STEN Mk. III legal advice
ok sorry all this is going to be long so please bear with me... my friend wrote this too me... i know quite a bit about florida firearms law (due to circumstances that i dont really want to talk about)
i know you probably get bored over there, so if you want to research something for me feel free to help out.
i umm... recently finished that Sten MkIII "dummy gun" and i was thinking about the legality of it all since i like to build stuff i was thinking about getting into gunsmithing.i read this today but really havnt found alot on the subject, i think ill go to the library but idk how uptodate they are with the laws n such.
An 80% frame is actually a "special case" with the BATF and comes under restrictions that apply to any metal castings that are used to form the basis for gun parts.In this case, what we are talking about is a metal casting that has been "almost" completed. It was cast, and then some of the milling work was done to
it... but they stopped before they cut the slide rails (or any other combo of cuts that add up to the remaining 20% of the milling steps). Because the manufacturer stopped working on the piece BEFORE it was finished.... the piece is still in a state of limbo, so to speak.... it isn't really a "Gun" but it isn't really a raw hunk of metal either.The castings do NOT have any serial numbers or roll marks on them (normally the last step in the manufacturing process). In this form they are still considered
to be just pieces of metal as far as the BATF and the Brady Bill are concerned. If the manufacturer takes them one step further... then they are subject to all the laws of the land that apply to firearms. Remember that as far as the ATF is
concerned... the frame/receiver IS the firearm.... and everything else is just parts.So it is perfectly legal to order an 80% frame/receiver from the distributor and there is no paperwork at all involved. You do not need to be an FFL dealer, anyone that wants one can just call and give their credit card number and *poof*
out it goes in the mail. Ok..... sounds really cool huh? So what's the rub? Well the bottom line is... YOU (and only you) have to finish the final machining process on it yourself. There are no serial numbers and the firearm (once it is complete) can NEVER.... let me say that again to be sure you understand it...
NEVER, EVER be sold to anyone else.... period! It would be a firearm for "personal use only" and the only other living soul that you may legally give it to would be an heir (to your son in your will for instance).If you build your own firearm in this way, then you are acting as a firearms manufacturer which is perfectly legal as long as it is for personal use only. Much as it's legal to make all the homemade wine/beer that you want as long as
it is not for resale....(well same basic idea anyway).
im looking for laws and what can and cant be done.. i know i can mod firearms,
but im not sure about making them from scratch, ya know.
[black]S0 i wrote this back to him.....
well... nice gald you finished it...as far as i know owning the 80% w/parts is not illegal (which is what you had ordered w/ parts as described... however in florida once you complete that 20% without a gunsmith liscence and complete the weapon with the parts, then it becomes an illegal firearm (not to mention the no serial #s thing) it also depends on what type of rifle it would be considered... would this be considered a rifle/pistol/sub-machine gun, actual machine gun, "junk gun".... see my point.. without really knowing what this "self manufactured" (and that is what it becomes once you put it all together) is classified with the BATF, or how you built it, then it may not even be legal to own... for instance if you made this into a full machinegun like the actual sten III was then you would have a class III item, without a serial #, not registered with the BATF (and could not be due to the no serial #) as well as manafactured (put together) without a manufacturers (gunsmiths) liscence or even a grant from the BATf to " modify a firearm" though i dont know if that last piont would be valid if it was that whole 80/20 thing... if it was a de-milled STEN then i believe that it woud qualify. now if it is considered a " junk gun" as of right now it would not be considered illegal since there is no regulation on "saturday night specials" or junk guns in florida. i will do some research and let you know.... really if you a good answer i would talk to my friend Jon H Gutmacher he is one of the most prominent firearms attorneys in florida (and cnsidering my past you know what i am talkting about) ... i have his book actually, i think this topic might be coverd in there as well. next time you are in my area, give ashley a call and she can give you the book. i wrote alittle more on the subject but this e-mail is already long already... please let me know if you all know anything and i will add this to my research for him
THANKS GUN BROKER FORUM ! ! ! !
V/r
Aaron C. Combs
Sergeant U.S. Army
Camp Arifjan. Kuwait
i know you probably get bored over there, so if you want to research something for me feel free to help out.
i umm... recently finished that Sten MkIII "dummy gun" and i was thinking about the legality of it all since i like to build stuff i was thinking about getting into gunsmithing.i read this today but really havnt found alot on the subject, i think ill go to the library but idk how uptodate they are with the laws n such.
An 80% frame is actually a "special case" with the BATF and comes under restrictions that apply to any metal castings that are used to form the basis for gun parts.In this case, what we are talking about is a metal casting that has been "almost" completed. It was cast, and then some of the milling work was done to
it... but they stopped before they cut the slide rails (or any other combo of cuts that add up to the remaining 20% of the milling steps). Because the manufacturer stopped working on the piece BEFORE it was finished.... the piece is still in a state of limbo, so to speak.... it isn't really a "Gun" but it isn't really a raw hunk of metal either.The castings do NOT have any serial numbers or roll marks on them (normally the last step in the manufacturing process). In this form they are still considered
to be just pieces of metal as far as the BATF and the Brady Bill are concerned. If the manufacturer takes them one step further... then they are subject to all the laws of the land that apply to firearms. Remember that as far as the ATF is
concerned... the frame/receiver IS the firearm.... and everything else is just parts.So it is perfectly legal to order an 80% frame/receiver from the distributor and there is no paperwork at all involved. You do not need to be an FFL dealer, anyone that wants one can just call and give their credit card number and *poof*
out it goes in the mail. Ok..... sounds really cool huh? So what's the rub? Well the bottom line is... YOU (and only you) have to finish the final machining process on it yourself. There are no serial numbers and the firearm (once it is complete) can NEVER.... let me say that again to be sure you understand it...
NEVER, EVER be sold to anyone else.... period! It would be a firearm for "personal use only" and the only other living soul that you may legally give it to would be an heir (to your son in your will for instance).If you build your own firearm in this way, then you are acting as a firearms manufacturer which is perfectly legal as long as it is for personal use only. Much as it's legal to make all the homemade wine/beer that you want as long as
it is not for resale....(well same basic idea anyway).
im looking for laws and what can and cant be done.. i know i can mod firearms,
but im not sure about making them from scratch, ya know.
[black]S0 i wrote this back to him.....
well... nice gald you finished it...as far as i know owning the 80% w/parts is not illegal (which is what you had ordered w/ parts as described... however in florida once you complete that 20% without a gunsmith liscence and complete the weapon with the parts, then it becomes an illegal firearm (not to mention the no serial #s thing) it also depends on what type of rifle it would be considered... would this be considered a rifle/pistol/sub-machine gun, actual machine gun, "junk gun".... see my point.. without really knowing what this "self manufactured" (and that is what it becomes once you put it all together) is classified with the BATF, or how you built it, then it may not even be legal to own... for instance if you made this into a full machinegun like the actual sten III was then you would have a class III item, without a serial #, not registered with the BATF (and could not be due to the no serial #) as well as manafactured (put together) without a manufacturers (gunsmiths) liscence or even a grant from the BATf to " modify a firearm" though i dont know if that last piont would be valid if it was that whole 80/20 thing... if it was a de-milled STEN then i believe that it woud qualify. now if it is considered a " junk gun" as of right now it would not be considered illegal since there is no regulation on "saturday night specials" or junk guns in florida. i will do some research and let you know.... really if you a good answer i would talk to my friend Jon H Gutmacher he is one of the most prominent firearms attorneys in florida (and cnsidering my past you know what i am talkting about) ... i have his book actually, i think this topic might be coverd in there as well. next time you are in my area, give ashley a call and she can give you the book. i wrote alittle more on the subject but this e-mail is already long already... please let me know if you all know anything and i will add this to my research for him
THANKS GUN BROKER FORUM ! ! ! !
V/r
Aaron C. Combs
Sergeant U.S. Army
Camp Arifjan. Kuwait
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I do not know Florida law but it is not against the federal law to build a semi-auto gun from parts and an 80% reciever,,it is not against the Federal law to build it with no serial number as long as you dont sell it...but as stated it may break some state law of some kind 0
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