Where were the police?
Just as in Columbine, the shooter was not taken out by cops.
Where were the police?
I heard an interview with a girl whose classroom had gotten shot up. She was injured. The gunman left and was shooting up another classroom. She looked outside and saw a police officer laying on the ground [I suppose he was taking cover to make sure he didn't get hurt.]
The girl said that she wanted to yell out to the officer to come save her, but she was afraid the shooter would hear her and come back. Sure enough, he did come back but two male students blocked the door with their shoes, and he couldn't get back in.
The shooter had chained at least one of the entry doors closed. I have attended three colleges, and in all three cases the main entry doors were of glass. If the officer encountered a chained glass door, why didn't he just shoot out the glass?
I haven't seen a timeline, but he shot up 4 classrooms, and murdered a few kids on a stairway. It had to take him ten or fifteen minutes to do his work. Some of the classrooms he returned to twice. Every kid in that school has a cell phone. The 911 phone had to be ringing off the hook. There had to be time for police to respond to that classroom building.
Where were the police?
I heard an interview with a girl whose classroom had gotten shot up. She was injured. The gunman left and was shooting up another classroom. She looked outside and saw a police officer laying on the ground [I suppose he was taking cover to make sure he didn't get hurt.]
The girl said that she wanted to yell out to the officer to come save her, but she was afraid the shooter would hear her and come back. Sure enough, he did come back but two male students blocked the door with their shoes, and he couldn't get back in.
The shooter had chained at least one of the entry doors closed. I have attended three colleges, and in all three cases the main entry doors were of glass. If the officer encountered a chained glass door, why didn't he just shoot out the glass?
I haven't seen a timeline, but he shot up 4 classrooms, and murdered a few kids on a stairway. It had to take him ten or fifteen minutes to do his work. Some of the classrooms he returned to twice. Every kid in that school has a cell phone. The 911 phone had to be ringing off the hook. There had to be time for police to respond to that classroom building.
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Self preservation is a powerfull thing 0 -
There was a video shot by a student with a cell phone and in the video you could hear several shots being fired as the police inched their way across the yard towards the building or hiding behind a tree..
I thought to myself why are they moving so slow.0 -
it is not instinct to run towards gun fire, and to assume there is only one shooter with no booby traps could be costly, and after shooting competition with hundreds of police officers who actually think they are good enough to compete, and watching several department qualify at my range i can understand why they would not approach the scene because most of them cannot shoot Worth a darn
i wish some departments would get their head out of their azzes, and open up to some real master class shooters, it may save their lives, but i guess pride is more important0 -
This is not a situation that police are trained to handle, in most cases and they rarely ever in their careers face a gunfight similar to this. This is better handled by a SWAT team, if the city has one available, and it takes time to bring them into action.
Large cities have the assets and are more prepared to deal with this type of scenario.
I contend that there needs to be a few trained individuals on campus that can react to protect students if the universities refuse to allow concealed carry holders to protect themselves.0 -
quote:Posted - 04/21/2007 : 10:40:08 AM
There was a video shot by a student with a cell phone and in the video you could hear several shots being fired as the police inched their way across the yard towards the building or hiding behind a tree..
I thought to myself why are they moving so slow.
My thoughts also, and I hate being critical of other LEO's when I wasn't even there or know the circumstances. It didn't look good standing around outside while people were being shot inside. Why didn't they make entry? Don't know.0 -
quote:Originally posted by sig232
This is not a situation that police are trained to handle, in most cases and they rarely ever in their careers face a gunfight similar to this. This is better handled by a SWAT team, if the city has one available, and it takes time to bring them into action.
Large cities have the assets and are more prepared to deal with this type of scenario.
I contend that there needs to be a few trained individuals on campus that can react to protect students if the universities refuse to allow concealed carry holders to protect themselves.
i know guys on swat teams, they cannot shoot worth a darn ether, one well trained master class shooter could take out most swat teams in seconds
watch this, two shots each target, with each a kill, and count the reloads
http://youtube.com/watch?v=HgRrWM4szz00 -
I think it has to do with the way they are trained to respond to certain situations. At VT like most have said police slowly moved to the shooting. A couple of years ago at the high school I graduated from, had a shooting, student went into a classroom and fired a gun and blocked the door. The police department rushed into the school not waiting for backup and not knowing where the shooter was, I forgot what they called it. The chief of police said it was their rapid response to Columbine. They knew if they waited like Columbine the more victims they could potentially have. Plus receive lots of criticism. 0 -
there were two dead 2 hours before he started later (poice all over the place) .the police were aware and they were hiding behind trees while he shot up another 50. instinct = go in and get the shooter not wait to see whats going on inside. if someone did go in he was late 0 -
I for one, eagerly await the details on the police response. Any agency that stays current with training, has implemented "active shooter" training in the department.
Active shooter training, simplified, is that when a situation, such as V.T., occurs and it is apparent that people are being shot inside, whatever officers are there quickly gather and go in, period.
No more waiting for SWAT, or for an "Incident Command" to be set up, or for a certain number of back-up officers. You go with what you have and stop the threat.
Not sure what happened here, or the time-frame from start to finish.0 -
"I for one, eagerly await the details on the police response. Any agency that stays current with training, has implemented "active shooter" training in the department.
Active shooter training, simplified, is that when a situation, such as V.T., occurs and it is apparent that people are being shot inside, whatever officers are there quickly gather and go in, period.
No more waiting for SWAT, or for an "Incident Command" to be set up, or for a certain number of back-up officers. You go with what you have and stop the threat."
Glad to hear this, It496.
There was a school shooting up in Canada, maybe a year ago. The Canadian police responded in just this fashion. The shooter had killed several and wounded several. Canadian cops did not "Wait for the SWAT team" but the first couple of cops immediately entered the building, and headed to the sound of the firing. The shooter turned out to be a chicken crap punk, and when he saw someone coming at him with a gun, he hid behind a Coke machine and in a minute the cops shot him down. End of story. This rapid police response saved many lives.
It sounds to me like the cops at VT were pulling a Columbine "Form a perimeter and Wait For The SWAT Team."
I want to see a time line but it HAD to take that punk ten minutes to do his work, could have been 15 or 20 minutes. We know that at least one cop was taking cover on the lawn outside, rather than entering the building and going to the sound of the firing.0 -
I read a news article back sometime last year about a guy that didn't help a cop that was trying to make an arrest on a bad guy. When the cop called for help the citizen was afraid to help and didn't. For not doing this he was cuffed and taken to jail. Now here we have a building full of people calling for help and what do the cops do? They huddle outside behind trees. Sounds like double standards to me.
Smitty0 -
Used to be, all cops had prior military service and this made them better cops as they were used to gunfire. Since the trend now is kinda the opposite with emphasis on degrees and all that horseshiite, the pucker factor has increased.
Personally, I don't trust non-military cops to be heroic in a real emergency.0 -
Allen ask..
"If the officer encountered a chained glass door, why didn't he just shoot out the glass?"
I am still trying to figure out how four or five men with nothing more than a box cutter can hi-jack a plane carrying 90 or 100 people on board. Then fly it into the World Trade Center.
The only reason that I can figure out why those hi-jackers never got the their guts stomped out is maybe the Seat Belt sign was on.0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
it is not instinct to run towards gun fire, and to assume there is only one shooter with no booby traps could be costly, and after shooting competition with hundreds of police officers who actually think they are good enough to compete, and watching several department qualify at my range i can understand why they would not approach the scene because most of them cannot shoot Worth a darn
Police are babysitters not soldiers, When the real danger arrives it may take a 100 mile roadmarch to "run to the gun fire", I don't forsee many of them making the trip. The ones i've observed are pretty good with drunk and angry women though.0 -
Actually when the video from the cell phone was taken that you heard the shooting going on, police had entered the building at that time and were on the second floor when the gunman took his life. The chain was cut with bolt cutters which was in the back of a State Cruiser. I do know this for sure. Its easy for us all to look at this and see where the way it was handled could have been improved. But dont we always look back and see where we could have done nothing better. As for LEO's being such terrible shots, I would have to disagree. Most of the guys here including myself grew up shooting and dont do to bad. Plus the State requires us to qualify and pass day night shooting requirements implemented by the State. Im also a Range Instructor and if you pass my class your no slouch. 0 -
quote:Allen ask..
"If the officer encountered a chained glass door, why didn't he just shoot out the glass?"
i am surprised this one has slide by this long, umm! lets see, now why wouldn't i shoot through a glass door with people hiding under desk on the other side?
this has to be a question asked by a person completely uneducated about firearms0 -
Obviously many on this forum, even those who claim to be LEOS are not well informed. The active shooter training came about after the Columbine shooting. Prior to this, standard training was to wait for help, setup a perimeter, keep other innocents out of harms way, and keep the bad guy from escaping. After Columbine, it became clear that that was not good enough. These days the bad guy may have no intention of getting away, so we go get him.
You can't always wait for SWAT to show up, get into their special gear, etc. But you don't go in alone either, that can just make things worse. You need to go in with enough firepower to take the guy out even if he takes some of you. The minimum is four officers, shotgun in the lead. You no longer clear rooms as you go, as per prior training, but go directly to the sound of shooting. If there are victims lying on the floor, you step over them and keep going. The second squad will remove them.
Don't knock the officer laying on the ground. He may have been waiting for others to arrive and from the prone position he had the best chance of taking out a shooter at distance if a target was presented. Being in a real gunfight is a whole world different than playing games at the range.0 -
quote:Originally posted by LesWVa
Allen ask..
"If the officer encountered a chained glass door, why didn't he just shoot out the glass?"
I am still trying to figure out how four or five men with nothing more than a box cutter can hi-jack a plane carrying 90 or 100 people on board. Then fly it into the World Trade Center.
The only reason that I can figure out why those hi-jackers never got the their guts stomped out is maybe the Seat Belt sign was on.
The 9/11 hijackers also told the passengers that they had bombs. And you should remember that prior to 9/11, no one had flew planes into buildings before. Most hijackings were resolved without the passengers being killed, so that's what most people on board were probably thinking. Now we know better, but those passengers didn't have the hindsight that we have.0 -
it's easy to say you would have attacked the gunman cause you werent there watching people get blown away infront of you. It's easy to say you would have rushed in if you were a police officer because you were not there.
I don't think anybody should be second guessing anybody on the scene anymore than they should be trying to blame the university, the police, the guns etc.
A nut case took the initiative and did this all by himself. his strength was the fact that he knew what he wanted to do and he was obviously ready to take his own life to do it.
There is nothing that can be done now to prevent what happened so why try to place the blame anywhere but on the nutcase that actually did it.0 -
quote:Where were the police?
Eating doughnuts and drinking coffee down at Dunkin Donuts.0 -
quote:Originally posted by glabray
Obviously many on this forum, even those who claim to be LEOS are not well informed. The active shooter training came about after the Columbine shooting. Prior to this, standard training was to wait for help, setup a perimeter, keep other innocents out of harms way, and keep the bad guy from escaping. After Columbine, it became clear that that was not good enough. These days the bad guy may have no intention of getting away, so we go get him.
You can't always wait for SWAT to show up, get into their special gear, etc. But you don't go in alone either, that can just make things worse. You need to go in with enough firepower to take the guy out even if he takes some of you. The minimum is four officers, shotgun in the lead. You no longer clear rooms as you go, as per prior training, but go directly to the sound of shooting. If there are victims lying on the floor, you step over them and keep going. The second squad will remove them.
Don't knock the officer laying on the ground. He may have been waiting for others to arrive and from the prone position he had the best chance of taking out a shooter at distance if a target was presented. Being in a real gunfight is a whole world different than playing games at the range.
+1
Here is an example of active shooter training available to officers. There are many out there, this is just an example of one.
http://www.alerrt.com/0 -
quote:Originally posted by 1911a1fan
quote:Allen ask..
"If the officer encountered a chained glass door, why didn't he just shoot out the glass?"
i am surprised this one has slide by this long, umm! lets see, now why wouldn't i shoot through a glass door with people hiding under desk on the other side?
this has to be a question asked by a person completely uneducated about firearms
Have you ever been in a college building? In every one I have been in and that has been many, the glass doors are the entrance doors, not the room doors. So the cops should have been able to shoot the glass entrance doors without hitting anyone. The room doors are wooden doors with a glass pane along the door knob side to look in. The reports said he was shooting through these glass panes so he could reach in and unlock the door. This is what caused the elderly professor to stand his ground, he took hits coming in through the glass pane, so he could hold the door locked until the students could get out. If the doors had been solid wood without any glass, it would have been much better. Or better yet, steel security doors.0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan Originally posted by LesWVa
And you should remember that prior to 9/11, no one had flew planes into buildings before. Most hijackings were resolved without the passengers being killed, so that's what most people on board were probably thinking. Now we know better, but those passengers didn't have the hindsight that we have.
This is what I've been thinking the whole time I read through this. The knee jerk response is, "Why didn't the police do more?" It's anybody's guess what was going on in any given scene we see on tv.
It's very easy to criticize now that it's days later and we know all the details. They didn't know how many, how well trained they were, where he or they were at. I can see how that could be a nerve racking situation.
That being said, I would think adrenaline would take over. I think I'd be very anxious to get in there and end it. Behind an AR-15 with a good red dot scope, my confidence level would be very high. They had a small army on scene for backup.
But, having the chance of multiple shooters, you certainly don't want to bust into a school by yourself and run down the hall by yourself to be the hero. Because as soon as you do that, somebody could jump out of a room to shoot you in the back. I'm sure it takes a lot of people moving through, in order to secure a school.
You could say we've learned a lot from 9/11, on up to this event. Now you have to assume every attacker is suicidal. Now people need to be ready to step up. There's no time to think about situations. The further they progress, the worse off you're going to be.
One major thing I see to address now is how these agencies are prepared to deal with chained/barricaded doors when they arrive on the scene. You'd think they should almost assume that they're going to be now.
Even if they would have broken the glass, the door's still chained. Not real conducive to getting people in, in a hurry, through a narrow broken glass opening with gear.
We'll never know what exactly happened but maybe some lessons can be learned.0
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