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Unintentional anticipation, recoil "flinching"

first_timer
What can I do, to tell if I am unintentionally anticipating recoil of my .40 semi-autos at the range?

My shot grouping patterns lately can hardly even be called "grouping" anymore, they are so scattered. I try not to anticipate, breath right, relax, s-q-u-e-e-z-e the trigger, aim correctly at front sight and target....but I have a suspicion that without meaning to , or realizing it, I am missing because of recoil anticipation(and unconscious compensating)at time of firing my semi-auto pistols.

How can I tell?
And/or how can I stop that?
Please??
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Comments

32 comments

Date Votes
  • tapwater
    ...Have a friend load your gun. Maybe there is one in the chamber or not. Dummys work well for that. (The shells, not the friend) It's easier if you can borrow a revolver. You can do it yourself, Russian roulette style. Load one or two chambers and commence aiming and firing as usual. The flinch will be apparent.
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  • spryor
    Yep, that's what I'd do with shooting partners that had trouble with
    groupings. I'd hand them an unloaded gun to shoot. It was obvious
    immediately what their problem was.
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  • kimi
    quote:Originally posted by first_timer
    What can I do, to tell if I am unintentionally anticipating recoil of my .40 semi-autos at the range?

    My shot grouping patterns lately can hardly even be called "grouping" anymore, they are so scattered. I try not to anticipate, breath right, relax, s-q-u-e-e-z-e the trigger, aim correctly at front sight and target....but I have a suspicion that without meaning to , or realizing it, I am missing because of recoil anticipation(and unconscious compensating)at time of firing my semi-auto pistols.

    How can I tell?
    And/or how can I stop that?
    Please??


    Perhaps, the best indicator that a shooter can have as regards flinching/anticipation is for the shot not to totally surprise them when it sounds. If you are not surprised when you hear the sound of the shot, then 100% concentration is not on the sight picture. If this is the case, then you will not be able to "follow through" and "call your shot". All other aspects of firing a shot, to include, the most important of all...trigger control must be kind of like the working components of a well oiled, precision machine. Another indicator would be the "shot pattern".

    In my limited experience with handguns, I'm of the opinion that when firing same, that the trigger is not squeezed but rather mashed, more similar to how one would control the trigger of a high power rifle during rapid fire.
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  • Oklahoma223
    Gun skills come by repitition, muscle memory. Like when you put your keys in the ignition of your car. After a few thousand times, it becomes a natural motion. Rome wasn't built in a day. Just be patient and consistent and practice. You will improve.
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  • first_timer
    Yes, I practice just about every weekend for about 3 hrs, Oklahoma223.

    Kimi,
    OK, I'll "mash" the trigger(I used to do that), but varied when my shots started ending up all over the target....probably for other reasons)
    But would you please explain what you said? It sounded interesting, but where there more "not"s in it than you intended. I don't understand, please.
    You wrote:
    "Perhaps, the best indicator that a shooter can have as regards flinching/anticipation is for the shot not to totally surprise them when it sounds. If you are not surprised when you hear the sound of the shot, then 100% concentration is not on the sight picture. If this is the case, then you will not be able to "follow through" and "call your shot". All other aspects of firing a shot, to include, the most important of all...trigger control must be kind of like the working components of a well oiled, precision machine. Another indicator would be the "shot pattern".

    Please explain again?
    (and what did you mean by "trigger control, please?)
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  • kimi
    Sure, no problem. Once the sights are properly lined up on the target that you are firing at you have what is called "sight picture". While you are in the process of trying to hold a "perfect sight picture" the gun will go off! If you think to yourself at that moment, something like, "I did not expect the gun to go off!" or "Wow! Was that ever a surprise!" Then you will know for certain that you did not "anticipate recoil, or flinch" since your concentration on trying to hold a "perfect sight picture" was so intense that you were honestly surprised when you heard the gun go boom! This, of course, does not mean that you will hit your target either, but it does mean that you know "exactly" what your "sight picture" looked like at the very instant that the shot made its noisy sound. This means that for an instant, a mental image of the "sight picture" as it was at the exact moment the gun went off will be burned into your "mind's eye". This "burned mental image" will then tell you where your handgun was aiming in relation to the target you wanted to hit - and this is what happens during "follow through". This will enable you to "call the shot". When this happens, and only when this happens, will you know for sure where your bullet hit in relation to the target, which is the same as "calling the shot". This will also assure you that you did not anticipate recoil, or flinch. This is what is meant by a shooter when they tell someone that the shot must be a "surprise". I hope this is more easily understood.

    Sorry about the corrections here, but I needed to clarify it a little better.
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  • Txs
    Target analysis can give an indication of what is going wrong.
    If you're anticipating recoil your hits will be scattering low.

    What exactly do your groups look like? Are they round? If they're elliptical, what angle are they stringing? Are the rounds primarily scattering in a certain direction from your point of aim or are they evenly distributed in all directions?

    As for repetition building muscle memory, this is correct. However, it's a matter of first developing correct form and then repeating this a ton of times so it becomes wired into your brain. To do otherwise imprints all those bad moves.
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  • MVP
    have your gunsmith do a trigger job and lighten the pull.[8D]
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  • first_timer
    Thamks, Kimi
    Now I do understand what you were saying.
    That's the way I used to do it, but somehow "got into a bad zone" of habits" I'll do that again, I know you are right.

    And Txs,
    I know you are right too. Repetition of bad habit is the worded thing I could do. Good technique AND repetition!

    Unfortunately my "pattern" most often lately has looked like a scatterred line from high right...thru the center...and then continuing in "that rough line" to lower left.

    Does that tell you anything in particular as target analysis, friend?

    MVP, I'll consider that. I have nine different semi-autos(could be expensive:

    ALL .40 caliber----
    Beretta Cougar
    Sig P239
    Springfield XD-40 subcompact
    Glock 23
    Glock 27
    Baby Desert Eagle
    Steyr 40M1-A
    Taurus Millenium Pro PT140
    CZ75B
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  • kimi
    That's a pattern of jerking the trigger (lower left) to heeling (high right), if I am remembering correctly. To jerk the trigger, one must anticipate the shot, which causes one to flinch, too.
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  • first_timer
    "jerking" the trigger?
    Wow...I'm really surprised!
    I thought I'd been very deliberate about the trigger pull.
    I'll check that at the range.

    Thanks,

    HOW CAN I GET THOSE KINDS OF TARGET ANALYSIS TOOLS/INDICATION/EXPLANATIONS, KIMI PLEASE?
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  • kimi
    I need to do some work right now, first_timer, but I have seen links to this issue posted in the Ask the Experts Forum on more than one ocassion. If no one comes up with anything for you in the next few hours, then I'll try to google handgun shot patterns and see what I can find.
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  • Marc1301
    A great aid for trigger pull practice is a laser.
    You put a snap cap in, and aim at a target on your wall in your house, just like you were shooting,.........watch what happens to the lasers "wobble zone", as you concentrate, and pull the trigger.
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  • Txs
    quote:Originally posted by first_timer
    Unfortunately my "pattern" most often lately has looked like a scatterred line from high right...thru the center...and then continuing in "that rough line" to lower left.I'd say a combination of heeling (applying pressure with the lower portion of your palm in anticipation of recoil) and milking the grip (squeezing slightly with the other fingers as the trigger is pressed).

    Focus attention on isolating the movement of your trigger finger. No muscles in the hand should move that aren't involved in moving this finger. Follow this total isolation of movement all the way through to the trigger stop.

    When the round fires, keep the trigger to the rear for a brief time and then slowly release pressure until you achieve sear reset (that little click felt through the trigger that tells you the gun is ready to fire again). Do not release the trigger any further than this point. Upon feeling the sear reset begin applying steady pressure to the rear again. During this entire process you should be concentrating on moving ONLY your trigger finger.

    If you're keeping your eye sharply focused on the top edge of your front sight and and working hard at isolating the trigger finger movement all the way through you won't be able to anticipate the round going off.

    When working on isolation of movement, lots of dry fire is beneficial. Practice your movements slowly and precisely, don't sacrifice good technique for speed. Technique is most important, because if you do anything often enough speed inevitably comes.
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  • first_timer
    Thanks, Kimi

    Marc1301,
    I'll give that a try. I have lasers on 2 of my pistols.
    I can easily hold a bead on "a target" with only maybe a half inch waver at 35 feet....but I'll try the trigger pull and see what happens then. If the dot only moves slightly, then I'm back to the "recoil anticipation" thing again(which might be part of a trigger jerk problem.


    Thanks, Guys!
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  • first_timer
    Thanks Txs,
    I think my Baby Eagle came with what looked like little Dry Fire cylinders.

    I guess it's better on the gun to use those if I'm going to be dry firing BoatLoads and BoatLoads for repetition and practice, Huh?
    (do I just insert them into the barrel receiver like it is a round ready to be fired, or what please?

    You are so kind to help me this much....I very much Appreciate it!!
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  • Txs
    quote:Originally posted by first_timer
    (do I just insert them into the barrel receiver like it is a round ready to be fired, or what please?You've got it.

    Keep in mind you can never check to insure the gun is unloaded too often. Anytime you walk away from the gun or simply set it down for a break, check it again before resuming dry fire. Brain flatulence occurs.

    BTW-After the hammer falls when dry firing a semiauto you'll probably have to reach up and move the slide slightly to the rear in order for the sear to reset as the trigger is released.
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  • kimi
    Txs makes some very good points. Once when I was a member of a shooting team, the Captain of the Marine Corps R&P Team was giving us pointers on how we might improve our shooting skills. One thing he mentioned about becoming one with the .45 was to grip it very tight, thumb relaxed, but not so tight to cause a shaking, or trembling. You can read into that what you will. Another thing he made a point of was to ensure that all the muscles from the elbow to the grip were tight, except for those in the trigger finger which were more relaxed, and that all muscles in the upper arm were more relaxed, too. So when you think about these few remarks about muscle control, it is easy to see how such techniques, when studied and practiced, especially when coupled with countless hours of dry firing, would aid in isolating movement in the gunhand to the trigger finger alone. Another technique you might want to consider is making sure that the pistol and forearm are in line with one another, but this will depend upon what stance you are using though.
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  • bobski
    are you shooting one handed or 2 handed?
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  • select-fire
    If you are afraid of the recoil get a smaller caliber.
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  • David Nunn
    Here is a twist on dry firing. When dry firing, set a dime on the slide top, or top of the front sight, wherever you can find a semi-flat surface near the front of the slide. The idea is to keep the dime from falling off when you drop the hammer.

    Do it many thousands of times until it becomes ingrained in your muscle memory.
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  • Colt Super
    I think mentioned what nunn said on another one of your threads, only suggesting a quarter instead of a dime.

    When I started doing that, I made the biggest improvement I have ever made in my shooting skills.

    Doug
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  • Mr. Gunz
    quote:Originally posted by first_timer
    What can I do, to tell if I am unintentionally anticipating recoil of my .40 semi-autos at the range?

    My shot grouping patterns lately can hardly even be called "grouping" anymore, they are so scattered. I try not to anticipate, breath right, relax, s-q-u-e-e-z-e the trigger, aim correctly at front sight and target....but I have a suspicion that without meaning to , or realizing it, I am missing because of recoil anticipation(and unconscious compensating)at time of firing my semi-auto pistols.

    How can I tell?
    And/or how can I stop that?
    Please??


    How to stop it???

    Two words...it helped me
    DRY FIRE



    Put an empty or buy a snap cap and put it in your gun and just keep on sqweezing the trigger concentrating on having your sights not move
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  • kimi
    quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
    I think mentioned what nunn said on another one of your threads, only suggesting a quarter instead of a dime.

    When I started doing that, I made the biggest improvement I have ever made in my shooting skills.

    Doug


    That is a good exercise, Doug, be it with a dime, nickel, penny, whatever. We would use this test with service rifles as well.
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  • buschmaster
    that's for target shooting. if you're really going to practice shooting something, make like you're going to punch it with your fist. expect the gun to go off and pop the sucker. no flinch, cuz you're "punching" it. sucky groupings though.
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  • Grunt2
    Tapwater got it first....I'm a "pusher" when it comes to recoil anticipation..I do allot of dry firing , live fire practice and I wear both plugs and muffs...Some days...are just bad days.....Practice...Practice...Practice...
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  • first_timer
    I'll try that "pushing" technique.
    What the "problem for me is that with 9 diiferent semi-autos, all with different trigger pulls and lengths, I have trouble knowing when each will fire to be accurate.

    Can a gunsmith make them sort of simmilar on length of pull(trigger pull pounds is less important to me than pull length?

    They are:
    ALL .40 caliber----
    Beretta Cougar 8040
    Sig P239
    Springfield XD-40 subcompact
    Glock 23
    Glock 27
    Baby Desert Eagle
    Steyr 40M1-A
    Taurus Millenium Pro PT140
    CZ75B

    Can a gun smith make the trigger pull length more "uniform"?
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  • HandgunHTR52
    If you have the funds, I would suggest getting a .22 pistol. You can get lots of tigger time with very little recoil and very little expense. Dry firing is good too, but if it is a mental thing, your brain will always tell your hands that it is ok because there is no live round in the chamber. My wife had the same problem with rifles and the way we fixed it was lots and lots of trigger time with a .22. Just my $.02.
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  • bobski
    gun size and trigger let off is meaningless....its all the same IF you treat your trigger finger like a hydralic piston. once you begin the trigger squeeze, never let go or stop until the discharge.
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  • first_timer
    Thanks, HandgunHTR52
    I should receive shipment soon of an excellent .22 conversion kit for my Glick 23 by Advantage Arms.

    Bobski,
    I never do "let-off".
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