357 @ 1000 fps for deer - Topic from Expert Forum
This topic has been discussed on the Expert Forum and is now locked because of the ten responses. However, further discussion of it may be more appropriate on this board. Mr. Bruce had the last word there and I would like to continue the discussion.
The point that Mr. Bruce made was that a 158 gr 357 @ 1000 fps will easily kill a 200 lb man but many do not consider it adequate for a whitetail deer. I am one that does not.
The 357 is an excellent man stopper. It has been used by most law enforcement agencies for that purpose. However, seldom does one encounter the need to engage a "man" at 50 yds or even 100 yds. That is normal hunting distances for handgun hunters. Also, when engaging a "man," the objective is to "stop" him or render him incapable of continued combat. When hunting deer, my objective is a quick clean kill not just a serious wound. Because handgun velocities are low (compared to rifles ---- 1000 - 1700 fps), the shock of the high velocity impact does not occur. Thus, excellent shot placement and a sizeable entry and exit wound is desireable to accomplish the objective of harvesting the animal efficiently.
At lower velocities (less than 1000 fps), I am not comfortable that even expanding JSP will expand properly. A larger caliber is one way to assure that the entry and exit wounds are larger. More weight in the projectile also improves penetration. I have observed numerous animals hit with hard cast bullets that do not expand appreciably. If sizeable bone is not hit, the animals often run a long way. I observed a Sika deer (about the size of a whitetail) absorb four 260 gr nonexpanding projectiles from a 454 @ about 1700 fps. The distance was less than 75 yds. The 4th one put him down & he was finished with a 22 in the ear. I saw an oryx absorb 7 cast bullets from a 41 mag before it went down. I could go on but hopefully my point is made.
In my handgun hunting experience (10+ yrs now), I have used contenders and revolvers. I have evolved to the point where I now only use revolvers. I often find myself presented with the opportunity for the shot at distances beyond 50 yds. My self imposed limit for my revolvers is 125 yds. However, because I have observed many animals shot with revolvers (by me and by others), I would discourage a new handgunner to go forth with a marginal round. I do not consider myself an expert but I would leave the lightly loaded 357 to the "expert." I use more gun.
The point that Mr. Bruce made was that a 158 gr 357 @ 1000 fps will easily kill a 200 lb man but many do not consider it adequate for a whitetail deer. I am one that does not.
The 357 is an excellent man stopper. It has been used by most law enforcement agencies for that purpose. However, seldom does one encounter the need to engage a "man" at 50 yds or even 100 yds. That is normal hunting distances for handgun hunters. Also, when engaging a "man," the objective is to "stop" him or render him incapable of continued combat. When hunting deer, my objective is a quick clean kill not just a serious wound. Because handgun velocities are low (compared to rifles ---- 1000 - 1700 fps), the shock of the high velocity impact does not occur. Thus, excellent shot placement and a sizeable entry and exit wound is desireable to accomplish the objective of harvesting the animal efficiently.
At lower velocities (less than 1000 fps), I am not comfortable that even expanding JSP will expand properly. A larger caliber is one way to assure that the entry and exit wounds are larger. More weight in the projectile also improves penetration. I have observed numerous animals hit with hard cast bullets that do not expand appreciably. If sizeable bone is not hit, the animals often run a long way. I observed a Sika deer (about the size of a whitetail) absorb four 260 gr nonexpanding projectiles from a 454 @ about 1700 fps. The distance was less than 75 yds. The 4th one put him down & he was finished with a 22 in the ear. I saw an oryx absorb 7 cast bullets from a 41 mag before it went down. I could go on but hopefully my point is made.
In my handgun hunting experience (10+ yrs now), I have used contenders and revolvers. I have evolved to the point where I now only use revolvers. I often find myself presented with the opportunity for the shot at distances beyond 50 yds. My self imposed limit for my revolvers is 125 yds. However, because I have observed many animals shot with revolvers (by me and by others), I would discourage a new handgunner to go forth with a marginal round. I do not consider myself an expert but I would leave the lightly loaded 357 to the "expert." I use more gun.
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Not had much experience with a 357 but would tend to agree that a bullet at low fps would not be the best. I feel a .22 is sufficient...provided one can be assured of precise shot placement. 0 -
I would think a .357 from a rifle length barrel would be acceptable (though not my personal first or second choice), but not from a handgun. 0 -
That's true - the last Alaskan man-killing grizzly - in the process of mauling a man -
was stopped/taken with a .220 Swift, by his friend.0 -
The point that Mr. Bruce made was that a 158 gr 357 @ 1000 fps will easily kill a 200 lb man but many do not consider it adequate for a whitetail deer. I am one that does not.
Here he does not mention bullet design
The 357 is an excellent man stopper. It has been used by most law enforcement agencies for that purpose. However, seldom does one encounter the need to engage a "man" at 50 yds or even 100 yds. That is normal hunting distances for handgun hunters. Also, when engaging a "man," the objective is to "stop" him or render him incapable of continued combat. When hunting deer, my objective is a quick clean kill not just a serious wound. Because handgun velocities are low (compared to rifles ---- 1000 - 1700 fps), the shock of the high velocity impact does not occur. Thus, excellent shot placement and a sizeable entry and exit wound is desireable to accomplish the objective of harvesting the animal efficiently.
Correct and how are you obtaining that sizeable exit wound? Archery hunters face this same problem. The answer, a projectile that will cause a large exit wound, and proper shot placement
At lower velocities (less than 1000 fps), I am not comfortable that even expanding JSP will expand properly. A larger caliber is one way to assure that the entry and exit wounds are larger.
I disagree even a .45 cal bullet of the wrong design will not kill humanely
More weight in the projectile also improves penetration. I have observed numerous animals hit with hard cast bullets that do not expand appreciably. If sizeable bone is not hit, the animals often run a long way. I observed a Sika deer (about the size of a whitetail) absorb four 260 gr nonexpanding projectiles from a 454 @ about 1700 fps. The distance was less than 75 yds.
If I were your guide I would allow you to hunt with that caliber but not those projectiles/loads
The 4th one put him down & he was finished with a 22 in the ear. I saw an oryx absorb 7 cast bullets from a 41 mag before it went down. I could go on but hopefully my point is made.
In my handgun hunting experience (10+ yrs now), I have used contenders and revolvers. I have evolved to the point where I now only use revolvers. I often find myself presented with the opportunity for the shot at distances beyond 50 yds. My self imposed limit for my revolvers is 125 yds. However, because I have observed many animals shot with revolvers (by me and by others), I would discourage a new handgunner to go forth with a marginal round. I do not consider myself an expert but I would leave the lightly loaded 357 to the "expert." I use more gun.
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Again, this is an argument for shot placement at a particular yardage (I believe 125 yds is entirely to far for an accurate pistol shot placement) with the proper bullet design and weight and not a question of revolver vs. pistol vs. contentder vs. rifle0 -
I do not disagree with the responses from Likemhot. His basic point is proper bullet performance and shot placement. The situations that I cited above are ones observed with others being the shooters. Granted that the bullets (cast 41s & 260 gr 454s) were not properly placed. However, when the first shot does not hit where it should have, then the next shots are less likely to be precisely placed as the animal generally is less cooperative. Any subsequent hit on a wounded animal is better than no hit at all. Trying to "kill" one that is wounded is not fun nor is it pretty.
For my own use I choose only expanding bullets that will perform at the velocity remaining within my limits on range. My normal "hunting gun" is a FA 41 Mag revolver loaded with 210 gr XTPs leaving the muzzle near 1600 fps. This revolver is scope sighted and will group 5 shots within 2 1/2" @ 100 yds off sandbags with me doing the shooting. If I do my job, it does not need a follow-up shot.
In addition (and probably more importantly) I practice, practice, and practice some more. I usually only expend one round on a hunt but I go through many hundred rounds during the year in preparation for the hunt. I have 32 swinging and spinning metal targets of various sizes and shapes(from 1 1/2" diamonds to 8"x12" retangles and some animal shapes) set up at various distances from 40 yds to 120 yds. I shoot them. I am comfortable with regard to my limitations with each of my revolvers.
The best advice that I can give to anyone who wants to become a handgun hunter is get a good gun, put a dot sight or a scope on it, and shoot it a lot.0 -
quote:and not a question of revolver vs. pistol vs. contentder vs. rifle
There are a lot of factors there that are important - especially contentder vs. rifle.
[:D]0 -
Well...fine.
Doug0 -
Ethical hunting demands that a quick kill is made. Generally speaking the comment is that the 357 with hollowpoints is a good man "stopper". This doesn't exactly mean killer. An injury that would stop a human might result in a deer traveling a considerable distance making it unrecoverable. I have used the 357 with 158 HP to take 3-4 deer at ranges of 40-75 yards with a handgun but in this limited experience the hits were good and the terrain allowed me to watch the deer until it dropped. None of them left much of a blood trail. 0 -
quote:Ethical hunting
Uh-oh - wrong forum.
[;)]0 -
In all the animals I have killed I have found that if you place a bullet through both lungs and whack a few other important parts along the way the animal will die.
Running across state lines with BOTH lungs and heart parts hit is over rated folk lore. there is a point where blood loss and inability to exchange O2 in the lungs will cause unconsciousness and death. That will occur pretty fast and within about 400 yards or so.0 -
I agree with bpost. You shoot a deer broadside with anything behind the shoulder hitting both lungs, the critter will bleed to death. 0 -
Not sure how big the deer are in you area, but if you don't think a .357 will kill a deer you either haven't tested it or are in denial. Deer are thin-skinned game(they themselves are tough, but folks there skin isn't). I also think that people sometimes consider velocity and energy a way too important factor in situations like this. Would you rather have a 45-70 loaded with 540 gr. cast bullets or a .270 loaded with a 130 gr. bullet as defense against a charging grizzly? Most people would choose the 45-70 which has a velocity of 1550 and energy of 2880. The .270 has a velocity of 3100 and energy of 2800. The .270 numbers are better, but we all know which would perform better. This is very comparable to the topic being discussed here. Velocity helps in penetration, but when you are using the right bullet(such as a cast bullet, etc.) it will penetrate well because is does not mushroom like a jacketed bullet and low velocities are actually better.
Jon0 -
last season i droped dead a large doe with 38 spl
+p federal from a s&w 638 no problem. run up from my blind to see it already dead.no nead for a canon on whit tail, just range time. biggest deer i ever saw dead was shot by my uncle in the eye with a 22 short.thank you for your time.stay safe out in the big world.0 -
Once again, a 30-06, 12 ga shotgun, or 50 caliber muzzleloader are not needed to kill a white tail deer. Shot placement is everything, and if it were leagal in my state, and I could have all of my shots at deer 125 yards or under, on standing deer, i would have but one deer gun. It would not be kicking the snot out of me either, as it would be either a 17HMR, or a 22WMR. I have seen them in action, and have not seen a deer drop any faster.
If you take that 158 grain SWC@1000 FPS, and put it in the boiler room, you are going to kill that deer. You might have to track it a little, but it is going to die. No your limitations, and surroundings, so that the mortally wounded deer will not be able to run off into some swamp where you will loose the track.0 -
Its funny how people talk about a bullet not having enough energy to make a quick kill and take any animal in its tracks and how we must make a quick clean kill,,,I believe we should do this when possible,,,but more deer are killed every year with a Bow and the amount of archers are growing every year as more states offer longer and longer archery seasons..we have 3 months here.how many deer have to bleed out when stuck with an arrow?? how long do you wait to even try to track a deer after he was stuck ?? how long does it have to lay on the ground suffering before you even try to go out and find it??? My point is,,TO EACH HIS OWN,,if someone wants to use a .357 at 50yrds and they are good enough to do it,,its their decision,,I dont think a .223 is enough gun for deer in most peoples hands,,,but many do including the game and fish division of this state so if you want to use your ar-15 and your good enough with shot placement ,,go for it,,Whats good for one person may not be the same for anyone else,,As a youngun I used to run a trap line every morning before school,,I promise you I have killed more deer with a .22 than many in here will ever kill in their entire lives,,one shot in the ear or between the eyes and they will never take a step,,so in the right hands a .357 is plenty gun 0
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