Gun Rights Activists Fight City Of Manassas
Gun Rights Activists Fight City Of Manassas--CITY OF MANASSAS, Va. -- A group in Virginia had a run-in with police when they went to a pizza parlor in the City of Manassas with guns on their sides.
The incident happened Jan. 18 at Tony's New York Pizza. Seven members of a group called opencarry.org met at the restaurant for dinner and to talk about their support for gun rights. Each man was armed, and although they had permits to carry a concealed weapon, they displayed their guns openly on their hips.
Virginia law requires them to do that in a place that serves alcohol.
Co-owner Joe D'Agostino, who was working that night told NBC4 some officers walked in and said some customers had complained.
"The officers came in and they told us they had received a call saying there were these armed men," D'Agostino said. "I'm not exactly sure from whom. They told us at that point we were the business owners and it was our choice whether we wanted the men to stay or if we wanted them to leave."
More than 100 gun-rights supporters packed the Manassas City Council chambers Monday night. They complained that the Manassas City police harassed the seven Tony's Pizza diners.
Philip Van Cleave of the Virginia Citizens Defense League said, "And the problem we have here is, we have police who went up to a restaurant owner, knowing they had nothing on the people sitting there and coerced them into getting them to leave."
D'Agostino said he supports everyone's rights until it interferes with his right to run a business.
"Do you need a gun to come here to Tony's, I don't think so," he said.
An internal police investigation is under way, NBC4 reported. It includes text message type e-mails that the officers allegedly sent between themselves that night, referring to the gun owners in some very derogatory terms.http://www.nbc4.com/news/11122593/detail.html?rss=
The incident happened Jan. 18 at Tony's New York Pizza. Seven members of a group called opencarry.org met at the restaurant for dinner and to talk about their support for gun rights. Each man was armed, and although they had permits to carry a concealed weapon, they displayed their guns openly on their hips.
Virginia law requires them to do that in a place that serves alcohol.
Co-owner Joe D'Agostino, who was working that night told NBC4 some officers walked in and said some customers had complained.
"The officers came in and they told us they had received a call saying there were these armed men," D'Agostino said. "I'm not exactly sure from whom. They told us at that point we were the business owners and it was our choice whether we wanted the men to stay or if we wanted them to leave."
More than 100 gun-rights supporters packed the Manassas City Council chambers Monday night. They complained that the Manassas City police harassed the seven Tony's Pizza diners.
Philip Van Cleave of the Virginia Citizens Defense League said, "And the problem we have here is, we have police who went up to a restaurant owner, knowing they had nothing on the people sitting there and coerced them into getting them to leave."
D'Agostino said he supports everyone's rights until it interferes with his right to run a business.
"Do you need a gun to come here to Tony's, I don't think so," he said.
An internal police investigation is under way, NBC4 reported. It includes text message type e-mails that the officers allegedly sent between themselves that night, referring to the gun owners in some very derogatory terms.http://www.nbc4.com/news/11122593/detail.html?rss=
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I was at the protest last night. More than 100 showed up, the Manassas Mayor said it was the most to EVER show up to a City Council meeting for ANYTHING.
Here is the full story on what happened at the Pizza place, including the 911 call and the reports that were gotten through FOIA:
http://www.vcdl.org/Tonys/mcpd.html
And here is the report on last night from the head of VCDL:
It's 3:45 AM, I'm still wired, there could be 'type-os' in this
(sorry). I simply don't know what better sums it up than "!!WOW!!"
There were way over 100 VCDL members and supporters at the Manassas
City Council meeting tonight.
The Manassas City Council members were clearly shocked by the numbers.
The Mayor led off by saying that he could not remember ever seeing
such a large crowd for **anything** they had done before!
I brought 40 'Guns Save Lives' badges that were distributed in
minutes, leaving over half of the people without a badge. :-(
We not only filled up all the seating (100 seats - about 95% of them
VCDL members), we lined BOTH walls and ran out into the hall!
A good portion of the members were open carrying during the meeting.
No uniformed officers in sight (but there were some plain clothes
officers in the audience).
I led off, taking 10 minutes to describe the situation, describing
the problem with officers who would abuse their power to coerce the
restaurant owner to kick the 7 innocent gun owners out, and calling
for the SEVERE reprimand or FIRING of Officers Chad Hyland, Rickey
Clodfelter, and Tina Pannell. Hyland and Clodfelter for their total
disdain for law-abiding gun owners and coercing the restaurant owner
into kicking out the gun owners, and Pannell because as a SUPERVISOR
she should have known better and put a stop to the 'kicking out the
good guys' situation. I did say that a demotion would be acceptable
for her, but that she clearly was not an acceptable supervisor.
When I was finished, the Mayor read a letter from Chief Skinner,
saying, fairly enough, that he couldn't comment as there was an
active investigation into the matter.
I was followed by one speaker after the other for over 1.5 hours - each person getting three minutes!
The speakers were all superb, showing City Council, in no uncertain
terms, that none of us are 'assclowns.'
Also THREE of the 7 gun owners at Tony's that fateful night spoke.
The Mayor was very congenial and several speakers made a point of
thanking City Council for making the audience feel 'at home' (but
still asking Council to fix the problem at hand). We had speakers
come from over 200 miles away and a good share were Manassas
residents, too!
After the meeting, 30 of us headed over to a local IHOP for a meal.
Everyone was jubilant - as we all had felt the power and comradery in
the City Council Room that night. For many this was their first
experience going from a gun-rights supporter to a gun-rights
activist. Caution! I don't think there is anyway to go back,
either. ;-)
Member Matt Gottshalk was there making a professional quality video
which will be online in a day or two for those of you who would like
to see and hear key parts of the meeting. He will cut it down to 6
speakers - myself, Jim Snyder, Dennis O'Connor, and three of the
seven people at Tony's Pizza that fateful night in January. I will
send an alert when the video is ready to view.
Channel 4 (NBC) in NoVA already ran a story on the meeting at 11 PM.0 -
If those same 7 men would have walked into a restaurant in Anytown, Illinois like that, the authorities would have sent every available agency in the tri-county area to shut down city blocks, surround the place and most likely would have sent in a SWAT team.
They would have been lucky to come out alive so they could be thrown in prison. Afterwards, interviewees would have been hand picked by the media saying how frightened they were and how thankful they were for the police saving their lives. City council meetings would remain empty.
The story would remain on the news for a month while Blagojevich and Dailey would unite for another call to ban assault weapons and handguns.
Are we still talking about the same country here!? MY GOD this country is screwed up.0 -
Unless there is more to this than was in the above posts, I don't see much to complain about. Seven people went to a Pizza Place with "open carry" handguns (perfectly legal). Somebody didn't like it and called 911 (perfectly legal). Three police officer responded (perfectly legal and required). The owner asked them to leave (perfectly legal). They left (perfectly legal).
Derogatory remarks about the pistol packing people was in bad taste, but fortunately not illegal. If derogatory remarks about another person were grounds for being fired, half the members of this forum would starve.
It makes me happy that we have large numbers of people willing to fight for our RIGHT to carry firearms, but I would like to see us take on more meaningful fights.0 -
I would like to hear a update on this one, when things get settled. 0 -
As in many states, the camel is continually trying to get his nose under the tent . In Virginia the association is kicking that camel in the nose, making for one cautious camel.
I applaud the association for its' proactive stance on firearms issues
and belive it to be a model for other states in defending,in force,
against infringements of firearms rights both big and small.
The police involved were profane, insulting and wilfully ignored written proof, the "open carry" activists were acting lawfully in a place of public accommodation.
While I don't agree with Va's "open carry in bars" requirement of the law,it is nevertheless law and gun rights were being infringed.
This same organization has also held BATF's feet to the fire on gun show issues.
If more states had similar watchdog activist groups, there would be fewer arbitrary and capricious gun laws.0 -
V35, most of our Democrats are more "gun friendly" than New Jersey (and some other places) Republicans. [:D] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
Unless there is more to this than was in the above posts, I don't see much to complain about. Seven people went to a Pizza Place with "open carry" handguns (perfectly legal). Somebody didn't like it and called 911 (perfectly legal). Three police officer responded (perfectly legal and required). The owner asked them to leave (perfectly legal). They left (perfectly legal).
Derogatory remarks about the pistol packing people was in bad taste, but fortunately not illegal. If derogatory remarks about another person were grounds for being fired, half the members of this forum would starve.
It makes me happy that we have large numbers of people willing to fight for our RIGHT to carry firearms, but I would like to see us take on more meaningful fights.
James, I understand your position, but with the constant assault on the RIGHT to carry and the still developing public attitudes toward carry, it is important to adopt a ZERO tolerance stance for anything, even if merely inappropriate, that infringes on the right to carry.
As a peace officer myself, the appropriate response for them would have been to respond to the call, determine if any laws were violated, seen there were none and left, period.
From what I hear, they are not educated and/or not in favor of "regular folks" being able to pack iron. Tough s hit for them. A spanking and lesson learned for any with such attitudes is appropriate and proper.
I guarantee that they took an oath to support and defend the Constitution. That included gun rights. If they can't follow their oath, time for a new career.[;)]
The time for p ussy-footing around the issue is done. Be vocal, be loud, be consistent, be professional/respectful, but let no slight pass, period.0 -
When that video gets made let me know - I have a server I can host it on for a while to help wtih the bandwidth.
email is iwannausername at gmail dot com
Thanks0 -
quote:Originally posted by Gunners762
Gun Rights Activists Fight City Of Manassas--CITY OF MANASSAS, Va. -- A group in Virginia had a run-in with police when they went to a pizza parlor in the City of Manassas with guns on their sides.
The incident happened Jan. 18 at Tony's New York Pizza. Seven members of a group called opencarry.org met at the restaurant for dinner and to talk about their support for gun rights. Each man was armed, and although they had permits to carry a concealed weapon, they displayed their guns openly on their hips.
Virginia law requires them to do that in a place that serves alcohol.
Co-owner Joe D'Agostino, who was working that night told NBC4 some officers walked in and said some customers had complained.
"The officers came in and they told us they had received a call saying there were these armed men," D'Agostino said. "I'm not exactly sure from whom. They told us at that point we were the business owners and it was our choice whether we wanted the men to stay or if we wanted them to leave."
More than 100 gun-rights supporters packed the Manassas City Council chambers Monday night. They complained that the Manassas City police harassed the seven Tony's Pizza diners.
Philip Van Cleave of the Virginia Citizens Defense League said, "And the problem we have here is, we have police who went up to a restaurant owner, knowing they had nothing on the people sitting there and coerced them into getting them to leave."
D'Agostino said he supports everyone's rights until it interferes with his right to run a business.
"Do you need a gun to come here to Tony's, I don't think so," he said.
An internal police investigation is under way, NBC4 reported. It includes text message type e-mails that the officers allegedly sent between themselves that night, referring to the gun owners in some very derogatory terms.http://www.nbc4.com/news/11122593/detail.html?rss=
This is, in my humble opinion, what needs to happen all over this country to get the laws changed. This type of protest is what works folks![^] This is how you get the attention of the elected officials and the media positive attention.
It is my opinion that most of the anti-gun crowd are cowards and will not stand up to a direct confrontation of this sort. When done in a peacefull mannor it supports our position.
When its done as a gun battle it just plays into the hands of the anti-gun folks who can then say; "see, I told you those gun nuts were dangerous"0 -
I find myself conflicted on this issue...
I firmly believe in an armed citizenry, but I also firmly believe in property owners' rights.
Like it or not, these folks were scaring other customers. The property owners had every right to ask them to leave.
I do, however, appreaciate the discussion that has appearently resulted due to this incident. Only through informed discussion can we change the perceptions allow us to be so effectively demonized by the antis0 -
quote:Originally posted by sig232
This is, in my humble opinion, what needs to happen all over this country to get the laws changed. This type of protest is what works folks![^] This is how you get the attention of the elected officials and the media positive attention.
It is my opinion that most of the anti-gun crowd are cowards and will not stand up to a direct confrontation of this sort. When done in a peacefull mannor it supports our position.
When its done as a gun battle it just plays into the hands of the anti-gun folks who can then say; "see, I told you those gun nuts were dangerous"
sig, I think there might be a misunderstanding of what the deal is here. Nobody wants to change any laws. No laws were violated and nobody is accused of breaking any laws. What happened here was a citizen didn't know the law and called 911. At least one of the police officers who responded didn't know the law and there was a disagreement about the law. At least one police officer who responded did know the law, but the officer who didn't know the law couldn't see a graceful way to back down. The non-incident escalated way beyond what it should have. The man running the Pizza Place doesn't want confrontations in he place which can hurt business. I doubt if he was concerned with legalities. He just doesn't want to get a reputation of owning the place you don't want to take your family. I can't fault him for that.
What needs to happen here is instruct the police department in the law. We can't expect policemen to be lawyers, but all levels of law enforcement in Virginia should know "open Carry" is legal in Virginia.
It would have been better if it had happened similar to something I saw in Norfolk. I was in a shopping center in Norfolk when a woman came up to a policeman and told him she saw a man with a holstered gun in front of one of the stores. He told her if she saw the gun, it wasn't concealed. If it wasn't concealed, it was legal and none of his business. It didn't make the six o'clock news or the papers.0 -
The real issue here is that in Virginia gun owners, even with concealed carry permits are required to carry openly in establishments
that serve alcoholic beverages. This is a dumb statute in my opinion.
Personally, I take issue with open carry in public places but support
resistance to any infringements on gun rights.
Long ago in high school and college I learned that pressure groups and lobbyists get things done, not the voting public.
If we want to sit back and pick and choose which antigun measure
steps on our individual toes we will collectively lose ground to erosion of our rights because the Anti's are unrelenting like a wolf pack testing a heard of prey.
You don't fight activism with passivism.0 -
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
Unless there is more to this than was in the above posts, I don't see much to complain about. Seven people went to a Pizza Place with "open carry" handguns (perfectly legal). Somebody didn't like it and called 911 (perfectly legal). Three police officer responded (perfectly legal and required). The owner asked them to leave (perfectly legal). They left (perfectly legal).
Derogatory remarks about the pistol packing people was in bad taste, but fortunately not illegal. If derogatory remarks about another person were grounds for being fired, half the members of this forum would starve.
It makes me happy that we have large numbers of people willing to fight for our RIGHT to carry firearms, but I would like to see us take on more meaningful fights.
Nothing here is illegal however it shows a biased attitude on the part of the local LE. They have no busniess calling people names and no business putting pressure on the store owner to get him to do what they want him to do. 911 should have informed the caller who was "uncomfortable" that these guys were doing nothing illegal and his comfort level is irrelevant to the situation. 911 should have also told the officers that if they have a permit they are doing nothing wrong. They should have been left alone.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HighVolumeOfFire
I find myself conflicted on this issue...
I firmly believe in an armed citizenry, but I also firmly believe in property owners' rights.
Like it or not, these folks were scaring other customers. The property owners had every right to ask them to leave.
I do, however, appreaciate the discussion that has appearently resulted due to this incident. Only through informed discussion can we change the perceptions allow us to be so effectively demonized by the antis
Yes, the property owner has a right to ask them to remove their firearms but that did not happen until the police pressued him to do so. Everything that took place was due to another patron's comfort level and a bad attitude by police. This should not have had any police intervention.0 -
An aside but related incident about 6 or 7 years ago in Lovington, NM. New Mexico, at that time, did not have a concealed carry law. However, there is no law in that state preventing open carry. A man walked into an establishment carrying a revolver on his hip-- no alcohol served there --- the waitress called the law. The deputy who received the call quickly checked his "law guide" and responded to the scene. He explained to the waitress that the gentleman was breaking no law. At the time that a law was broken, she should feel free to call again. End of incident. I know that deputy. It really happened. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by HavegunJoe
Nothing here is illegal however it shows a biased attitude on the part of the local LE. They have no busniess calling people names and no business putting pressure on the store owner to get him to do what they want him to do. 911 should have informed the caller who was "uncomfortable" that these guys were doing nothing illegal and his comfort level is irrelevant to the situation. 911 should have also told the officers that if they have a permit they are doing nothing wrong. They should have been left alone.
I don't see how anybody can disagree with anything you have said here, HavegunJoe. In Virginia though, you don't need a permit to "open carry". Pretty much anybody who can legally own a gun can carry the gun openly, with a few exceptions (school and church come to mind). What v35 is talking about is the prohibition of "concealed carry" in any establishment which serves alcohol. He is correct that it is a stupid law, devoid of any logic, but it is the law. In Virginia, if you carry a concealed handgun, with the valid permit, and you take your wife out to dinner at a restaurant which serves alcohol or a pizza palace which serves beer, you can't carry concealed in that place even if you don't intend to consume alcohol. Your choices are leave your gun at home, leave it in your car or "open carry".0 -
Here is a good article giving police guidance on "man with a gun" calls:
http://policechiefmagazine.org/magazine/index.cfm?fuseaction=display_arch&article_id=757&issue_id=1220050 -
FWIW- Virginia resident here. Unless I take my lady to Mickey D's or Wendys (or Cracker Barrel) every restaurant out there has a liquor license- and I cannot legally carry concealed on their premises (even tho I no longer drink- diabetes) My solution- dark slacks, dark IWB holster, blued steel, black Hogue grips- and it does not stand out. Yes, dumb law- but my motto is "Don't leave home without it". 0 -
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
FWIW- Virginia resident here. Unless I take my lady to Mickey D's or Wendys (or Cracker Barrel) every restaurant out there has a liquor license- and I cannot legally carry concealed on their premises (even tho I no longer drink- diabetes) My solution- dark slacks, dark IWB holster, blued steel, black Hogue grips- and it does not stand out. Yes, dumb law- but my motto is "Don't leave home without it".
[;)] [:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
Unless there is more to this than was in the above posts, I don't see much to complain about. Seven people went to a Pizza Place with "open carry" handguns (perfectly legal). Somebody didn't like it and called 911 (perfectly legal). Three police officer responded (perfectly legal and required). The owner asked them to leave (perfectly legal). They left (perfectly legal).
Derogatory remarks about the pistol packing people was in bad taste, but fortunately not illegal. If derogatory remarks about another person were grounds for being fired, half the members of this forum would starve.
It makes me happy that we have large numbers of people willing to fight for our RIGHT to carry firearms, but I would like to see us take on more meaningful fights.
What you say is good logic and all, but I think the problem is in that the responding police may have "caused" the situation (restaurant owner, etc) that gave the police the right to ask the men wearing their firearms to leave. If that is the case, I would take the side of the gun toters because the police are supposed to respond to situations, not create/cause situations.0 -
quote:Originally posted by lt496
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
Unless there is more to this than was in the above posts, I don't see much to complain about. Seven people went to a Pizza Place with "open carry" handguns (perfectly legal). Somebody didn't like it and called 911 (perfectly legal). Three police officer responded (perfectly legal and required). The owner asked them to leave (perfectly legal). They left (perfectly legal).
Derogatory remarks about the pistol packing people was in bad taste, but fortunately not illegal. If derogatory remarks about another person were grounds for being fired, half the members of this forum would starve.
It makes me happy that we have large numbers of people willing to fight for our RIGHT to carry firearms, but I would like to see us take on more meaningful fights.
James, I understand your position, but with the constant assault on the RIGHT to carry and the still developing public attitudes toward carry, it is important to adopt a ZERO tolerance stance for anything, even if merely inappropriate, that infringes on the right to carry.
As a peace officer myself, the appropriate response for them would have been to respond to the call, determine if any laws were violated, seen there were none and left, period.
From what I hear, they are not educated and/or not in favor of "regular folks" being able to pack iron. Tough s hit for them. A spanking and lesson learned for any with such attitudes is appropriate and proper.
I guarantee that they took an oath to support and defend the Constitution. That included gun rights. If they can't follow their oath, time for a new career.[;)]
The time for p ussy-footing around the issue is done. Be vocal, be loud, be consistent, be professional/respectful, but let no slight pass, period.
In red above. Well said and thank you for your attitude. I feel that if lawful, peaceful armed citizens frighten and LEO's then that LEO needs to find another line of work possibily in the private sector.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
What you say is good logic and all, but I think the problem is in that the responding police may have "caused" the situation (restaurant owner, etc) that gave the police the right to ask the men wearing their firearms to leave. If that is the case, I would take the side of the gun toters because the police are supposed to respond to situations, not create/cause situations.
I guess I'm just not a very good communicator. Of course the whole thing was caused by the police, but that was (is) a problem of good order and discipline within the police department. What they did wasn't illegal, just piss poor police work. At least one of the officers probably should be in another career, but I don't see anything to justify dismissal. The police department needs to have serious training on the law and public relations. The police aren't supposed to take a nothing incident and escalate it into a full-blown problem based on their own misunderstanding of the law.0
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