The Marines................
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quote:Originally posted by bgjohn
Interrogatory,the following is a question. Is it true that the marines were routed in their first battle?
I heard the British opened fire and the marines ran like rabbits. This I heard on the radio awhile ago. I don't remember the exact source.
JM[?]
Don't attack the messenger. Defend the premise. Perhaps I'm wrong about the Marines, but it's up to you to convince me.
JM0 -
Happy Birthday Marine Corp.Here's hoping for many more years.!! 0 -
I know it's fun to poke fun at certain branches of the military every now and then, but with out those branches this great tree of the U.S. would have never stood this long with out the help of so many brave men and women. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by dcon12
I thought it was Mo-rines. Don
ahooora! [8D]0 -
Here's some pics of the old boys of The Fighting Fourth whom you might want to remember on their Birthday:
http://mysite.verizon.net/res71z3x/index.html0 -
quote:Originally posted by bgjohn
quote:Originally posted by bgjohn
Interrogatory,the following is a question. Is it true that the marines were routed in their first battle?
I heard the British opened fire and the marines ran like rabbits. This I heard on the radio awhile ago. I don't remember the exact source.
JM[?]
Don't attack the messenger. Defend the premise. Perhaps I'm wrong about the Marines, but it's up to you to convince me.
JM
All right, without attacking: As per members.tripod.com, "United States Marine Corps History" (actually the word to use in a search is "Corp" -- "Corps" doesn't turn up the tripod site as quickly) -- following their initial formation early in the Revolutionary War, in April of 1778 a detachment of Marines assigned to the command of John Paul Jones participated in raids on English soil, the first successful enterprises of their sort in some 700 years. No mention of anyone running, and describing the raids as "successful" would imply that no one did. This is the first military action involving Marines, following formation of the Corps, according to the timeline.
While the Marine Corps is something of a tradition in my family, I am not and have never been a Marine, nor have I read extensively into the history of the Corps. I have, however, very extensively researched the Revolutionary War, and will happily bore you to death (as opposed to the methods by which some of the Marines on this forum might choose to bring about your demise [:D]) with all manner of both useful and useless trivia concerning the conflict. I have absolutely no recollection of ever reading or hearing that the Marines ran from anything or anyone, anywhere.
Since this discussion concerns an alleged "first" battle, which would put it early in the Revolution and seems to have been covered by the reference to Jones' raids on England, this is somewhat irrelevant -- but, during the War of 1812, when the British essentially sacked Washington, D.C., the home of the Commandant of the Marines was specifically spared being burned, precisely because the Marines encountered by the British in this raid had been the only United States forces to not either run or otherwise behave in a less than distinguished manner.
The Marines here will tell you that no Marine has ever run, and know it for a fact in their own hearts and minds. I can tell you the same and back it up with documented fact. If you're determined not to believe -- if you counter with a statement to the effect that perhaps there's some fact out there that neither the pride of the Corps nor the historical research I've done seems to recognize -- then it falls to you to uncover that fact. I would certainly risk the wrath of the entire Marine Corps to report that, yes, there was an incident they might not like to hear about -- if I could find evidence of such. I can't. So -- can you?0 -
Just for curiosity...why would a unit be PROUD of having heavier casualties than another??
To me that would seem to indicate poor leadership.
I am NOT knocking the USMC - I'm only wondering.
Doug0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Just for curiosity...why would a unit be PROUD of having heavier casualties than another??
To me that would seem to indicate poor leadership.
I am NOT knocking the USMC - I'm only wondering.
Doug
Without trying to be argumentative -- a higher casualty rate could also indicate having been given the worst jobs to do, combat-wise. Tarawa and Iwo Jima pop to mind -- I'm sure current and former members of the Corps could name ten hellholes on the Marine Corps roll of honor, for each of the two I just mentioned. The pride would derive from having gotten those jobs done, whatever the cost.
The Mongols, I believe, took the fortress of the Assassins in either the 12th or 13th century -- my memory's a tad bit hazy on this. At the time the stronghold was considered impregnable, based on the firsthand experience of other forces that had tried and failed to take it. The Mongols did it by direct assault, suffering fearsome casualties. Assuming an unavoidable need to reduce the fortress (as, for instance, the need to take Iwo was unavoidable), and given the failure of previous armies to do so by other methods than head-on attack, its capture at such high cost would not constitute poor leadership, and would certainly be an achievement of which those who participated had a right to be proud. IMHO.
No offense intended to the Marines, by mentioning the Mongols. Just a little historical perspective.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bgjohn
quote:Originally posted by bgjohn
Interrogatory,the following is a question. Is it true that the marines were routed in their first battle?
I heard the British opened fire and the marines ran like rabbits. This I heard on the radio awhile ago. I don't remember the exact source.
JM[?]
Don't attack the messenger. Defend the premise. Perhaps I'm wrong about the Marines, but it's up to you to convince me.
JM
No it's not.0 -
Retreat Hell! Call it stupidity, call it what you will. I call it DUTY!
quote:2nd Battalion, 5th Marines is the most highly decorated battalion in the United States Marine Corps. Its motto comes from its actions at Belleau Wood during WW I. The fleeing French advised the newly arrived Marines to retreat in the face of overwhelming odds. The Battalion's response: "Retreat, Hell!"
The USMC is over 231 years of romping, stomping, ...., death and destruction. The
finest fighting machine the world has ever seen. We were born in a bomb crater, our
mother was a saber and our father was the devil. Each moment that I live is an
additional threat upon your life. I am a rough looking, roving soldier of the sea. I am
cocky, self-centered, overbearing, and I do not know the meaning of fear, for I am fear
itself. I am a green, amphibious monster made of blood and guts who arose from the
sea, feeding on anti-Americans throughout the globe. Whenever it may arise, and when
my time comes, I will die a glorious death on the battle field, giving my life to Mom, the
Corps, and the American flag. We stole the Eagle from the Air Force, the Anchor from
the Navy, and the rope from the Army. On the 7th day, while God rested, we over-ran
his perimeter and stole the Globe, and we've been running the show ever since. We live
like soldiers and talk like sailors and slap the bleen out of both of them. Killer by day,
Lover by night, Drunkard by choice, MARINE BY GOD!!!!!!!
Marines, past and present, repost if you are proud to have earned the title United States
Marine0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
If I'm not mistaken, the only "retreat" in Marine history was the Chosin Reservoir, right? And even then it was more of a withdrawal than a full-blown retreat since, to my knowledge, they left no wounded or dead behind.
Regardless, anyone who says the Marines "ran like rabbits" is either ignorant of historical facts or is craving the attention only a troll would want.
Here go EMM: Here's some results of what the Marines did while moving south from the Chosin Reservoir to back up your claim. [:)]
From the link: http://www.kmike.com/MarineCorpsKorea/Marines.htm
Despite intelligence in early November that Chinese Communists forces were massing in force across the Yalu River, the lst Marine Division was ordered to continue its progress northwest from Hungnam to the Chosin Reservoir. Elements of the division reached Hagaru-ri, at the southern tip of the Reservoir, on 15 November. The brief autumn weather was almost over, and the temperatures were turning bitterly cold. On 27 November, elements of the Chinese Communist People's Liberation Army struck Marine positions in force. In a carefully planned counterstroke, eight Chinese divisions charged down from surrounding mountains with the express mission of destroying the lst Marine Division.
Over the next four weeks, the Chinese and Marine forces engaged in some of the fiercest fighting of the Korean War. In an epic movement, the 1st Marine Division completed a successful fighting withdrawal through 78 miles of mountain roads in northeast Korea, that ended in mid-December with the amphibious evacuation of the Marines from the port of Hungnam, Korea. Although suffering over 4,000 battle casualties, and uncounted numbers of frostbite, Marine air and ground units had inflicted nearly 25,000 casualties on Chinese Communist forces.
China was lucky the Marines decided not to cross the Yalu and advance north.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bgjohn
Is it true that the marines were routed in their first battle? I heard the British opened fire and the marines ran like rabbits.
JM[?]
You are an ignorant fool who doesn't know what you are talking about.0 -
Use the military.com buddy finder.
There's only been 1 US Marine that bore the title of God.
Crazy MF'er. Only .0000000000000001 of Americans know his family history.
God was a US Marine. Now shsssss......About Face.0 -
Spider 7115: Your quote : " Yes, the Army has suffered many more losses than the other services but, please bear in mind, they are also the largest so their casualties would naturally be higher. ".
Not true. I was only using combat Divisions figures for both services. Both Army and Marine Division strength was pretty close. In fact, Marine Div strength was a bit higher.0 -
In my Navy years, I've been back-to-back with many Marines.
I'm smarter than to have been nose-to-nose with any.
Interesting, if spurious post; I wonder what prompted it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ObiWan
Use the military.com buddy finder.
There's only been 1 US Marine that bore the title of God.
Crazy MF'er. Only .0000000000000001 of Americans know his family history.
God was a US Marine. Now shsssss......About Face.
GOD(USMC Retired)
Marines! We don't retreat! It's called a tactical withdraw!0 -
quote:Originally posted by bgjohn
Is it true that the marines were routed in their first battle? I heard the British opened fire and the marines ran like rabbits.
JM[?]
Which holiday do you celebrate during the Christmas Season? [:D][;)]0 -
I'm a 17 year AF vet. The closest thing I have been to combat is being mortared in Afghanistan. I am ground crew for the C-17. I have the deepest respect for all branches of the service. I have recovered jets with "HR'S". That means human remains. I could stand to not remember the flag-draped caskets of our fallen. HAVE SOME RESPECT....[V] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
I haven't decided yet what I think of bgjohn's remarks. In a way I'm still waiting for the punch line.
There is no question that his first remark is bogus. What I haven't decided yet is whether he believes it and whether it was intended as a joke or an insult.
I have swapped comments with Marines myself, but it was Marines I knew and not on the eve of the Marine Corps Birthday, and we knew when to stop. There is a time and place for everything. This is not the time or place to be insulting Marines.
+1 I think this is the first I've read this thread...but I'm unsure as to what to make of it...0 -
quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
Just for curiosity...why would a unit be PROUD of having heavier casualties than another??
To me that would seem to indicate poor leadership.
I am NOT knocking the USMC - I'm only wondering.
Doug
I don't think that was the jist of Joe's post...0 -
Heck John, why bother starting crap with Marines here on the net, it's so impersonal. Why not stroll down to your local VFW and run your pie hole there? Now that would make for a much more memorable evening for ya, don't ya think??
And be sure to let us know how that works out for ya. [B)]0 -
WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM
i get tired of the Marine BS to and i get a load of it cause i am a Nat Guardsman(even Though we started the revolution and faught the majority of the Civil war)
it may or may not be a fact about them marines running in their first action, but it is true that they ran, with the rest of the union army, at first Manasas in the Civil War. But Then Again they were facing a superior Fo in the Confederate Stat es0 -
quote:WE ARE ALL ON THE SAME TEAM
i get tired of the Marine BS to and i get a load of it cause i am a Nat Guardsman(even Though we started the revolution and faught the majority of the Civil war)
I agree buddy! We are on the same team! I could care less if you are a Guardsman and I am a Marine. As long as you are fightin with me and not me. Show me one Military let alone one branch of service that has never retreated from a fight once in their existence. I don't know of any!0 -
the fact that the marines retreated at the first battle of manasas is nothing to be ashamed of McDowel(the Union commander ) was completely outclassed.
they were also not fighting in their element. at that time they were shipborne warriors and that is it. it wasn't really till the first world war that the marines became a land fighting force that they are today0 -
quote:Originally posted by staind460
they were also not fighting in their element. at that time they were shipborne warriors and that is it. it wasn't really till the first world war that the marines became a land fighting force that they are today
I guess you never heard of the whole "Halls of Montezuma" thing.....0 -
what i was refering to was that they were ship based that was there main mission. they were u7sed in land conflicts such as the Mexican American war and civil war but it was not till the 20th century that they were a major land force.
i am not denying their valor or contribution to every major and minor American conflict. it is a fact that they were originaly formed as ship born warriors0
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