U.S. Troops Died After, Not In, Sneak Attack
Troops died after, not in, sneak attack
By STEVEN R. HURST and QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA, Associated Press Writers 1 hour, 27 minutes ago
yahoo.com
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Contrary to public statements by the U.S. military, four U.S. soldiers did not die repelling a sneak attack at the governor's office in the Shiite holy city of Karbala last week. New information obtained by The Associated Press shows they were abducted and found dead or dying as far as 25 miles away.
ADVERTISEMENT
The brazen assault, 50 miles south of Baghdad on Jan. 20, was conducted by nine to 12 militants posing as an American security team. They traveled in black GMC Suburban vehicles _ the type used by U.S. government convoys _ had American weapons, wore new U.S. military combat fatigues, and spoke English.
In a written statement, the U.S. command reported at the time that five soldiers were killed while "repelling the attack." Now, two senior U.S. military officials as well as Iraqi officials say four of the five were captured and taken from the governor's compound alive. Three of them were found dead and one mortally wounded later that evening in locations as far as 25 miles east of the governor's office.
The U.S. officials said they could not be sure where the soldiers were shot after being captured at the compound. Iraqi officials said they believe the men were killed just before the Suburbans were abandoned.
The commando team also took an unclassified U.S. computer with them as its members fled with the four soldiers and left behind an American M-4 automatic rifle, senior U.S. military officials said.
The new information has emerged after nearly a week of inquiries. The U.S. military in Baghdad repeatedly declined comment on reports that began emerging from Iraqi government and military officials which suggested a major breakdown in security at Karbala site.
The two senior American military officials now confirm the reports, gathered by The Associated Press from five senior Iraqi government, military and religious leaders. The U.S. military also has provided additional details from internal military accounts.
None of the American or Iraqi officials would allow use of their names because of the sensitive nature of the information.
The Karbala raid, as explained by the Iraqi and American officials, began after nightfall at about 6 p.m. on Jan. 20, while American military officers were meeting with their Iraqi counterparts on the main floor of the Provisional Joint Coordination Center (PJCC) in Karbala.
The first U.S. military statement on the raid, which reported five soldiers killed and three wounded, said "the PJCC is a coordination center where local Iraqi officials, Iraqi security forces and coalition forces stationed within the center meet to address the security needs of the population."
Iraqi officials said the approaching convoy of black GMC Suburbans was waved through an Iraqi checkpoint at the edge of Karbala. The Iraqi soldiers believed it to be American because of the type of vehicles, the distinctive camouflage American uniforms and the fact that they spoke English. One Iraqi official said the leader of the assault team was blond, but no other official confirmed that.
A top Iraqi security official for Karbala province told the AP that the Iraqi guards at the checkpoint radioed ahead to their compatriots at the PJCC to alert them that the convoy was on its way.
Iraqi officials said the attackers' convoy divided upon arrival, with some vehicles parking at the back of the main building where the meeting was taking place, others parked in front.
The U.S. military in Baghdad received a first report of the attack about 6:15 p.m., the senior U.S. military officials said.
The attackers threw a grenade and opened fire with automatic rifles as they grabbed two soldiers inside the compound. Then the guerrilla assault team jumped on top of an armored U.S. Humvee and captured two more soldiers, the U.S. military officials said.
One U.S. soldier was killed in the melee at the compound, and three were wounded.
All the officials agreed the four abducted soldiers did not die in the fighting at the compound in Karbala, but it was unclear where they were killed.
The attackers fled with the four and the computer and headed east toward Mahwil, in neighboring Babil province, about 25 miles away, the U.S. military officials said.
The U.S. accounts did not say where the soldiers were killed. Iraqi officials said the four were captured alive and shot just before the vehicles were abandoned.
Iraqi officials said the U.S. military found the four U.S. soldiers in the Suburbans near Bu-Alwan, a village near Mahawil.
The U.S. officials, who had seen incident reports of the assault, said the documents indicated two of the soldiers were found in one of the Suburbans at one location and two others in a second Suburban elsewhere. The exact locations were not specified, they said.
Both sides agreed that _ when found _ three soldiers were dead and one was wounded and died as U.S. troops rushed the service member away for treatment.
Three days afterward, the U.S. military in Baghdad announced the arrest of four suspects in the attack and said they had been detained on a tip from a Karbala resident. No further information was released about the suspects.
By STEVEN R. HURST and QASSIM ABDUL-ZAHRA, Associated Press Writers 1 hour, 27 minutes ago
yahoo.com
BAGHDAD, Iraq - Contrary to public statements by the U.S. military, four U.S. soldiers did not die repelling a sneak attack at the governor's office in the Shiite holy city of Karbala last week. New information obtained by The Associated Press shows they were abducted and found dead or dying as far as 25 miles away.
ADVERTISEMENT
The brazen assault, 50 miles south of Baghdad on Jan. 20, was conducted by nine to 12 militants posing as an American security team. They traveled in black GMC Suburban vehicles _ the type used by U.S. government convoys _ had American weapons, wore new U.S. military combat fatigues, and spoke English.
In a written statement, the U.S. command reported at the time that five soldiers were killed while "repelling the attack." Now, two senior U.S. military officials as well as Iraqi officials say four of the five were captured and taken from the governor's compound alive. Three of them were found dead and one mortally wounded later that evening in locations as far as 25 miles east of the governor's office.
The U.S. officials said they could not be sure where the soldiers were shot after being captured at the compound. Iraqi officials said they believe the men were killed just before the Suburbans were abandoned.
The commando team also took an unclassified U.S. computer with them as its members fled with the four soldiers and left behind an American M-4 automatic rifle, senior U.S. military officials said.
The new information has emerged after nearly a week of inquiries. The U.S. military in Baghdad repeatedly declined comment on reports that began emerging from Iraqi government and military officials which suggested a major breakdown in security at Karbala site.
The two senior American military officials now confirm the reports, gathered by The Associated Press from five senior Iraqi government, military and religious leaders. The U.S. military also has provided additional details from internal military accounts.
None of the American or Iraqi officials would allow use of their names because of the sensitive nature of the information.
The Karbala raid, as explained by the Iraqi and American officials, began after nightfall at about 6 p.m. on Jan. 20, while American military officers were meeting with their Iraqi counterparts on the main floor of the Provisional Joint Coordination Center (PJCC) in Karbala.
The first U.S. military statement on the raid, which reported five soldiers killed and three wounded, said "the PJCC is a coordination center where local Iraqi officials, Iraqi security forces and coalition forces stationed within the center meet to address the security needs of the population."
Iraqi officials said the approaching convoy of black GMC Suburbans was waved through an Iraqi checkpoint at the edge of Karbala. The Iraqi soldiers believed it to be American because of the type of vehicles, the distinctive camouflage American uniforms and the fact that they spoke English. One Iraqi official said the leader of the assault team was blond, but no other official confirmed that.
A top Iraqi security official for Karbala province told the AP that the Iraqi guards at the checkpoint radioed ahead to their compatriots at the PJCC to alert them that the convoy was on its way.
Iraqi officials said the attackers' convoy divided upon arrival, with some vehicles parking at the back of the main building where the meeting was taking place, others parked in front.
The U.S. military in Baghdad received a first report of the attack about 6:15 p.m., the senior U.S. military officials said.
The attackers threw a grenade and opened fire with automatic rifles as they grabbed two soldiers inside the compound. Then the guerrilla assault team jumped on top of an armored U.S. Humvee and captured two more soldiers, the U.S. military officials said.
One U.S. soldier was killed in the melee at the compound, and three were wounded.
All the officials agreed the four abducted soldiers did not die in the fighting at the compound in Karbala, but it was unclear where they were killed.
The attackers fled with the four and the computer and headed east toward Mahwil, in neighboring Babil province, about 25 miles away, the U.S. military officials said.
The U.S. accounts did not say where the soldiers were killed. Iraqi officials said the four were captured alive and shot just before the vehicles were abandoned.
Iraqi officials said the U.S. military found the four U.S. soldiers in the Suburbans near Bu-Alwan, a village near Mahawil.
The U.S. officials, who had seen incident reports of the assault, said the documents indicated two of the soldiers were found in one of the Suburbans at one location and two others in a second Suburban elsewhere. The exact locations were not specified, they said.
Both sides agreed that _ when found _ three soldiers were dead and one was wounded and died as U.S. troops rushed the service member away for treatment.
Three days afterward, the U.S. military in Baghdad announced the arrest of four suspects in the attack and said they had been detained on a tip from a Karbala resident. No further information was released about the suspects.
0
-
We've heard about England, Tilden, Abu Ghraib. Why does the military keep doing this sort of thing unless they have something to hide? It can't be politics since the military is non-political. Right? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by woodshermit
We've heard about England, Tilden, Abu Ghraib. Why does the military keep doing this sort of thing unless they have something to hide? It can't be politics since the military is non-political. Right?
The military ceased being non political no later than the removal of Mac Arthur as Commander of the forces in the Korean War.. Probably long before, remember when they attacked the WW1 Veterans in the early '30s. I think Mac Arthur may have been the Commander there.0 -
It's bush's fault. 0 -
MacArthur was the commander. 0 -
This is a disquieting report. The insurgents had to pass guard positions manned by Iraqi Army troops. They were let right on through.
Either the Iraqis are inept, or else they were in collaboration with the insurgents.
The insurgents went to a lot of trouble to acquire American uniforms and the SUVs that Americans normally use. They spoke English, and the leader was allegedly blond. This tells of an increasing sophistication in the insurgent's tactics.
They attacked a meeting of U.S. and Iraqis who were planning security for an upcoming religious holiday. The irony of this is not lost on the Iraqi people, and is not lost on the insurgents.
The entire raid sounds like something that Francis Marion "The Swamp Fox" would have pulled off during the Revolution.
Immediately after the attack, the Pentagon announced that no soldiers had been kidnapped, and "all U.S. troops were accounted for."
This is now shown to be a lie.
The Pentagon is good at it, they lied routinely during Vietnam.0 -
Is there any chance that perhaps somebody, trying to figure out what the heck happened in a very confusing situation, made an honest mistake. Ever hear of the fog of war? Yeah, they got the details wrong, but a day or two later after they had time to figure everything out they got the details right.
And think about this: what if those Iraqi guards hadn't chased after the vehicles and forced the insurgents to kill the troops and flee? Can you imagine what would have been done to them? I've got to say that a bullet in the head would be vastly preferable to whatever sickness those guys had planned.
Good God, why don't we bring those guys home now? Here it is four years after the invasion and we've finally decided that it's OK to shoot the Iranians who've been supplying training and weapons. It took FOUR f
years for somebody to decide that it's OK to shoot them. Before now, it was SOP to hold them for three or four days and release them. Oh, hey, you've got caught bringing portable SAMs into the country? Well, it's going to be three days in jail and a tongue lashing for you! This has got to be the most idiotically run war our country has ever fought.0 -
Not likely to be an honest mistake. It's happened too many times. There is no genuine accountability. The grunts (and it seems everyone is a grunt in this war) pay the ultimate price and their families will suffer a lifetime of heartache. 0 -
"Is there any chance that perhaps somebody, trying to figure out what the heck happened in a very confusing situation, made an honest mistake. Ever hear of the fog of war? Yeah, they got the details wrong, but a day or two later after they had time to figure everything out they got the details right."
Immediately after the attack the Pentagon said that no soldiers had been kidnapped. Now we know that they were kidnapped, and found some thirty miles away. It looks like a lie to me.
It is naive to give the Pentagon the benefit of the doubt in these cases. They deliberately lied about the Pat Tillman death. They even lied to his own family, and they held to their lies for weeks, until so much of the truth finally came out that they were forced to admit that it was "friendly fire" that killed Tillman.
That skinny little girl from West Virginia was characterized by the Pentagon as a hero, was given medals for valor, when the truth was she did nothing more than get knocked out in a car wreck. She never even fired her weapon.
The Pentagon had many weeks to check out the story, there were many witnesses, but they stuck with their lie because they wanted a cute female hero in the newspapers.0 -
They capture our guys and execute them. We capture their guys and give them lawyers. What's wrong with this picture? 0 -
Eactly the problem over there......we have to fight by rules. If thier govt woud have caught then would they be court martialed? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Lowrider
They capture our guys and execute them. We capture their guys and give them lawyers. What's wrong with this picture?
Lowrider,
You know something? You wouldn't make a very good democrat![:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Lowrider
They capture our guys and execute them. We capture their guys and give them lawyers. What's wrong with this picture?
exactly0 -
quote:Originally posted by woodshermit
We've heard about England, Tilden, Abu Ghraib. Why does the military keep doing this sort of thing unless they have something to hide? It can't be politics since the military is non-political. Right?
HA. It's not supposed to be.
The military in this case is the right hand of a certian individual's ego.0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
The entire raid sounds like something that Francis Marion "The Swamp Fox" would have pulled off during the Revolution.
That's the worst thing about this whole affair, IMHO. Not only did we lose 4 soldiers, we lost them in a way that is sure to be a propaganda coup for the insurgancy.
When the insurgancy has a no-s**t spec ops team wrecking havoc inside "secure" zones we have a serious problem.0 -
quote:Originally posted by rcrxmike_2
Eactly the problem over there......we have to fight by rules. If thier govt woud have caught then would they be court martialed?
Rules are what makes us better than them. We didn't sacrafice our morals and rules when we fought the Nazis and the Japanese and lost far more men than in the current war. The Japanese would kill American wounded and execute American POWs, we would give captured Japanese good treatment as prisoners of war. Same with the Germans. That's what made us better than them, we did not sink to their level.
If you really want American troops to rape and pillage, then this war becomes nothing more than two barbarians fighting it out to see who can be more barbaric. Remember, WE started this war, not the Iraqis. Let's not compound that mistake by tossing out the UCMJ and any semblance of civility.0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
That's what made us better than them, we did not sink to their level.
I beg to differ. It was cold, imhuman cruelty that defeated the Germans and Japs. One only has to look at the great firebombing raids on Tokyo and Dresden to see that.
While captured Axis soldiers were usually treated well, their families in urban areas were being incinerated by the thousands
The surrender of Japan is directly connected to the (arguably) single greatest acts of inhumanity in the history of the world, the nuclear destruction of two cities.
Think about it.....for an instant, the ground temperature of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were equal to the surface of the sun. Incredible if you think about it.
It sure is nice to know we gave German POWs smokes if they wanted 'em....
Back to the main point....the only way we win this war is to get the point across that we care FAR more about U.S servicemen than the citizens of combatant nations. We don't try to limit "collatoral damage", we seek to increase it. They draw their strength from Allah, so we actively seek to destroy their faith in him.
It won't happen though......we might as well be pissing in the wind0 -
"the Japanese would kill American wounded and execute American POWs, we would give captured Japanese good treatment as prisoners of war."
Marines in the Pacific theatre routinely executed Japanese prisoners. I saw a two hour documentary on the Pacific War. They interviewed at least five Marines who said that they themselves had shot Japanese wounded.
After a battle Marines would patrol the battleground. Any Jap who moved, or groaned, was given a shot to the head.0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
Marines in the Pacific theatre routinely executed Japanese prisoners. I saw a two hour documentary on the Pacific War. They interviewed at least five Marines who said that they themselves had shot Japanese wounded.
After a battle Marines would patrol the battleground. Any Jap who moved, or groaned, was given a shot to the head.
Chesty Puller mentioned bayoneting wounded japs in his autobiography.0
Please sign in to leave a comment.
Comments
18 comments