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Define Muscle Car......

dolfan
On the "Favorite muscle car" thread, Doug posted:

Muscle cars are mid-sized cars, built between 1964 and 1971, which have big block engines.

The rest may be muscular, but they ain't muscle cars. Doug

*****PER Wiki and the car rags "Motor Trend & Car & Driver, Doug is correct. A Corvette by definition IS NOT A muscle car.



From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The Pontiac GTO is a classic example of the muscle car.
A muscle car is a high-performance automobile. The term principally refers to American, Australian and South African models and generally describes a 2-door rear wheel drive mid-size car with a large, powerful V8 engine and special trim, intended for maximum torque on the street or in drag racing competition. It is distinguished from sports cars, which were customarily and coincidentally considered smaller, two-seat cars, or GTs, two-seat or 2+2 cars intended for high-speed touring and possibly road racing. High-performance full-size or compact cars are arguably excluded from this category, as are the breed of compact sports coupes inspired by the Ford Mustang. Other factors used in defining classic muscle cars are their age and country of origin. A classic muscle car is usually made in the US or Australia between 1964 and 1975. Notably, the term "muscle car" did not enter common usage until after production of the cars had essentially ended. During their heyday, print media usually referred to this class of vehicle as "supercars".



American muscle cars

Motor Trend identified the following models as "musclecars" in 1965:

1962-1965 Dodge Dart 413/426 Max Wedge/426 Hemi/Plymouth Fury 413/426 Max Wedge/426 Hemi
1964-1965 Ford Thunderbolt 427
1965-1969 Buick Skylark Gran Sport
1965-1970 Dodge Coronet/Plymouth Belvedere 426-S
1965 Chevrolet Chevelle Malibu SS
1965-1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442
Road & Track identified the following models as "musclecars" in 1965:

1964-1965 Pontiac Tempest Le Mans/GTO
1965-1975 Buick Riviera Gran Sport
1965-1969 Buick Skylark Gran Sport
1965-1970 Dodge Coronet/Plymouth Belvedere 426-S
1965 Chevrolet Chevelle Malibu SS
1965-1967 Oldsmobile Cutlass 442

Car and Driver also created a list of the 10 Best muscle cars for its January 1990 issue. The magazine focused on the engines and included:

1966-1967 Plymouth/Dodge intermediates with 426 Hemi
1968-1969 Plymouth/Dodge intermediates with 426 Hemi
1970-1971 Plymouth/Dodge intermediates with 426 Hemi
1966-1967 Chevy II SS327
1966-1969 Chevrolet Chevelle SS396
1968-1969 Chevy II Nova SS396
1969 Ford Cobra 428
1969 Plymouth Road Runner/Dodge Super Bee 440 Six Pack
1970 Chevrolet Chevelle SS454
1969 Pontiac GTO

Other muscle cars include the following:

1968-1974 AMC AMX, AMC Javelin AMX
1969 AMC SC/Rambler
1970-1971 AMC Rebel AMC Matador The Machine
1970-1974 Buick GSX
1965-1973 Chevrolet Chevelle SS 454
1958-1985 Chevrolet Impala SS
1970-1972 Chevrolet Monte Carlo SS454
1963-1974 Chevrolet Nova SS
1970-1974 Dodge Challenger
1966-1974 Dodge Charger
1968-1976 Dodge Dart GT, GTS, Swinger, and Demon
1969-1970 Dodge Charger Daytona nose cone, goalpost wing
1968-1971 Dodge Super Bee
1966-1969 Ford Fairlane GT, GTA, and Cobra
1968-1974 Ford Torino (GT, Cobra and Ford Torino Talladega)
1967-1973 Mercury Cougar Cougar Eliminator
1968-1971 Oldsmobile 442
1964-1974 Plymouth Barracuda aka 'Cuda
1970-1976 Plymouth Duster
1967-1971 Plymouth GTX
1968-1974 Plymouth Road Runner
1970 Plymouth Superbird with nose cone and goalpost wing
1966-1974 Pontiac GTO
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Comments

57 comments

Date Votes
  • Mk 19
    Yes, Doug is correct on the proper definition, but unfortunitly in todays world any muscular car is known as a muscle car.
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  • jwb267
    i am surprised. i thought my 396-375 1968 camaro ss whould be listed as one
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  • Mk 19
    No, your Camaro is a Pony car not a muscle car, the same as a mustang, however the list is wrong as a Baracuda is a pony car also, not a muscle car.
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  • dongizmo
    Ya but according to some, you don't know sheit if you can't post a picture of your car..........
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  • Colt Super
    It is comforting to see that there are still folks on this board, who have no self-aggrandizing agenda, and can think.

    Thank you.

    Doug
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  • tomh.
    quote:Originally posted by Mk 19
    No, your Camaro is a Pony car not a muscle car, the same as a mustang, however the list is wrong as a Baracuda is a pony car also, not a muscle car.


    Then that AMC Javelin would probably be a Pony Car too?

    And the Corvette is a big block, rear wheel drive, mid-size. Why doesn't it qualify?
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  • tomh.
    OK, now hold on a second....a 69 Camaro SS with 375HP 396 isn't a Muscle car, but a Buick Riviera IS?

    I think tomh's list is gonna differ a little!
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  • Marc1301
    My first car was a used 1971 Roadrunner with the 440!
    Started me on the short track to losing my license for a few.
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  • spanielsells
    Your definition of muscle car is all screwed up.

    A muscle car is one that makes a gorgeous woman's knees melt and draws her to the vehicle, drooling and ready to do just about anything.
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  • Colt Super
    Yep, as is the 2 seater AMX - also known as the "corvette eater" - I had a '70 AMX ram air 390/4 speed.

    But since I don't have one now, or have any pictures of it, I don't have any knowledge about it - like about the "D" shaped exhaust ports that needed Sanderson Headers to work right, or the factory traction bars on both sides, or that the best carb for it at the time was the Holly List 4118, 715 cfm from a Shelby Mustang.

    The 390 c.i. Mark Donahue Javelins were GREAT, under-rated cars, as were the Hurst 390 Rambler Scramblers.

    I think the 390/401 Matadors were the closest AMC got to a Muscle Car...
    ...well maybe the Rambler Scrambler would fit.

    Rambler didn't really have a "Big Block" and a "Small Block". The blocks were the same from the 301(Trans-Am) engine through the 390/401.

    But please disregard what I've said, 'cause I don't have any of those cars, or even pictures of them, some my knowledge can't be trusted.

    Doug
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  • iceracerx
    Doug, please refresh my memory on the AMC "Machine".

    IIRC you could actually fit adults in the back seat of a RIVIERA, unlike any Camaro that I ever owned.
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  • Mk 19
    quote:quote:
    Originally posted by Mk 19

    No, your Camaro is a Pony car not a muscle car, the same as a mustang, however the list is wrong as a Baracuda is a pony car also, not a muscle car.



    Then that AMC Javelin would probably be a Pony Car too?

    And the Corvette is a big block, rear wheel drive, mid-size. Why doesn't it qualify?

    Yes the Javelin would be a pony car, a Corvette, being a 2 seater, is a sportscar.
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  • dolfan
    Doug, your modesty is killing me![:D]
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  • select-fire
    SCREW Wikipedia

    Merriam Webster defines it below:



    Main Entry: muscle car
    Pronunciation: \-#716;k?r\
    Function: noun
    Date: 1969
    : any of a group of American-made 2-door sports coupes with powerful engines designed for high-performance driving

    GW.. The Corvette Guy
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  • dolfan
    Select, you're wrong. Websters? Please.
    My post references "Road & Track and Car & Driver" mags.
    Want more proof?

    Go to the real source then, "The Muscle Car Club, World Wide Registry."

    Bottom line, a Vette is a "sportscar", like a Porsche!

    Check out their link:
    http://musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/musclecars-definition.shtml

    From the website:
    Strict Definition of a Muscle Car:

    A muscle car, by the strictest definition, is an intermediate sized, performance oriented model, powered by a large V8 engine, at an affordable price. Most of these models were based on "regular" production vehicles. These vehicles are generally not considered muscle cars, even when equipped with large V8s. If there was a high performance version available, it gets the credit, and not the vehicle that it was based on.

    Two seat sports cars such as the Chevrolet Corvette and the Ford Thunderbird are not considered muscle cars due to their high price and specialty nature. The only exception is the AMC AMX as it was relatively cheap, and was based on the AMC Javalin pony car.

    Vehicle Muscle Car? Classification Notes
    AMC AMX Yes Pony Car Even though it only has two seats, because it is based on the Javalin, it is a muscle car
    AMC Javalin No Pony Car Only the AMX variation or big block V8s are considered muscle cars
    Buick GS Yes Intermediate Muscle Car Based on Buick Skylark
    Buick Riviera No Personal Luxury Car Too expensive and big
    Buick Skylark (non-GS) No Intermediate Car Only GS versions are considered muscle cars
    Buick Wildcat No Fullsize Car Too large
    Chevrolet Camaro Yes Pony car Only SS and Z28 models are considered muscle cars
    Chevrolet Chevelle SS Yes Intermediate Muscle Car Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
    Chevrolet Chevelle (non-SS) No Intermediate Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
    Chevrolet Corvette No Sports Car The two seats, fiberglass body, and high price make it a sports car.
    Chevrolet Impala SS Yes Fullsize Muscle Car Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
    Chevrolet Monte Carlo No Personal Luxury Too expensive
    Chevrolet Nova Yes Compact Car Only SS versions are considered muscle cars
    *****LIST CONTINUES...NOT POSTED TO SAVE BANDWIDTH![:D]
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  • select-fire
    I only C&P off of the website. Webster wrong.. get real.
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  • dolfan
    You going French, "waiving the white flag?"[:D]

    BTW, not to put down the Vette...no question a fine "sportscar" but not a "muscle car" by definition!!!

    On another note, is the GS really that great of an investment?

    I look at the '78 Silver Anniversary Edition, '79 Pace Car, and that other Vette "Collector's Edition" (the one with the fancy rims) and don't see the investment quotia. These were also limited editions from 25 years ago, the timeframe *you used* as a benchmark.

    I don't know the production numbers of these Vettes but you can buy them on the cheap...mint condition for around $20K.

    IMO, the '07 Z-O6 with the 6sd will be the top dollar car in 25 yrs.
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  • bhale187
    I did a goggle of muscle car definition and nearly every site had a different definition. here are the top results...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muscle_car

    http://www.musclecarclub.com/musclecars/general/musclecars-definition.shtml

    http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/muscle+car

    http://cars.about.com/od/helpforcarbuyers/tp/top_muscle.htm

    http://www.yourdictionary.com/muscle-car

    http://www.t-ce.com/muscle-car-models.html
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  • Colt Super
    quote:Originally posted by Doug Wilson
    Yep, as is the 2 seater AMX - also known as the "corvette eater" - I had a '70 AMX ram air 390/4 speed.

    But since I don't have one now, or have any pictures of it, I don't have any knowledge about it - like about the "D" shaped exhaust ports that needed Sanderson Headers to work right, or the factory traction bars on both sides, or that the best carb for it at the time was the Holly List 4118, 715 cfm from a Shelby Mustang.

    The 390 c.i. Mark Donahue Javelins were GREAT, under-rated cars, as were the Hurst 390 Rambler Scramblers.

    I think the 390/401 Matadors were the closest AMC got to a Muscle Car...
    ...well maybe the Rambler Scrambler would fit.

    Rambler didn't really have a "Big Block" and a "Small Block". The blocks were the same from the 301(Trans-Am) engine through the 390/401.

    But please disregard what I've said, 'cause I don't have any of those cars, or even pictures of them, so my knowledge can't be trusted.

    Doug
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  • Colt Super
    iceracer, X1 -

    I totally forgot about the Rebel Machine. It was a cool looking, very limited edition, and I'm sure it fits perfectly in the category of Muscle Car.

    I find it strange that they placed the 2 seater AMX as a Muscle Car, since it could run rings around such sports cars as the Jaguar and the corvette. I always considered the ones I had as sports cars.

    Doug
    A!
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  • Marc1301
    quote:Originally posted by dolfan

    You going French, "waiving the white flag?"[:D]

    BTW, not to put down the Vette...no question a fine "sportscar" but not a "muscle car" by definition!!!

    On another note, is the GS really that great of an investment?

    I look at the '78 Silver Anniversary Edition, '79 Pace Car, and that other Vette "Collector's Edition" (the one with the fancy rims) and don't see the investment quotia. These were also limited editions from 25 years ago, the timeframe *you used* as a benchmark.

    I don't know the production numbers of these Vettes but you can buy them on the cheap...mint condition for around $20K.

    IMO, the '07 Z-O6 with the 6sd will be the top dollar car in 25 yrs.




    Oh man,...........have you just opened a huge can of worms!
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  • select-fire
    quote:Originally posted by dolfan

    You going French, "waiving the white flag?"[:D]

    BTW, not to put down the Vette...no question a fine "sportscar" but not a "muscle car" by definition!!!

    On another note, is the GS really that great of an investment?

    I look at the '78 Silver Anniversary Edition, '79 Pace Car, and that other Vette "Collector's Edition" (the one with the fancy rims) and don't see the investment quotia. These were also limited editions from 25 years ago, the timeframe *you used* as a benchmark.

    I don't know the production numbers of these Vettes but you can buy them on the cheap...mint condition for around $20K.

    IMO, the '07 Z-O6 with the 6sd will be the top dollar car in 25 yrs.





    White Flag.. Not here. Over 6500 1978 Pace Cars were built. Collector ediditions were a tad more at aroung 6750 units. Not the 1000 units of Grand Sports by any mean. These cars were also in the worst collectable years for Corvettes with very low horsepower. The GS cars are already great investments. They already have a registry for them. Only a few out there not registered. These cars are modern muscle. I will pass on any Zo6 as an investment. Too many of them. Now check out the Ron Fellows Z06.. 300 cars with some exported to Canada. That is an investment. BTW.. a nice 12 year old GS will bring more money than a standard brand spanking new 2008 Corvette. The Convertible 190 cars GS are bringing more than a new Z06 ! Go figure..
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  • spryor
    Glad to see the..

    1970-1974 Dodge Challenger

    made Car & Drivers list.

    The 74 360 (w/shift kit) i had would give any of them a run for their money...and embarrass many of them.[:)][8D][:)]
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  • fishkiller41
    What would you call a " '66 beetle VW with a '71 911 engine/transaxel"?
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  • Marc1301
    quote:Originally posted by fishkiller41
    What would you call a " '66 beetle VW with a '71 911 engine/transaxel"?

    POS
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  • select-fire
    quote:Originally posted by Marc1301
    quote:Originally posted by fishkiller41
    What would you call a " '66 beetle VW with a '71 911 engine/transaxel"?

    POS


    LMAO [:D]
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  • dolfan
    Thanks for the explanation, Select.
    Wasn't trying to "bust your chops" with my GS question.
    I was only trying to gain some knowledge as to why some Vettes are more collectable than others. I was in high school when the ones I listed came out and remember all the hoopla about'em, especially the "Collector's Edition".

    I'm no Vette expert...all I know is that I'd like one some day![:D]
    But alas, with small kids and a jealous wife...gonna have to wait awhile.

    Maybe I'll buy one of your GSs...in about 25 years.[;)][:D]
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  • Colt Super
    quote:Originally posted by fishkiller41
    What would you call a " '66 beetle VW with a '71 911 engine/transaxel"?


    I would call it "suicide".

    Doug
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  • select-fire
    quote:Originally posted by dolfan
    Thanks for the explanation, Select.
    Wasn't trying to "bust your chops" with my GS question.
    I was only trying to gain some knowledge as to why some Vettes are more collectable than others. I was in high school when the ones I listed came out and remember all the hoopla about'em, especially the "Collector's Edition".

    I'm no Vette expert...all I know is that I'd like one some day![:D]
    But alas, with small kids and a jealous wife...gonna have to wait awhile.

    Maybe I'll buy one of your GSs...in about 25 years.[;)][:D]



    I will gladly explain anything on a Corvette if I can. I don't know everything on them ! My collectable cars regardless of make in the past or future are limited supply vehicles. My firearm collection tends to be the same. Supply and demand. If a person has something that is in short supply the price of cheese goes up when selling. I would love to buy a new Shelby Mustang Convertible. They are nice limited run cars.
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  • dolfan
    quote:Originally posted by select-fire
    My firearm collection tends to be the same. Supply and demand. +1 on the new Shelby. I saw one listed not too long ago on ebay motors. The seller had Carrol Shelby sign the dash...very cool.

    Regarding firearms, I remember asking you about a 2 years ago, what was so special/collectable about Colt Pythons. I honestly did not know, not being into wheelguns. You gave me very good explanation about Pythons which encouraged me to buy one.
    I'll post pics one of these days.

    Here is a link on a "ask the experts" forum where I was trying to track down the date of manufacture. The seller told me he bought it new between '85-'87...he wasn't sure. It's unfired...no cylinder ring w/box.

    Thanks again for all the info.[:D]

    http://forums.gunbroker.com/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=210231&SearchTerms=colt,python
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