Texas and the Castle Doctrine
Houston & Texas News
Feb. 12, 2007, 1:50PM
Bills filed in Austin to shoot first, retreat later in self-defense
By JIM VERTUNO
Associated Press
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AUSTIN - Castle Doctrine sounds like a medieval warning to invaders: Cross this moat and suffer the consequences.
A pair of Republican state lawmakers now want to use it to revise Texas' modern-day self-defense laws.
Sen. Jeff Wentworth of San Antonio and Rep. Joe Driver of Garland have sponsored bills to have Texas join more than a dozen states with the so-called "Castle Doctrine," a sort of shoot-first, retreat-later approach to defending hearth, home, truck and business.
Essentially, the Castle Doctrine is born out of the common-law theory that a man's home is his castle and he has a right to defend it.
And although
It would create a legal presumption that an intruder is there to cause death or great bodily harm and that victims have the right to use deadly force. He says current law in some instances imposes a duty to retreat before using potentially deadly force on an intruder.
"I believe Texans who are attacked in their homes, their businesses, their vehicles or Texas already has some of the broadest self-defense laws in the country, Wentworth says his bill would expand the legal rights of crime victims to protect themselves, their relatives and their property from intruders in their home, occupied vehicles or business.anywhere else have a right to defend themselves from attack without fear of being prosecuted and face possible civil suits alleging wrongful injury or death," Wentworth said.
More than a dozen other states have written the Castle Doctrine into law and the National Rifle Association is among those pushing for Texas to join them.
"It is fundamental that honest, law-abiding citizens know the law is on their side if ever they are faced with danger from criminal attack," said Chris Cox, the NRA's chief lobbyist in Washington, D.C.
But critics deride it as a "shoot-to-kill" bill that allows for more violence and removes a tool from prosecutors.
"It's not Castle Doctrine. That's in the home and you have a right to defend the home," said Peter Hamm, spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "This is the Kingdom Doctrine and you can kill someone anywhere in public. That's a far cry from the home."
Legal experts wonder if they change is really needed.
Jerry Dowling, a criminal justice professor at Sam Houston State University, said state law already protects self-defense of life and property, particularly in one's home, or castle.
"I've lived in Texas 30-plus years and I would be astounded to hear of a Texas jury that convicted someone who blasted a guy who was in his house," Dowling said. "It would just be anathema to the culture down here."
Prosecutors have had mixed reactions to the bill, said Shannon Edmonds, spokesman for the Texas District and County Attorneys Association.
District Attorneys are waiting for proponents of the change to produce an example of someone wrongfully convicted and imprisoned in Texas for an act of self-defense.
"Is this a solution in search of a problem?" Edmonds said.
Hamm said the courts are quite capable of deciding what is justifiable force.
"The police, prosecutors and juries decide whether you acted in legitimate self-defense," Hamm said. "That system works."
But the bills already have broad support. Wentworth's office said nearly all of the 31 state senators have signed onto his bill and more than 100 house members have signed Driver's bill in that chamber.
According to a 2006 report by the House Committee on Criminal Jurisprudence, Texas law was based on the castle doctrine until 1973, when it was changed to make use of force justifiable only if a reasonable person would not have retreated.
Dowling, the professor, said it's reasonable in Texas to expect the use of deadly force in a home invasion.
"That's what I tell my students," Dowling said. "By God, the reasonable Texan never retreats."
Feb. 12, 2007, 1:50PM
Bills filed in Austin to shoot first, retreat later in self-defense
By JIM VERTUNO
Associated Press
TOOLS
Email Get section feed
Print Subscribe NOW
AUSTIN - Castle Doctrine sounds like a medieval warning to invaders: Cross this moat and suffer the consequences.
A pair of Republican state lawmakers now want to use it to revise Texas' modern-day self-defense laws.
Sen. Jeff Wentworth of San Antonio and Rep. Joe Driver of Garland have sponsored bills to have Texas join more than a dozen states with the so-called "Castle Doctrine," a sort of shoot-first, retreat-later approach to defending hearth, home, truck and business.
Essentially, the Castle Doctrine is born out of the common-law theory that a man's home is his castle and he has a right to defend it.
And although
It would create a legal presumption that an intruder is there to cause death or great bodily harm and that victims have the right to use deadly force. He says current law in some instances imposes a duty to retreat before using potentially deadly force on an intruder.
"I believe Texans who are attacked in their homes, their businesses, their vehicles or Texas already has some of the broadest self-defense laws in the country, Wentworth says his bill would expand the legal rights of crime victims to protect themselves, their relatives and their property from intruders in their home, occupied vehicles or business.anywhere else have a right to defend themselves from attack without fear of being prosecuted and face possible civil suits alleging wrongful injury or death," Wentworth said.
More than a dozen other states have written the Castle Doctrine into law and the National Rifle Association is among those pushing for Texas to join them.
"It is fundamental that honest, law-abiding citizens know the law is on their side if ever they are faced with danger from criminal attack," said Chris Cox, the NRA's chief lobbyist in Washington, D.C.
But critics deride it as a "shoot-to-kill" bill that allows for more violence and removes a tool from prosecutors.
"It's not Castle Doctrine. That's in the home and you have a right to defend the home," said Peter Hamm, spokesman for the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence. "This is the Kingdom Doctrine and you can kill someone anywhere in public. That's a far cry from the home."
Legal experts wonder if they change is really needed.
Jerry Dowling, a criminal justice professor at Sam Houston State University, said state law already protects self-defense of life and property, particularly in one's home, or castle.
"I've lived in Texas 30-plus years and I would be astounded to hear of a Texas jury that convicted someone who blasted a guy who was in his house," Dowling said. "It would just be anathema to the culture down here."
Prosecutors have had mixed reactions to the bill, said Shannon Edmonds, spokesman for the Texas District and County Attorneys Association.
District Attorneys are waiting for proponents of the change to produce an example of someone wrongfully convicted and imprisoned in Texas for an act of self-defense.
"Is this a solution in search of a problem?" Edmonds said.
Hamm said the courts are quite capable of deciding what is justifiable force.
"The police, prosecutors and juries decide whether you acted in legitimate self-defense," Hamm said. "That system works."
But the bills already have broad support. Wentworth's office said nearly all of the 31 state senators have signed onto his bill and more than 100 house members have signed Driver's bill in that chamber.
According to a 2006 report by the House Committee on Criminal Jurisprudence, Texas law was based on the castle doctrine until 1973, when it was changed to make use of force justifiable only if a reasonable person would not have retreated.
Dowling, the professor, said it's reasonable in Texas to expect the use of deadly force in a home invasion.
"That's what I tell my students," Dowling said. "By God, the reasonable Texan never retreats."
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Right on Texas!!! 0 -
Since I don't normally pack heat inside my home, I guess I'd have to retreat far enough to arm myself. That's good enough. Of course, here in Colorado, we aren't told we have to leave our homes and only fire if we can't first flee. 0 -
Should be legal in every state. 0 -
It is a good idea, if for no other reason than to stop the civil lawsuits against the victims that typically follow... The bad guy breaks in your home with a gun obviously up to no good (paraphrasing here a bit), you end the situation appropriately (9mm, .45, 12G, etc) and bingo ! you are now on trial for killing someone that tried to do you in first.
Its a better idea, when the bad guys wise up and start thinking... (break in, get shot, die... better not do this).
Just my .020 -
VIVA TEJAS!! 0 -
Doesn't Florida have a "shoot first, ask questions later" law? I think the anti carry crowd has went hysterical over this. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
Should be legal in every state.
Working on it here in WV. The Castle Doctrine has already passed the state senate unanimously and has moved on to the state house where it should alos pass without any problems.
http://www.nraila.org/CurrentLegislation/Read.aspx?ID=2601-L0 -
WOW I would have thought that Texas already had such a law!! 0 -
The great thing about these laws, is you would not have to go to court period. In my state, our state constitution, and our state supreme court rulings have said that citizens have no duty to retreat but may stand their ground and meet force with force. Now that we actually have the law, no over zealous prosecuter can make you come to court to defend your actions. 0 -
"The police, prosecutors and juries decide whether you acted in legitimate self-defense," Hamm said."
Yeah, I don't much trust them all too much to make that decision for me.
Ben0 -
Now that you can legally carry a firearm in your vehicle in Texas without a permit, I expect there will be some flack over this.
Since this law has been enacted in several other states, it has a good chance of passing. (I hope).0 -
quote:Originally posted by TexasVet
Now that you can legally carry a firearm in your vehicle in Texas without a permit, I expect there will be some flack over this.
Since this law has been enacted in several other states, it has a good chance of passing. (I hope).
When did they change the rule about carrying in your car? Or will it change if this new legistation is passed?
I'm in NE. LA. and while my CCW is good in TX. most of my family doesn't have one and frequently travel to TX.
Ben0 -
After that Texas needs an open carry enacted. Man, wouldn't that be sweet.
Mike0 -
You can't open carry in texas, or carry in your vehicle without a permit? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by TexasVet
Now that you can legally carry a firearm in your vehicle in Texas without a permit, I expect there will be some flack over this.
Since this law has been enacted in several other states, it has a good chance of passing. (I hope).
I would check very close before assuming this. I called two different police departments and asked this question and they told me it was agianst the law still to carry a loaded firearm within reach of the driver.0 -
Not to argue with anyone (I have my CHL) but that is what I was told by a former CHL Instructor a while back.
Nunn would know for sure.0 -
One signature away from law here in ND. 0 -
Dak To 68
Senior Member
USA
1419 Posts
Posted - 02/12/2007 : 8:57:42 PM
Doesn't Florida have a "shoot first, ask questions later" law? I think the anti carry crowd has went hysterical over this.
Yes Florida has this law, and in a couple years has it been needed only a few times. Contrary to what the anti gunners believed would happen we have had no "Citizen" shootouts in the streets.
The loaded gun in the car law has not produced any problems with the law abiding citizens either.
There has been only .049 percent ( less that 1/2 of one percent) crimes committed by a person with a legal carry permit in this state.
I wish the idiots of the world would wake up to the fact that only 12 percent of all the violent crimes in this country are commited with the use of a firearm. Do something about the other 88 percent. Ban criminals not Guns..[;)]0 -
I am a CHL holder in Texas, and as I understand it, the law regarding carrying in a car says that it is legal to have a gun in the car while "traveling". There has been much discussion about what constitutes "traveling". Some say anytime you are in your car, other say that a trip to the grocery store is not covered. Some District Attorneys (Houston area particularly) are telling LEOs to arrest anyone without a CHL that has a gun in the car and let the courts sort it out. So, in spite of the legislation, it's all still up in the air. My advice - be careful carrying in a car without a CHL in Texas. Maybe the new legislature will clarify their intent this session. FWIW. 0 -
In Colorado, if you can legally posess one, you can have a loaded handgun in plain view in your car.
Here's where it gets weird....
You can get busted for carrying a loaded weapon in your car because of CDOW regulations against it.
So you can have a loaded handgun in your car, according to the cops.
Except the Wildlife cops.
I suspect there is often leeway granted here to those who are polite and accomodating to law enforcement when pulled over.
So if ya get pulled over and have a loaded handgun in the car and you're respectful, the firearms gets little or no notice. I made sure the CSP Trooper knew it was in the seat next to me. He told me my license plate light was out, and, since I was obviously sober, let me skedaddle.
I have no doubt that, had I chosen to be an asshat about being stopped for such a silly infraction, my Ruger SBH would've immediately become a loaded hunting firearm and I'd have been cited under DOW rules.
Just another reason to be polite to the nice po-lice-man.0 -
Be careful in Texas carrying in your vehicle without a permit. The "rules" are interpreted differently by different people (including different police officials). I had heard that the law in Texas changed during the last legislative session. Consulted a friend, a good attorney. He had no knowledge of any change. Since he is a "gun guy" would have expected him to know.
IMHO - Prior law (and to my knowledge still current law) for persons traveling who do not have a permit --- traveling is going from a county to a different county with the intentions of spending the night. Driving 50 miles to the nearest "city" to shop and then return home is not traveling. In addition, when you reach your travel destination (where you intend to spend the night) and register in a hotel or stop at the cousin's house, you have finished traveling. You should remove the weapon from you vehicle and not put it back until you begin the trip homeward.
In NM your vehicle is an extension of your home. If it is legal to have it in your home, it is legal in your auto. They also have an open carry law. If you want to strap one on and go downtown, do it. You will get lots of strange looks, but it is not illegal.0 -
Texas Law on Travel was defined in the last Legislature in 2005
The deifinition for travel had never been in the law up til then judges apparently came up with that county overnight myth/
The law now defines traveling as
1. In a private motor vehicle;
2. Not otherwise engaged in criminal activity other than class
C misdemeanor involving traffic;0 -
well some how I pushed a key that gave part not all
3.Not otherwise prohibited by law from possessing a firearm;
4.nOT A MEMBER OF A CRIMINAL STREET GENG AS DEFINED BY SECTION
71,01;
5.nOT CARRYING A HANDGUN IN PLAINVIEW.
Now that says what the texas legislature made law effective Sept 1 2005
I am a chl instructor here in texas ans I dont feel personally that this defines traveling but it is the law and until it is changed
or modified thats what i instruct in the class.
True enough many D As said that they wanted law enforcement to arrest and seize unless they had a texas License or on that texas reciprocates with
Hope this answers the no license carry in vehicle or the
"TRAVELING LAW" in texas0 -
O B Juan - Carrying in plain view or carrying in Plainview? Are you from the Panhandle? I live about 60 miles from Plainview. LOL
BTW - Thanks for the clarification. Presume that you are citing a new law??????????0 -
In Virginia we have a preemptive strike law. If you believe that another person presents a clear and present danger or will do so in the near future, you can engage. Just the other day I put a round through the snot-nosed 16 year old who lives down the street. Dreadlocks and smelling like a Allman Brothers tour-bus made me suspicious, and when I saw him wearing a Clinton in 08 button I knew I had to act. 0 -
to wtroper
on the border in the Valley
In the auto "not in Plainview"
Not Really new. Sept 1st 2005
as far as walking down the street with it strapped on in "plainview"
I think you would attract a lot of attention that you wouldnt really want.... thats why there is a CHL in Texas.0 -
to wtroper
on the border in the Valley
In the auto "not in Plain view"
Not Really new. Sept 1st 2005
as far as walking down the street with it strapped on in "plain view"
I think you would attract a lot of attention that you wouldnt really want.... thats why there is a CHL in Texas.0
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