Paramedics watched people drown...
http://mysuncoast.com/Global/story.asp?S=7300801&nav=menu577_2_1
True heroes, they did their job and did it well.. Just like cops do their jobs
True heroes, they did their job and did it well.. Just like cops do their jobs
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"pitch black conditions...murky water. And he says a man who's drowning will always have enough strength to drown you both. "
Reminds me of a guy named Teddy, at a place called Chapaquitic ... a long time ago.0 -
Anyone who places their faith in someone else to save them is a fool.
Be prepared.0 -
I was not there so I can not say for sure what I would have done. Based on that single story I would not have gone in either. If I or my partner get hurt by doing something that we do not have the proper equipment for then we have just made the problem worse. I have I done things I "shouldn't" have done in the past? Sure but it really depends on the situation. I have pics of me repelling over a cliff this spring. I am not "trained" by our company to do so but I am comfortable doing it and had the Fire Depts equipment and assistance. I thought I was might get a "talking to" at the office when I found one of the pics posted on our fridge. Come to find out it was the boss that put it there [:D] 0 -
FIRST rule of responding to an emergency...
Do NOT become another emergency or a factor of the first emergency.0 -
It always depends. I've saved a few lives, as a younger man, and the only
rule(s) that I ever followed was Rule One: Self-preservation & Rule Two:
There is not a Rule Two once you are sure of Rule One. ... and of course,
there's always that element of luck.
Fortunately, I've always been lucky.0 -
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-There were at least two of these guys there. Didn't they have a rope? Tie the rope around one, he goes in and the other one, plus any folks standing around help pull them both out. They wouldn't have time to drown if the "victim" paniced.
Sounds like these two wizards aren't fit for their jobs. They passed all the tests but have no common sense or strong value for human life. They have fallen into that old police mentality of "us and them", which is embraced by police, fire departments, ems and others. They think they belong to some elite paramilitary brotherhood wherein citizens are "civilians" and they are some special category altogether. These people are hired and are paid to save the lives of other citizens. These guys are failures at that and very likely are criminally irresponsible.0 -
bondai ???
On this, I agree witcha.
Douh0 -
you don't always think of every possibility the first time... 0 -
wolf... unless you know what you are talking about and you are one of the "elite group" that you called out as being fireman or policeman or ems than you dont need to be talking about them at all. i am a fireman but no part of an elite group. we do try to save peoples lives if it is in gods will for their life to be saved. but we stick our life in danger everytime we run to a call code three to maybe going to your house because you are having a heartattack and dont want to die. if it wasnt for police and fireman, you might be dead by now. if you want to talk about somebodys job and dont know what they do or why they do it, look at 9/11. over 343 fireman died to save somebody with an attitude like yours. 0 -
Minutes later, paramedics arrived. But witnesses all said the same thing..."No one helped him. They just stared at him. They just put the light on his head but they didn't go in."
"He came up twice like this asking for help. Nobody jumped in the water."
Thomas drowned.
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I hope those medics can sleep at night. Seeing how strenuously their boss defended them, and made excuses for them, they will probably sleep ok.
Of course, another question is, why didn't any of the many bystanders go into the water? They probably watched so many tv shows where the Paramedics show up and always rescue the victim, that they believed what they saw on tv.
I was a Paramedic for 13 years. I was involved in a rescue somewhat like this. The call came in that a car with a child inside had rolled into the catfish pond at the state forest, where people can fish and they pay 50 cents a pound for the catfish they catch. Lots of people fish there.
When we got to the scene, there were 75 bystanders on the shore, most of them adults. Nobody was fishing, they were all looking at the water. There was no sign of a car. I asked a bystander "Did a car roll into this pond?"
He said, "Yep."
I said, "Was there a kid in that car?"
He said, "Yep, you could see him screaming in that rear window when it sank."
I said, "Where is that car?"
He said, "Just look out there for the oil slick."
Sure enough, in a minute, a gasoline bubble rose to the top. It was about 100 feet out.
Just like these Florida medics, we in Georgia were not trained in swimming rescues. But, I had done a lot of swimming, I had the Boy Scout merit badge in swimming, and the one mile swim. Also in college I was rated as Water Safety Instructor for one of my Phys Ed classes.
I was 33 years old, 6-3 and 225 and in great shape. I figured I was the man for the job. I stripped down to boxers and t shirt and went into the lake.
I knew my partner would not help, he did not swim.
I swam out to the car, it was in about 10 feet of water. When I stood on the roof, my head was just barely above water. The bad thing was, gas bubbles continuiously came up. When I breathed, I was breathing in lots of gasoline fumes. The water was very cold, I came back the next day with a thermometer, it was 49 degrees. The cold water made my chest muscles constrict involuntarily, it was hard to breathe.
The water was so murky, I literally could not see my hand before my face. I may as well have closed my eyes. I just groped along until I found the door handle, and opened the driver's door. Very difficult to open a car door underwater. Just opening the door took two dives. I felt around in there, could not feel the kid.
I got back up on the roof, and breathed in some more gasoline fume air.
I went over to the other side, dove down and groped for the passenger door. I opened it, and groped around inside.
Like on the driver's side, I made 3 or 4 dives on this side, groping around inside. I could not feel the kid.
I didn't know if the child was alive or dead. We were taught that the brain can go 4 minutes without oxygen, before brain damage begins. But, there could have been an air pocket in the ceiling of that car, for all I knew the kid was up in the ceiling, breathing from that air pocket. And there always was the Mammalian Diving Reflex.
I was starting to get in trouble, due to the cold and the fumes. I had been out there for 5 or 10 minutes. I realized that if my hand got caught in the springs under the seat, I was going to be trapped under ten feet of water, and I was going to die.
I looked back at the shore, besides the 75 civilians, there was my partner talking to eight cops. That is, three deputies, three state patrol, and two state forest Rangers. They were standing around, smoking cigarettes, like they were watching a movie. It turned out they were all waiting for the volunteer fire dept. dive team to arrive, with scuba gear etc. I saw a little john boat on the shore. I yelled to them, "Get that john boat and get out here and give me some help!"
Two deputies came out in the little boat, using oars. That was a big relief, then I could hang onto the boat when I came up for air.
In about 15 minutes the big volunteer fire dept rescue truck came up.
They had a big winch on the front. The unspooled the winch. I swam/waded back to shore, and I took the hook, and hooked it to the rear bumper. In a few minutes they dragged the car back into shallow water.
Once the roof of the car emerged, I could see the poor little five year old black boy, laying in the back seat. His skin was a gray/black color. Bad sign. I saw that the car was a four door! Had I known that, I would have opened a rear door and had him out much sooner.
I opened the door and grabbed the kid. I carried him the 50 feet to shore. I had told my partner to get a backup ambulance, so there were 3 Paramedics there to work the code.
They began a full code, while I sat down and tried to cough the gasoline fumes from my lungs. In five minutes they raced the kid to the hospital. My ER worked that code for 5 hours. There is a process called the Mammalian Diving Reflex which allows children who drown in very cold water to be revived after immersions of as long as 45 minutes, so my ER hoped they could save this kid. The MDR does not kick in on adults, does not work in warm water. Really, I think this water was not quite cold enough for the MDR to kick in. You ought to google up the MDR it is pretty interesting.
It didn't work, the little boy died.
Anyway, I can tell you that most cops and Paramedics are not going to risk their lives to save somebody, despite what you may see on your tv shows.
I was named Paramedic of the Year for that ordeal, I got a little brass plaque.0 -
Volunteer Paramedics?
Back in 1992 I was picked up by an ambulance....happened to be a fellow graduate that was the volunteer paramedic....said she couldn't find my pulse.
I KNOW it was my actions that got me out of danger....I would have died if I relied on someone else. If I would have gone unconsious in the ambulance.....she would have killed me. She was the moron of our class.
I can't swim and peer pressure pushed me to dive in water in New Mexico later on.....I can tell you this......When I hit the bottom I ran up out of the water faster than you can whistle Dixie..it was deeeeeep..and KNEW no one would save my stupid rear. TRUST NO ONE....don't waste breaths on cries for help.....Statistics says women outlive men....don't rely on them for help....it's statistics.[}:)]0 -
it's hard to say what the scenario was being the media has a way of twisting thing to suit whatever they want, but all of the above self preservation policies are good and all, sometimes a real hero has to risk their life in order to save one, and i do find the excuse of "not being trained" very lame, there are life saving heroes every day who is your average everyday joe who put their own life in danger to save another, although it does not always work out to the best that's why they are heroes
in this case it appears the paramedics where not alone in doing little to help, but that was not mentioned0 -
Well I am a retired firefighter of 22 years. I do know you do not react above your training or you will become a victim yourself. If you go beyond your training that has to be a personal decision. You can have the training and still not have the equipment, or have the equipment and not have the training. Either way the rescuer will probably die with the victim. Our mission statement reads: We will risk our lives a lot to save a savable life, we will risk our lives a little to save savable property, and we will not risk our lives to save un-savable property or an un-savable life. I am not a hero but I sure worked with a bunch of heroes.
P.S. there were 343 firefighters that died on 9/110 -
quote:Originally posted by dcloco
FIRST rule of responding to an emergency...
Do NOT become another emergency or a factor of the first emergency.
well said, after 10 years working as a life guard, more on the fire company rescue team this is the thing that is most drilled into everyones head.
also make note of one line in the story...
quote:Leinhauser says EMS workers do not have water rescue training.
EMS are trained in EMERGENCY MEDICAL TREATMENT not physical rescues!
i think a bit more attention should be paid to the THREE "FRIENDS"
who managed to get themselves out, two leaveing the scene, without any reguard for their remaining "friend" who was still entrapped!0 -
they will all sleep well............until they stand in front of their lord.... 0 -
quote:True heroes, they did their job and did it well.. Just like cops do their jobs ;)That's the porblems with Americans nowadays - they're always expecting someone else to be the hero.
It's real darned easy to wave your finger at someone for not dying to perform some "heroic" action, but let's see how often you do it.0 -
Allen Griggs....Good story, brother!!! Take care.[:D] 0 -
"WOW" Wolf,,I can't believe you even had the nerve to reply in the way you did. Being an R.N. for over 11 years I work closely with the police, firemen and paramedics on a daily basis, you stated "No value for human life", I would be willing to bet that if you called 911 right now that one of the so-called "Elite paramilitary brotherhood" would be the first one at your side to help you in your time of need!!! Think before you speak!!! 0 -
Good job Allen. Did the little guy make it? Sounds like he didnt but you never came out and said. 0 -
Tender Warrior: Welcome to the Gunbroker forums! Sincerely hope you decide to stay awhile, and continue to jump in to this discussion pool. It gets very interesting! Best to you, Joe 0 -
quote:But witnesses all said the same thing..."No one helped him. They just stared at him.
If all of these "witnesses" where there and saw them not going in then why didn't some of these concerned citizens jump in and save this guy?
How about the possibility of the Medics not being able to swim?
They did what they are trained to do.
They did what they where hired to do.
They did what they supposed to do.
They did not make the situation worse by doing something they are not equipped to do, nor trained for.
They are there to help if they can, not to get killed doing stupid stuff.0 -
Allen,.......what a similar story to mine! You had far worse conditions to deal with though.
I was a firefighter/EMT, with a short career, due to my own choosing.
We had a car flip over a bridge embankment one night around 2AM.
Same thing, we rolled up, people standing all over the place pointing.
Found out the occupants were still in the vehicle, and it was upside down in about the same depth as yours. I was lucky,.......Florida, and water temp about 75, it was October in S. Florida.
We had no water rescue training either, and yes the ones with it were enroute.
I had a lifeguard certification when I was a couple of years younger, so I did the strip, and rappelled off of the bridge railing, and hit the water.
We unfortunately had different outcomes. I got the door opened, and the 2 male occupants were up in the floorboard breathing the last of the air pocket. Pulled them out one at a time, and the wonderful watchers had made their way down to the canal bank at that point, so they helped get them the short distance to shore.
Both of them were drunk off their butts, and one was an IV drug user, who lied during the exam questioning. I had already bandaged up a huge gash on his forehead, and had his blood all over me bringing him to shore. He was a HepB carrier.
So you tried to save a child, and failed,.......I saved 2 wastes of skin, and went through 6 months of testing for HepB.
I also never got a little plaque!
I was joking about that,.....I took it upon myself to put "ME" in that position. They would have been dead though by the time the dive team arrived. We were rolling when they got there.
I understand what you did, and admire you very much for a much tougher attempt. Sorry it didn't work.[:(]
I only hope what I did may have given two messed up folks the impetus to maybe change at least one of their lives. Don't know whatever happened after they were released.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dcloco
FIRST rule of responding to an emergency...
Do NOT become another emergency or a factor of the first emergency.
+1 Don not become a victim yourself. EMS goes in and drowns also then all you have done is taken away the valuable EMS trained resource for that area and have to train another person in it. The loss of life is bad but there are times you have to say no.0 -
did any of you critics stop and THINK that maybe the medics just could not swim.i have been a fire fighter and emt since the age of 18 and there were some cases with all my training and skill that i just could not help the individual. have you ever held death in your arms? most likely not. dont judge others in that field till you have been in their shoes! 0 -
either ways its tragic, maybe the friends were comatosed by drugs and or alcohol. The EMS guys couldve just been representing krispy kreme... you never know
I think the way our emergency services are structured, implemented and financed are all wrong.0 -
quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
"pitch black conditions...murky water. And he says a man who's drowning will always have enough strength to drown you both. "
Reminds me of a guy named Teddy, at a place called Chapaquitic ... a long time ago.
I used to be a lifeguard, and learning what to do if a drowning person tries to get you in a death grab is known by every lifeguard. You take a deep breath, and swim straight for the bottom. They let go. Once they realize that they need to attempt to relax and let you take over, you pull them to safety.
I guess there may not have been anyone trained in water rescue available on scene, but if there was, they would have known what to do.0 -
Folks playing monday morning QB, is what it is.
Plenty of "regular" folks there that could have risked their lives.
A sad loss nonetheless!0 -
In the call that I described above, there were about 50 adults on the shore who watched that car roll into the pond, and then slowly drift out while it sank. These people saw the little boy pounding on the rear windshield, screaming. None of them did a thing.
All of the car doors were unlocked. Someone could have waded out into 4 feet of water, and opened the door and let the kid out, had they acted quickly.
How could you watch that little boy dying in that window and do nothing?
When the "paid rescuers" got there, I was the only one who went into the water. The 8 cops, and my partner, had the idea that since it was in the water, it was none of their business, it was the work of the fire dept. dive team.
Well that is fine, but waiting on the dive team meant certain death for that little boy. Of course he might have been dead already when we got there. Or, when we got there, he might have been clutching onto that cloth ceiling, gasping for air in that small air pocket, hoping someone would save him.
Hard to think about that call without crying.0 -
I wonder if a color issue was involved in the white girl running from the scene. 0 -
If anybody wants to volunteer to risk their life to save mine I won't try to talk them out of it, but I don't expect it.
Judging from the information provided, all these "witnesses" who were there when the EMTs got there had the same responsibility and obligation to go into the water the EMTs had. Legally, none. Morally, depends on the situation.0
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