More about Bloomberg, Coles?s Gun Shop and VCDL
Below is today's Gazette Virginian article about the Virginia Citizens Defense League (VCDL) boycott of Cole's Gun Shop in South Boston, Virginia.
I called Philip Van Cleave and explained why I think the VCDL is making a mistake backing a boycott of Cole's. He said he didn't think "boycott" was the correct description, and didn't remember using that word. I asked if I could say he was misquoted and he said he wanted to read the article before he could say. He called me back and said he couldn't say he was misquoted, but all the VCDL wants to do is make gun buyers aware that Cole is being monitored by Bloomberg.
I had two fairly long conversations with Mister Van Cleave, and told him I agree with almost all VCDL positions, but strongly disagree with him on this "boycott".
I told Mister Van Cleave I intended to post the Gazette Virginian article on GunBroker, and since his phone number was in the article, asked if he had any objection to my including his number with my post. He had no objection and gave me his eMail address in case anybody wants to contact him that way. His eMail is President@VCDL.org
http://www.gazettevirginian.com/news1.htm
VCDL Boycotting Cole's Gun Shop
By Jeff Humber
G-V Staff Writer
The 3,200-member Virginia Citizens Defense League, a pro-gun rights organization, is typically not in the business of boycotting gun dealers, but the organization is doing just that to Cole's Gun Shop in South Boston for settling a lawsuit filed by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg.
Boycotting the South Boston gun dealer was not initially what the organization wanted to do, VCDL President Philip Van Cleave said, but now the organization is considering sending a mailer to area residents and taking out a billboard informing the public that their gun purchase from Cole's will be under the review of Bloomberg's agents.
"Originally, I contacted Cole," Van Cleave said, noting he was referred to Cole's brother, who is an attorney. "His brother made it clear they were not interested in contact."
According to Van Cleave, the issue for the VCDL is the agreement the gun shop entered into with New York that will allow for oversight of the business by a "special master" to be chosen by Bloomberg for a three-year period.
"I normally don't care what a business does," Van Cleave said in a recent interview. "A gun store? What they do is their business.
"However, when that deal affects gun owners, that changes everything," Van Cleave added. "And this deal does affect gun owners. All the Bloomberg deals do.
Van Cleave said there is no easy way out of the New York lawsuit and that settling doesn't mean Cole's is in the clear.
According to the VCDL president, the special master can videotape all gun purchases at the store and request to review sales receipts and background checks.
Also, for any infractions the special master finds there is a fine and the three-year oversight period starts over, Van Cleave added.
"If the special master and Cole disagree over whether there was an infraction or not the special master is arbiter," Van Cleave said. The parties can also take each other to court if there is a disagreement, according to the contract.
Cole's gun shop owner Mark Cole said he did what he had to do given the situation.
"It's one of those things, you get sued and nobody's willing to help you," Cole said. "And we had to do what we had to do.
"I'm comfortable with what I had to do," Cole added. "I know I didn't do anything wrong, but I was forced into this position."
Van Cleave said he wants to see gun shops sued by Bloomberg stand up to the mayor.
"Bloomberg's just a two-bit politician," Van Cleave said in an earlier interview. "What he's doing is inexcusable, but he's still doing it.
"So we have to stand up and deal with it," he added
According to Van Cleave, the VCDL is concerned that the terms of the settlement violate gun owners' privacy rights.
"Your privacy is shot," Van Cleave charged. "Bloomberg will know who you are and what gun you bought.
Van Cleave said the focus of the boycott is not to harm Cole's, but rather to inform the public that Bloomberg's agents will have access to their personal information.
"People need to realize that this will not be a regular gun sale because Bloomberg has his hands in the middle of it," Van Cleave said. "That may in turn lead to problems for gun owners down the road."
To help the other six Virginia gun dealers who are fighting the lawsuit, the VCDL is holding drawings at the shops in an effort to boost awareness of the lawsuits and sales at the stores to help with legal fees and a fund has been started to help cover legal fees, Van Cleave said.
The New York lawsuits against gun shops along the East Coast, stem from private undercover agents paid by New York going into shops and conducting an alleged "straw sale" where one person indicates the firearm is for them and then another individual signs the paperwork to purchase the firearm.
As the lawsuits head to court, a number of legal issues are being contested, with one being jurisdiction over whether New York has the authority to brings lawsuits against gun dealers outside its borders for alleged violations of federal law.
Because the gun shops who settled with New York signed their own agreements, Van Cleave said, it is his understanding that even if the pending lawsuits are thrown out, the shops who settled will still be bound by their oversight agreement.
And with New York's authority to levy fines on the shops, Van Cleave said, that is a scary position to be in.
"He (Bloomberg) has you right where he wants you," Van Cleave said of the shops.
EDITOR'S NOTE: The Newington-based VCDL can be reached at 804-639-0600
I called Philip Van Cleave and explained why I think the VCDL is making a mistake backing a boycott of Cole's. He said he didn't think "boycott" was the correct description, and didn't remember using that word. I asked if I could say he was misquoted and he said he wanted to read the article before he could say. He called me back and said he couldn't say he was misquoted, but all the VCDL wants to do is make gun buyers aware that Cole is being monitored by Bloomberg.
I had two fairly long conversations with Mister Van Cleave, and told him I agree with almost all VCDL positions, but strongly disagree with him on this "boycott".
I told Mister Van Cleave I intended to post the Gazette Virginian article on GunBroker, and since his phone number was in the article, asked if he had any objection to my including his number with my post. He had no objection and gave me his eMail address in case anybody wants to contact him that way. His eMail is President@VCDL.org
http://www.gazettevirginian.com/news1.htm
VCDL Boycotting Cole's Gun Shop
By Jeff Humber
G-V Staff Writer
The 3,200-member Virginia Citizens Defense League, a pro-gun rights organization, is typically not in the business of boycotting gun dealers, but the organization is doing just that to Cole's Gun Shop in South Boston for settling a lawsuit filed by New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg.
Boycotting the South Boston gun dealer was not initially what the organization wanted to do, VCDL President Philip Van Cleave said, but now the organization is considering sending a mailer to area residents and taking out a billboard informing the public that their gun purchase from Cole's will be under the review of Bloomberg's agents.
"Originally, I contacted Cole," Van Cleave said, noting he was referred to Cole's brother, who is an attorney. "His brother made it clear they were not interested in contact."
According to Van Cleave, the issue for the VCDL is the agreement the gun shop entered into with New York that will allow for oversight of the business by a "special master" to be chosen by Bloomberg for a three-year period.
"I normally don't care what a business does," Van Cleave said in a recent interview. "A gun store? What they do is their business.
"However, when that deal affects gun owners, that changes everything," Van Cleave added. "And this deal does affect gun owners. All the Bloomberg deals do.
Van Cleave said there is no easy way out of the New York lawsuit and that settling doesn't mean Cole's is in the clear.
According to the VCDL president, the special master can videotape all gun purchases at the store and request to review sales receipts and background checks.
Also, for any infractions the special master finds there is a fine and the three-year oversight period starts over, Van Cleave added.
"If the special master and Cole disagree over whether there was an infraction or not the special master is arbiter," Van Cleave said. The parties can also take each other to court if there is a disagreement, according to the contract.
Cole's gun shop owner Mark Cole said he did what he had to do given the situation.
"It's one of those things, you get sued and nobody's willing to help you," Cole said. "And we had to do what we had to do.
"I'm comfortable with what I had to do," Cole added. "I know I didn't do anything wrong, but I was forced into this position."
Van Cleave said he wants to see gun shops sued by Bloomberg stand up to the mayor.
"Bloomberg's just a two-bit politician," Van Cleave said in an earlier interview. "What he's doing is inexcusable, but he's still doing it.
"So we have to stand up and deal with it," he added
According to Van Cleave, the VCDL is concerned that the terms of the settlement violate gun owners' privacy rights.
"Your privacy is shot," Van Cleave charged. "Bloomberg will know who you are and what gun you bought.
Van Cleave said the focus of the boycott is not to harm Cole's, but rather to inform the public that Bloomberg's agents will have access to their personal information.
"People need to realize that this will not be a regular gun sale because Bloomberg has his hands in the middle of it," Van Cleave said. "That may in turn lead to problems for gun owners down the road."
To help the other six Virginia gun dealers who are fighting the lawsuit, the VCDL is holding drawings at the shops in an effort to boost awareness of the lawsuits and sales at the stores to help with legal fees and a fund has been started to help cover legal fees, Van Cleave said.
The New York lawsuits against gun shops along the East Coast, stem from private undercover agents paid by New York going into shops and conducting an alleged "straw sale" where one person indicates the firearm is for them and then another individual signs the paperwork to purchase the firearm.
As the lawsuits head to court, a number of legal issues are being contested, with one being jurisdiction over whether New York has the authority to brings lawsuits against gun dealers outside its borders for alleged violations of federal law.
Because the gun shops who settled with New York signed their own agreements, Van Cleave said, it is his understanding that even if the pending lawsuits are thrown out, the shops who settled will still be bound by their oversight agreement.
And with New York's authority to levy fines on the shops, Van Cleave said, that is a scary position to be in.
"He (Bloomberg) has you right where he wants you," Van Cleave said of the shops.
EDITOR'S NOTE: The Newington-based VCDL can be reached at 804-639-0600
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Bloomberg is an a**! 0 -
Why would any dealer subject themselves to oversight from an out of state 'authority' AND agree to such punitive restrictions? Yes, Bloomberger is an A** and what he did was felonious. Coles may have, through their actions, been put in a perdiciment and if so, they probably should be boycott. 0 -
They already do ... the batfe. I can't imagine any dealer would want to do business for 3 years with an ATF agent in the store every moment of every day, no matter how legit they are ....
quote:Originally posted by jbc23060
Why would any dealer subject themselves to oversight from an out of state 'authority' AND agree to such punitive restrictions? *snip*0 -
quote:Originally posted by jbc23060
Why would any dealer subject themselves to oversight from an out of state 'authority' AND agree to such punitive restrictions? Yes, Bloomberger is an A** and what he did was felonious. Coles may have, through their actions, been put in a perdiciment and if so, they probably should be boycott.
I don't know how familiar you are with the scams Bloomberg is pulling, or how the legal system works in the United States, so I'll try to give you a little background.
Bloomberg hired a couple of stooges to go to various gun shops in various places to try to scam dealers into doing a "straw" sale. The real beauty of Bloomberg's scam is it didn't matter whether the dealer did anything wrong or illegal or not. Bloomberg wins either way.
In Cole's case nothing illegal or unethical was done. However, it would have cost Mark Cole his business and bankrupt him to defend himself in court. It cost Cole thousands of dollars just to get to see the tape of the sale. Even the edited version of the tape which was on the internet didn't show anything illegal, and it was edited to show Cole's Gun Shop in the worst possible light.
Mark Cole asked the NRA for assistance in fighting Bloomberg in court. The NRA said they would look into it. Best I can figure is they are still looking into it. The most recent victims of Bloomberg are banding together to fight the legal fight. Since Mark was first in line there was nobody for him to band together with. His choices were to sign the agreement or lock the doors and sell the building. He elected to continue to feed his family. I can't fault him for that.
I plan to be standing tall at Cole's Gun Shop early in the morning to buy something, if it's nothing more than a box of ammunition.0 -
If one of us is honestly caught in a trap, we should not turn on that trapped person. If possible we should try to help that person. And always help each other, as we already have more than enough enemies. We need to be friends to each other. 0 -
That's what I was trying to explain to Mister Van Cleave. We are fighting Mister Bloomberg's fight for him when we turn on each other, form up our circular firing squad and open fire on the man in the middle because we are "more right" than he is. And Mister Bloomberg doesn't even have to pay us.
If I were faced with the unrighteous choice of agreeing to something I knew was untrue, or being bankrupt with no way of making a living in the future, I'd like to think I'd have the balls to tell Bloomberg to stick his organization and dollars up his butt, but I'm not at all sure I would.0 -
Integrity = doing the right thing for the right reason, no matter the cost, or how difficult.
Is the VCDL demonstrating integrity?
Did Cole's demonstrate integrity?
Seems pretty clear to me. It is what it is.0 -
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Integrity = doing the right thing for the right reason, no matter the cost, or how difficult.
Is the VCDL demonstrating integrity?
Did Cole's demonstrate integrity?
Seems pretty clear to me. It is what it is.
Seems pretty clear cut to me too.
Is the VCDL demonstrating integrity? In a word, NO!
Where was the VCDL when Cole was seeking help to fight Bloomberg? It seems pretty easy to come into the fight after it's over and say the loser shouldn't have salvaged what was salvageable. The VCDL is putting up a pretty good fight for the current group of scam victims, but that is little compensation for the first man in line who could get no help. No, I don't call that integrity.
Did Cole's demonstrate integrity?
What Cole did was neither a demonstration of integrity nor a lack of it. He spent more thousands than most of us would have in a feeble attempt to go up against the budget of New York City and the Honorable Mister Michael Bloomberg. When he was faced with staying in business with Bloomberg over his shoulder and in his pants or going out of business, he elected to stay in business. Lack of integrity? I wouldn't say so.0 -
I am by no means throwing Mr. Cole under the bus. I don't know any details about or evidence, in his particular case. As I understand it, most of these dealers were targeted at shows, where there is much commotion, large crowds and usually several people working in a booth. It would be easier for a dealer to make a mistake under those conditions, than in their own shop. The entire process was illegal, as fas as I am concerned, since those 'agents' without the knowledge and approval of BATF, were attempting to make illegal purchases. In my thinking, those 'agents' should be prosecuted as should Bloomberg. 0 -
I got something for Bloomberg to monitor...
I have two words for his dishonor, the mayor. One is a verb and the other is a pronoun.
When NYC gets an enema they stick the hose in Bloomberg.
Have I made my feelings clear?0 -
It is easy for me to be a critic when I was not in the middle of the battle. But, that said I think I would have found a way to declare bankruptcy and shut the place down and open a new store in the same location with a new corporation name the next week. Bloomberg would have been left out in the cold.
The legal bills would have pushed Coles into bankruptcy so he had the right to pursue that action. Cost would have been a heck of a lot less than the trial with Bloomberg.
Maybe Mr. Cole was not incorporated as an LLC to protect him from personal liability, I don't know, but other dealers best look into their structure to make sure they have limited personal liability in the event Bloomberg comes after them.
I am surprised there is not some interstate law that would protect the out of state gun dealers.
It is amazing that cities will tolerate Mayors tapping into legal resources within the city for their personal battles. The cost of the trials to NYC has to be major bucks. New Yorkers should sue Bloomberg for wasteing their tax dollars.0 -
It's unfortunate that the Governor of Virginia didn't tell the mayor of NYC to go screw himself. This appears to be Virginia matter and it would be in the states interest to MYC within New York borders.
Sounds to me that this is a trial balloon that goes beyond firearm sales. For the mayor to flex such muscles can be very intimidating to other states if this is allowed to continue.0 -
I went by Cole's this morning. His parking lot was full, so I parked over on the grass and went in. Mark said it appears all of his regular customers are supporting him. I just bought a box of .38 shot shells and told him I'd like to buy a gun, just to show support, but I expect he'd rather sell to somebody who could pay for it.
Just for the record, because it doesn't make a big difference, Mark said he was misquoted in the article. The article says "I'm comfortable with what I had to do," Cole added. "I know I didn't do anything wrong, but I was forced into this position."
Mark told me he said "I'm NOT comfortable with what I had to do, but I was backed into a corner."
I was considering joining the VCDL before this came up, and I still might join them one day. For the most part the VCDL appears to be an excellent organization. I just think they are making a big mistake on this one.0 -
I think that extortion and blackmail. I still am amazed that the local Attorney General for the state of VA is allowing that to happen and is not protecting Mr.Cole.
The NRA is warning other dealers in PA and other states to watch out for a continued attempts by Mayor Bloomberg. So apparantly this is a legal game that he is playing, othewise the NRA would be pointing defendents to a way to defend themselves in the courts.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sig232
I think that extortion and blackmail. I still am amazed that the local Attorney General for the state of VA is allowing that to happen and is not protecting Mr.Cole.
The NRA is warning other dealers in PA and other states to watch out for a continued attempts by Mayor Bloomberg. So apparantly this is a legal game that he is playing, othewise the NRA would be pointing defendents to a way to defend themselves in the courts.
Unfortunately the NRA has been no help. None, nada, zero, zip.
The NRA was the first organization Mark contacted for help. Mark said he thought since the case was a precedent, and he has been an NRA Life Member for many years as well as a reputable gun dealer, the NRA would be right on top of it. The NRA did tell him a few things they thought he should do, each of them costing hundreds of thousands of dollars. He asked if they will assist with legal help, or help pay for legal expenses. The answer was no.
After Mark mentioned to several people he could get no help from the NRA, he got a cease and desist phone call from the NRA telling him he was making the NRA look bad and to knock it off.
There are several things about the Bloomberg scams which aren't legal. Not the least of which was when the Federal Judge turned over BATFE records to Bloomberg in violation of the law to get the scam started. There is no recourse against a Federal Judge other than asking a higher court to overturn him. The judge broke the law, but judges get to do that.
No, this is not a legal game he is playing. I think there is a basic misunderstanding of Bloomberg's strategy. It is what is know in legal circles as a frivolous lawsuit. The way it works is Bloomberg sues a gun dealer (in this case for something the dealer didn't even do) knowing he will eventually lose the case. He knows he will win the initial round because the judge is in on the scam. This drains all the money the dealer has or can raise. If the dealer can manage an appeal, Bloomberg loses the second round, but at this point the dealer is bankrupt and deep in debt. OUT OF BUSINESS. The gun dealer wins, but is destroyed in the process.
Pretty good plan when you think about it.0
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