase a compressor, and overheat it, or toss the breaker. I ask EVERYONE these questions, but they want service NOW, and never complain, until they get a bill![8D]0 -
What part of the world?
In Canada they do things a little differently than they do here.
One posibility is that it is 110 phase to ground.
Another possibility is that it is 230 phase to ground and there is a 2:1 transformer somewhere that drops it to 115 phase to ground.
Might be a real good idea to have someone who knows electricity to have a look.0 -
Lectristy? What is that?[:D] 0 -
I would bet with what you know about wire and power you really need to find a friend that does that for a living. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
Hey Tapwater,......you got my message mixed around in your head!
I said you can get 110 from 220,.......not the opposite.
Say you have a 220V disconnect,.......hook one wire into the 220 lug, put the other into the ground lug. That becomes the neutral, and viola, you have 110V.
It is against code though.
Also, everyone keeps talking about "phases", they are of no concern, unless it is 3 phase. Why do you think it is called single phase?
Hook up 3 phase incorrectly, and loads will run in reverse, if a leg is switched, or out of phase.
FYI fire pumps are reqd to be monitored for phase reversal.I have just supplied you with your needless piece of info for the day.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nord
Open the fuse/breaker box. There should be two hot wires, a neutral, and a bare ground wire.
Measure from either hot bus to neutral and you'll see a nominal 110v. Measure across the hot buses and you'll see 220v nominal.
Since the transformer works only with alternating current, and since it's a step-down transformer, it would make absolutely no sense to float one leg of the unit. Not unless your service transformer only makes 110v... And I've never heard of such a thing.
For those who don't quite understand the workings of domestic 220v...
We take two 110v transformers (though they're really one unit in this case) and we tie them together. We attach a lead at this center point and two more leads, one on each end of our individual transformers. The central lead is what we refer to as neutral.
Since transformers only work on alternating current and this is a step-down transformer, it follows that a somewhat greater incoming voltage is reduced to domestic voltage. In this case each side of our transformer is producing a sine wave that runs from a +110v nominal to a -110v nominal sixty times a second. The secret being that because of the characteristics of our transformer, while one side is climbing toward a +110v, the other is heading toward a -110v.
The result is two distinct phases of 110v ac. Measure either side to neutral and you'll read 110v ac. Measure across and you'll see 220v ac.
That is one of the best explainations of 220V that I have ever read. Well done sir. Some day soon you should handle the piggy-back circut breaker for us [;)].0 -
quote:Originally posted by Dennis Smith
Just to muddy the water a little more...the place I work does not have "Y" phase. They have Delta phase. All legs 220v to ground. If you want 110v you have to add a step down transformer. It's a bummer!
...And dangerous for someone not accustomed to it...like me..0 -
quote:Originally posted by Dennis Smith
Just to muddy the water a little more...the place I work does not have "Y" phase. They have Delta phase. All legs 220v to ground. If you want 110v you have to add a step down transformer. It's a bummer!
The "Y" as you call it is a version of 3-phase, know as "Wye". 120V from any one leg to ground, and 208V between any 2 of the 3 legs. The Delta is another version of three phase. 120V from 2 of the 3 legs to ground and 240V (high leg, or wild leg) from the third leg to ground, and 208V between any 2 of the 3 hot legs.
Here is a good link that probably explains it alot better than me.
http://www.phaseconverterinfo.com/phaseconverter_deltawye.htm0 -
quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
Hey Tapwater,......you got my message mixed around in your head!
I said you can get 110 from 220,.......not the opposite.
Say you have a 220V disconnect,.......hook one wire into the 220 lug, put the other into the ground lug. That becomes the neutral, and viola, you have 110V.
It is against code though.
Also, everyone keeps talking about "phases", they are of no concern, unless it is 3 phase. Why do you think it is called single phase?
Hook up 3 phase incorrectly, and loads will run in reverse, if a leg is switched, or out of phase.
They've got a name for this kind of system.
My first reaction was "farmer something-another".
Now that I think of it, I think the term I'm thinking of is a "Farmer's 3-way"
The term I'm looking for is "Edison something-another"
Yes, it's not code, and I believe the con is that it can cause some shocks if there is a short.0 -
quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
http://www.thepill.com/html/ppil/birth-control.jsp?&gclid=CP3M38WK1o0CFR3JYAodfxEScg
[:D]
Dang. Do you ever sleep?0
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