C&R "not on list" rant
Well, I just got a reply from a seller that a gun at least 59 years old can't be shipped to my C&R because "it's not on the list." It's his gun to shove...er...sell as he wishes, but I sure wish such sellers would learn the rules and understand that I'd rather put $30 more in their pocket than into transfer fees. The BATF site itself states that the formal C&R list isn't all-inclusive. What's so hard to understand about those rules, especially regarding the 50-year thing? But, again, it's his gun, so whatever. Rant over for now.
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If it's 50 years old or older it qualifies. perod.
Now it may have other features that fall under NFA rules & regs, but it is still considered a C&R.0 -
Not exactly.
A MILITARY FIREARM which would otherwise be considered a C&R is REMOVED from the C&R category if it is not in "original military configuration". So, change the caliber, sporterize the stock, etc., & it can only be sent to an FFL.
Neal0 -
I am aware of those restrictions about changing the configuration. What if a original config. rifle is purchased by a C&R holder. How can a custom stock be fitted? Does he have to transfer it to his dealer then have it transfered back to himself? That sounds crazy but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the answer. 0 -
quote:cbxjeff Posted - 06/04/2007 : 6:31:54 PM
I am aware of those restrictions about changing the configuration. What if a original config. rifle is purchased by a C&R holder. How can a custom stock be fitted? Does he have to transfer it to his dealer then have it transfered back to himself? That sounds crazy but I wouldn't be surprised if that's the answer.
A C&R holder can do what ever he wants to it, he owns it, BUT if any changes made take it out of it's C&R status, it can not be sold as a C&R. You would either have to change it back, or transfer it through a dealer.
For example, YUGO SKS's are classified as C&R. You have a C&R so you buy one. You can do anything you want to it (thats legal of course), so you cut the gernade launcher off the front, put on a crappy removeable mag, etc. It is no longer considered a C&R, so you log it out of your bound book as "no longer C&R". If you decided later you wanted to sell it, it would have to go through a dealer since it is no longer considered a C&R.
Hope that answers your question.0 -
rossowmn, I hear ya, but there is not much you can do about ignorant dealers. Its good you emailed before bidding. Thats what I always do too.
I was at a large gun auction a couple weeks ago, and before they started, the auctioneer said that they don't accept C&R's because he didn't belive they were a real FFL. He then went on to say that he doubted that they even had anything that was considerd C&R. The funny thing is, 90% of what they were auctioning off was C&R. Lots of 03 Springfields, M1 Garands, early Winchesters, etc. I figured I didn't want to support them anyway if they are to ignorant and lazy to learn what is C&R. That and they charged a 10% buyers premium, so I left.
I thought about trying to inform him about C&R's, but figured it would be a losing battle. I know it's his business to run as he wants, and he is not required to accept a C&R's, but he lost my business and hopefully others because of his ignorant attitude.0 -
Originally posted by jnmiller75
rossowmn, I hear ya, but there is not much you can do about ignorant dealers. [end quote]
Thanks for your supportive words. What really frosts my barnacles is that not only do such sellers not recognize the C&R rules, they also usually refuse to be educated. When I get such replies as "not on list," I politely e-mail them a copy of the rules directly from the BATF website, with relevant sections highlighted. I'm sure rather than reading them and seeing they may be cutting off potential sales, they just get ticked off at how dare I try to tell THEM about the rules! Hmmppfff! To their credit, a few sellers over the years have seen the light and agreed to ship to a C&R, but most refuse to budge. Oh, well, their guns, so their rules, and their loss of higher bids.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nmyers
Not exactly.
A MILITARY FIREARM which would otherwise be considered a C&R is REMOVED from the C&R category if it is not in "original military configuration". So, change the caliber, sporterize the stock, etc., & it can only be sent to an FFL.
Neal
This is a big gray area. I see sporterized military firearms sold as C&Rs all the time. It would depend on when the modifications took place.0 -
I have to admit....I sometimes really get "iffy" about the rules on these transfers and I may run into one I might not do if it isn't plainly obvious it qualifies. Dealing with the ATF is no fun...and one transfer to turn into a nightmare isn't worth it. It isn't the dealer's fault AT ALL...blame the people who really are to blame....its the ATF/FBI you should be upset with. 0 -
maybe rather than canvasing the topic, why dont you be specific and tell us exactly what gun is in question? show it to us. then, we can pick it apart. you may not see something that we see that makes it ffl, not c&r.[;)]
his stubbornness may be justified.[:I]0 -
quote:Originally posted by bobski
maybe rather than canvasing the topic, why dont you be specific and tell us exactly what gun is in question? show it to us. then, we can pick it apart. you may not see something that we see that makes it ffl, not c&r.[;)]
his stubbornness may be justified.[:I]
The gun in question is a Tenite-stock Stevens Model .22/.410. All the gun guide books list the Stevens Model .22/.410 as last manufactured in 1949 or 1950. Anything made after 1950 was labeled the Savage Model 24. So this doesn't seem like a borderline case. The 50-year rule would seem to apply with room to spare. I have bought several of these Tenite guns (I think I have eight) via my C&R, which doesn't in itself prove they're legal C&Rs, but that certainly seems to be the impression that most sellers have. Regardless, there's absolutely no doubt that the Tenite Model .22/.410 wasn't manufactured after 1950, unless every gun guide is wrong. Thus, the 50-year rule applies -- except for sellers who have mistakenly decided that only those guns formally named on the C&R list are C&Rs, which the BATF itself says is not the correct interpretation of the C&R rules. But, as I said before, it's the seller's gun. If he decides the only way he will deliver it is to God by Pony Express, tightly packed in the pony's arse, that's absolutely his right, which I respect. But it will ultimately cost him higher bids.
(As a sidebar, it's also annoying when sellers say, "I'll only ship to an FFL." The C&R, of course, IS as much an "FFL" -- Federal Firearms License -- as any other, only with different restrictions than the dealer FFL (i.e., can't buy and sell commercially with the C&R). I wish sellers would say something like "only to dealer FFL" or "no C&R" to avoid hassles of interpreting what they really mean. But here I am ranting again. Sorry.)0 -
quote:It is no longer considered a C&R, so you log it out of your bound book as "no longer C&R". If you decided later you wanted to sell it, it would have to go through a dealer since it is no longer considered a C&R.
In many states it could still be sold privately in state, requiring no FFL.0 -
quote:A MILITARY FIREARM which would otherwise be considered a C&R is REMOVED from the C&R category if it is not in "original military configuration". So, change the caliber, sporterize the stock, etc., & it can only be sent to an FFL.
Read the C&R regs on and they are interpreted two different ways then call the BATF and you get two different answers.
Example: "An original configuration type Enfield MKIII #1 with no handguard is technically not in original configuration and not qualifying for C&R yet an original configuration Enfield MKIII #4 with a scope added is C&R elligible"
Go figure.
The bottom line I got from the BATF is that the receiver is what counts and any type of "illegal" modifications to the friearm.0 -
quote:He Dog
Advanced Member
19776 Posts
Posted - 06/05/2007 : 11:18:59 AM
quote:
It is no longer considered a C&R, so you log it out of your bound book as "no longer C&R". If you decided later you wanted to sell it, it would have to go through a dealer since it is no longer considered a C&R.
In many states it could still be sold privately in state, requiring no FFL.
He Dog, I know this, but was just trying to not muddy the water any further. Thanks.[:D]0 -
Thanks guys. I have a Swiss K-31 & Mosin that I have ordered laminated stocks. I don't want to get hit by the man. I don't mind never being able to transfer it to another C&R.
I'm relieved.0 -
Ok... how about when the BATFE said that ALL 1928 FULL AUTO THOMPSONS (including the West Hurley ones made in the 70s and 80s) were C&R due to their collectable nature and then changed their mind and said they made a mistake a few weeks later? How about that one... 0
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