Waco rising!
WACO, Texas - In the ashes of the Branch Davidian site where nearly 80 people died in a 1993 blaze after an armed standoff with federal agents, a new religious community is slowly taking shape.
Charles Pace, leader of The Branch, The Lord of Righteousness sect of the Branch Davidians, hopes to open a museum for tourists in addition to building a tabernacle and wellness center as part of his new church.
But the few remaining Branch Davidians who once lived at the compound oppose Pace and his plans, saying the museum won't be an accurate representation of the events of April 19, 1993, because he was not there and despised their leader David Koresh.
"He'll portray us as deceived and put us down and say David Koresh was the devil," said Clive Doyle, who survived the fire and lived at the site until leaving last year because of conflicts with Pace.
On Feb. 28, 1993, authorities tried to arrest Koresh for stockpiling guns and explosives. The ensuing shootout killed four U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents and six Davidians.
That began a 51-day standoff that ended with an inferno that survivors say was ignited by tear gas rounds fired into the buildings. The government claims the Davidians committed suicide by setting the fire and shooting themselves. A 10-month independent investigation concluded in 2000 that Koresh was solely to blame.
The raid, the siege and its fiery conclusion were seen by some as an unwarranted government intrusion into personal and religious freedoms. Exactly two years after the Texas tragedy, Timothy McVeigh detonated a bomb at the Oklahoma City federal building, killing 168 people in an act intended to avenge the Davidians' deaths.
Pace, 57, returned in 1994 to the Waco-area property - owned by the church, an offshoot of the Seventh-day Adventists.
"I just felt I needed to be here to represent the true church," he said.
Since then he and his family have lived on its 77 acres of sprawling pastures and ponds.
Pace believes Koresh misled his followers, but said they thought they were following God's will. Despite his differences with the sect, Pace blames the U.S. government for the Davidians' death.
Visitors still come to the site about 10 miles east of Waco. But there are no signs directing them there or markers commemorating its notorious place in history; only a few charred remnants of the compound remain, piled under some brush near a swimming pool. Near a small chapel built a few years later are plaques with names of the Davidians and ATF agents who died.
People sympathetic to the group planted a simple memorial of trees and placed under each one a granite stone inscribed with the names of the Branch Davidians who died in the 1993 standoff.
But Pace removed the stones, destroying Koresh's, and is contemplating tearing down the trees, saying they are an abomination, according to the Bible. Instead, he plans to build a wall from the stones, with a new stone bearing Koresh's real name, Vernon Howell.
In addition, Pace, foresees the establishment of "a spiritual community" on the property, with families living in separate houses or mobile homes, as opposed to the group living situation that existed under Koresh. They would attend church and seek treatment at a wellness center.
"I believe people are going to be coming here seeking truth, and they're going to find it and they're going to be healed, physically and spiritually," said Pace, a licensed massage therapist.
Ray Feight Sr., a contractor who lives at the site and attends its church, said the goal is to change the negative image.
"We want the David Koresh thing to be history; we want to go on," Feight said. "It's daunting - we don't have the finances or the means to do all this. It seems like when God calls people to do this, there's no way, but it's all about restoration and healing. The image of this scarred land needs to be healed."
Pace estimates that the project will take years - and several million dollars in donations - to complete, partly because the property lacks running water and a septic system.
Waco has long tried to distance itself from the tragic events.
Jim Vaughan, director of the Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce, said raising millions to develop such a memorial is unlikely without "a whole lot of meetings and input and conversations in the community."
"You have to ask, `What is the story that the community would want to tell?"' he asked.
Doyle, whose 18-year-old daughter died in the blaze, leads weekly services at his apartment for the handful of Davidians who still follow Koresh's teachings. Doyle said he wishes the site could have a larger memorial telling the victims' story, but he refuses to participate in Pace's project or to give him the Davidians' mementos that Doyle displayed in his own museum there a few years ago.
Sheila Martin, who left the compound during the standoff with three of her children but lost her husband and four other children in the fire, said she also opposes Pace's plans. She said he was not trying to honor the victims but call attention to himself.
"I don't think it's anything that God is pleased with," Martin said.
Charles Pace, leader of The Branch, The Lord of Righteousness sect of the Branch Davidians, hopes to open a museum for tourists in addition to building a tabernacle and wellness center as part of his new church.
But the few remaining Branch Davidians who once lived at the compound oppose Pace and his plans, saying the museum won't be an accurate representation of the events of April 19, 1993, because he was not there and despised their leader David Koresh.
"He'll portray us as deceived and put us down and say David Koresh was the devil," said Clive Doyle, who survived the fire and lived at the site until leaving last year because of conflicts with Pace.
On Feb. 28, 1993, authorities tried to arrest Koresh for stockpiling guns and explosives. The ensuing shootout killed four U.S. Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms agents and six Davidians.
That began a 51-day standoff that ended with an inferno that survivors say was ignited by tear gas rounds fired into the buildings. The government claims the Davidians committed suicide by setting the fire and shooting themselves. A 10-month independent investigation concluded in 2000 that Koresh was solely to blame.
The raid, the siege and its fiery conclusion were seen by some as an unwarranted government intrusion into personal and religious freedoms. Exactly two years after the Texas tragedy, Timothy McVeigh detonated a bomb at the Oklahoma City federal building, killing 168 people in an act intended to avenge the Davidians' deaths.
Pace, 57, returned in 1994 to the Waco-area property - owned by the church, an offshoot of the Seventh-day Adventists.
"I just felt I needed to be here to represent the true church," he said.
Since then he and his family have lived on its 77 acres of sprawling pastures and ponds.
Pace believes Koresh misled his followers, but said they thought they were following God's will. Despite his differences with the sect, Pace blames the U.S. government for the Davidians' death.
Visitors still come to the site about 10 miles east of Waco. But there are no signs directing them there or markers commemorating its notorious place in history; only a few charred remnants of the compound remain, piled under some brush near a swimming pool. Near a small chapel built a few years later are plaques with names of the Davidians and ATF agents who died.
People sympathetic to the group planted a simple memorial of trees and placed under each one a granite stone inscribed with the names of the Branch Davidians who died in the 1993 standoff.
But Pace removed the stones, destroying Koresh's, and is contemplating tearing down the trees, saying they are an abomination, according to the Bible. Instead, he plans to build a wall from the stones, with a new stone bearing Koresh's real name, Vernon Howell.
In addition, Pace, foresees the establishment of "a spiritual community" on the property, with families living in separate houses or mobile homes, as opposed to the group living situation that existed under Koresh. They would attend church and seek treatment at a wellness center.
"I believe people are going to be coming here seeking truth, and they're going to find it and they're going to be healed, physically and spiritually," said Pace, a licensed massage therapist.
Ray Feight Sr., a contractor who lives at the site and attends its church, said the goal is to change the negative image.
"We want the David Koresh thing to be history; we want to go on," Feight said. "It's daunting - we don't have the finances or the means to do all this. It seems like when God calls people to do this, there's no way, but it's all about restoration and healing. The image of this scarred land needs to be healed."
Pace estimates that the project will take years - and several million dollars in donations - to complete, partly because the property lacks running water and a septic system.
Waco has long tried to distance itself from the tragic events.
Jim Vaughan, director of the Greater Waco Chamber of Commerce, said raising millions to develop such a memorial is unlikely without "a whole lot of meetings and input and conversations in the community."
"You have to ask, `What is the story that the community would want to tell?"' he asked.
Doyle, whose 18-year-old daughter died in the blaze, leads weekly services at his apartment for the handful of Davidians who still follow Koresh's teachings. Doyle said he wishes the site could have a larger memorial telling the victims' story, but he refuses to participate in Pace's project or to give him the Davidians' mementos that Doyle displayed in his own museum there a few years ago.
Sheila Martin, who left the compound during the standoff with three of her children but lost her husband and four other children in the fire, said she also opposes Pace's plans. She said he was not trying to honor the victims but call attention to himself.
"I don't think it's anything that God is pleased with," Martin said.
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quote:"He'll portray us as deceived and put us down and say David Koresh was the devil," said Clive Doyle, who survived the fire and lived at the site until leaving last year because of conflicts with Pace.
I won't say that Koresh was the devil, but the rest of the statement is right-on.0 -
Pace estimates that the project will take years -
and several million dollars in donations
- to complete, partly because the property lacks running water and a septic system.
[:o)]..or auction off pieces of the burned buildings and/or memorial on eBay[:o)]0 -
Seems like Koresh was a smarter man....he didn't need millions to build a "fortress" as the US Govt called it along with the media.
...but was killed over a $200 tax.
I think people living in a commune is better than individualism.....but that's my American Indian blood talking. ....This consumerism govt wants everyone segregated to keep govt revenue up to support global control.
And we all see how far the American Indians, and the Waco thing panned out.......consumerism or DIE.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
Just another cretin using the bible for self-promotion. [}:)][V] He should consider spending his time working with battered women, the needy, or the homeless. [;)]
in some far distant country.0 -
"..A 10-month independent investigation concluded in 2000 that Koresh was solely to blame..."
Wonder just how "independent" this investigtion was, or what role
the gubment played..?..hmmm0 -
Freely admit there is a LOT I don't know. Have yet to see ONE unregistered full auto, or ONE anti-tank weapon, or ONE explsoive device that was possessed by the folks at the Branch. did i miss something? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
Freely admit there is a LOT I don't know. Have yet to see ONE unregistered full auto, or ONE anti-tank weapon, or ONE explsoive device that was possessed by the folks at the Branch. did i miss something?
They had modified a few semi-autos to fire fully-auto. The ATF got involved in the first place after the other residents in the area reported hearing fully-automatic weapons fire on the Branch Davidain property.
And it amazes me that people here on gunbroker to this day still insist that Koresh was not a pedophile, even though he made religious videos in which he is shown alongside his 12 and 13-year old "child brides" who claim that Koresh has fathered children by them. He was a sicko pedophile cult leader. The only innocent people who died at Waco were the children, the adults all got what they deserved for letting that sick f**k rape their children in the name of God. DNA tests performed on the bodies after the siege confirmed that Koresh did indeed father children with several of the underage girls, including the 14-year old sister of one of his "legal aged" wives.0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
They had modified a few semi-autos to fire fully-auto. The ATF got involved in the first place after the other residents in the area reported hearing fully-automatic weapons fire on the Branch Davidain property.
And it amazes me that people here on gunbroker to this day still insist that Koresh was not a pedophile, even though he made religious videos in which he is shown alongside his 12 and 13-year old "child brides" who claim that Koresh has fathered children by them. He was a sicko pedophile cult leader. The only innocent people who died at Waco were the children, the adults all got what they deserved for letting that sick f**k rape their children in the name of God. DNA tests performed on the bodies after the siege confirmed that Koresh did indeed father children with several of the underage girls, including the 14-year old sister of one of his "legal aged" wives.
What a jackass.0 -
How come ATF ain't burnin' down Catholic Churchs for it's preachers....reverends...whatever pokin little boys in the backside?
Ain't that use of an assault weapon??[:p]0 -
Nice shot at trying to misdirect the issue.
The American government killed dozens of American citizens, including women and children, because of the Davidians religious beliefs.
And if you don't think it could happen to you, because of your beliefs, you are gazing through a dense fog.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Nice shot at trying to misdirect the issue.
The American government killed dozens of American citizens, including women and children, because of the Davidians religious beliefs.
And if you don't think it could happen to you, because of your beliefs, you are gazing through a dense fog.
Doug
If your "religious" beliefs include procreating with as many 13-year old girls as you can get your hands on, then I would say that that the government has a reason to come after you. I'm sorry, but child rape is not a protected religious custom under the First Amendment. Would you let your 13-year old daughter become the child bride of someone like David Koresh? Why not? By your own admission, he wasn't doing anything wrong. I guess we should just respect his religious beliefs, even if that included having a harem of underage girls.
And if it really was the "evil" FBI versus the poor innocent religious group, why did the Branch Davidians not release all of the children to safety? They kept those kids as human shields, nothing more. And let's not forget that Koresh and the FBI brokered a deal for a peaceful surrender and Koresh BROKE it. He was nothing but another Jim Jones, when he knew that his little sick cult society was going to end, he decided that he was going to take as many people as he could down with him.0 -
Gee sounds like another cult! 0 -
Warriorsfan -
Your points are well taken. I have never seen or heard any independent - that is non-government or non-media - substantiation that those things were true. If they were, he deserved to die, and I would have happily pulled the trigger on him. The women and children did not deserve the death penalty for being mislead.
The black-suited, jump-booted feds could have captured him without the deaths of those innocents.
I am always willing to look at evidence that proves me incorrect, and always willing to revise my opinion, if it is.
Doug0 -
There was absolutely no reason for the raid. They could have taken Koresh when he was off the compound. They were just grandstanding for the photo ops & look what it cost. Stupid, stupid, stupid. 0 -
That is what my study of the incident has led me to believe, also.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
I'm sorry, but child rape is not a protected religious custom under the First Amendment. Would you let your 13-year old daughter become the child bride of someone like David Koresh? Why not? By your own
Actually,the parents of those girls were aware of what Koresh was doing.
The local officials investigated rape and child abuse allegations, and they concluded that charges were not warranted. We have this rule of law thing in this country, at leastt, we pretend we do. The law investigated, the law decided they could not bring a case against Koresh. The rule of law also leaves issues of child abuse for the local governments to investigate. The rule of law PROHIBITS THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT from getting involved with such issues. The rule of law went out the window, when the feds decided to invade the Davidians home, and claimed they did so because of child abuse allegations. Child abuse is none of the feds business.
By law, the federal government acted unlawfully-but that is OK, because the federal government knows that the masses are brainwashed, and will excuse or ignore the governments illegal activity-all that is required is for them to come up with a good reason, like uhhh child abuse, and the masses will not only excuse, but cheer the illegal activities of the federal government(see Warriors fans comment-typical of the brainwashed).0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
Freely admit there is a LOT I don't know. Have yet to see ONE unregistered full auto, or ONE anti-tank weapon, or ONE explsoive device that was possessed by the folks at the Branch. did i miss something?
They had modified a few semi-autos to fire fully-auto. The ATF got involved in the first place after the other residents in the area reported hearing fully-automatic weapons fire on the Branch Davidain property.
Wonder how much of that could've simply been bump firing.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Warriorsfan -
Your points are well taken. I have never seen or heard any independent - that is non-government or non-media - substantiation that those things were true. If they were, he deserved to die, and I would have happily pulled the trigger on him. The women and children did not deserve the death penalty for being mislead.
The black-suited, jump-booted feds could have captured him without the deaths of those innocents.
I am always willing to look at evidence that proves me incorrect, and always willing to revise my opinion, if it is.
Doug
Here's what I think, and this is just my personal opinion. Koresh has a Messiah complex, he though he WAS Jesus Christ. He proclaimed that he was "the Son of God, the Lamb who could open the Seven seals" (that is a direct quote). He also claimed that he was entitled to 140 wives based on his interpretation of the Song of Solomon in the Bible.
So in-keeping with his belief that he was Jesus Christ or at the very least, a Christ-like figure, he would have needed to "martyr" himself like Jesus did and in a similar fashion. He needed to die at the hands of the Romans, or in this case, the U.S. government. He wanted to become a martyr, and I think he chose this massive "suicide by cop" approach where he wanted himself and his followers to be killed by the government. He took deliberate steps to provoke the FBI and ATF. His followers killed four ATF agents during the initial raid. During the siege, Koresh made a deal with the FBI to surrender. When the FBI kept up their end of the bargain by releaseing one of his propaganda tapes to the media, Koresh reneged on the deal by claiming that "God told him to." He made no effort to peacefully end the situation, he was going to wait and wait and wait until the FBI were FORCED to come get him. He knew they wouldn't wait forever. He wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, in keeping with his Messiah complex, he wanted to become a martyr.0 -
I can single-pull the trigger of an AR, Mini, 742, 66, Hi-Power, and some other stuff, so fast, that if you aren't looking at me, you can't tell it is not full-auto fire.
And, there is at least one guy here on the forum that has seen me do it, on many occassions.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by warriorsfan
[
Here's what I think, and this is just my personal opinion. Koresh has a Messiah complex, he though he WAS Jesus Christ. He proclaimed that he was "the Son of God, the Lamb who could open the Seven seals" (that is a direct quote). He also claimed that he was entitled to 140 wives based on his interpretation of the Song of Solomon in the Bible.
So in-keeping with his belief that he was Jesus Christ or at the very least, a Christ-like figure, he would have needed to "martyr" himself like Jesus did and in a similar fashion. He needed to die at the hands of the Romans, or in this case, the U.S. government. He wanted to become a martyr, and I think he chose this massive "suicide by cop" approach where he wanted himself and his followers to be killed by the government. He took deliberate steps to provoke the FBI and ATF. His followers killed four ATF agents during the initial raid. During the siege, Koresh made a deal with the FBI to surrender. When the FBI kept up their end of the bargain by releaseing one of his propaganda tapes to the media, Koresh reneged on the deal by claiming that "God told him to." He made no effort to peacefully end the situation, he was going to wait and wait and wait until the FBI were FORCED to come get him. He knew they wouldn't wait forever. He wanted to go out in a blaze of glory, in keeping with his Messiah complex, he wanted to become a martyr.
Brainwashed. You should make propaganda films for the government.
Ignore evidence, spin a good yarn.0 -
I don't really think he has been brainwashed - just that he listened/watched the media, without looking further.
If you want to know what really happened, that info is available at your Public Library - I sure wouldn't recommend the internet as a source.
Doug0 -
Wow I am amazed to see this arugument... If your information comes from the "media" you are brainwashed.... if your information comes from "bubba the local bar drunk" then it is true....
Let me ask who has real information? who was there? who has any proof of anything?
Now come on lets see it... to many people on here spitting out facts that are just more "propaganda" for both points of veiw.
I know people died, but you must ask why.... in 51 days why did they keep the kids inside? I have heard they were used as sheilds, well from my point of view that seems about right.
Now I wont argue that Big Brother overstepped it boundries.
Now all you folks with all the facts can anyone tell me why he changed his name?0 -
He was on the run from Billy the Kid, according to msnbc.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
He was on the run from Billy the Kid, according to msnbc.
Doug
Even if YOU believe the meida hype about Billy being dead I dont... He is old and slow .... not hard to outrun any more...[:D]0 -
Can't outrun a .45 Colt.
Doug0 -
Damn! I was hoping Waco had gotten some new resturants! 0
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