An education if you please
I'm still fairly new to guns, rifles et al in general and would like an honest, straightforward and rational explanation as to what an AR or AK weapon actually is, what it costs, what is required to legally buy and own one, etc. Info as to caliber, various models, etc. would be appreciated. If I sound terribly naive about the subject, I fully admit that I am.
I hear and see a great deal about them here on GB but I know diddly as to the weapon itself or anything else about it other than that a lot of folks refer to them as "assault rifles" which, in turn, raises the hackles of many gun owners.
As always, much appreciated if you can "enlighten" this newbie.
I hear and see a great deal about them here on GB but I know diddly as to the weapon itself or anything else about it other than that a lot of folks refer to them as "assault rifles" which, in turn, raises the hackles of many gun owners.
As always, much appreciated if you can "enlighten" this newbie.
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Type in either one (AR or AK) over on the auction side.
Look at the pics, read the description.
Then come back with questions you might have. [:D]0 -
I wish DWS was here to give a good explanation. 0 -
For starters:
1. Is there such a thing as one complete out-of-the-box ready-to-load-and-fire model or does it have to be assembled from various components, i.e. I hear about upper, lower, receiver, etc.?
2. What is the caliber of the more common AR/AK rifle or does it vary by make, model, country of manufacture, etc.?
3. Am I correct in that AR and AK are the same weapon in basic principle but differ in their original origins? Country? Time period?
4. If there actually is an out-of-the-box complete base model to look at, what is the arm's length cost of one WITHOUT any accessories other than those that are absolutely necessary and functionally required to shoot it?0 -
quote:Originally posted by Slow_Hand
For starters:
1. Is there such a thing as one complete out-of-the-box ready-to-load-and-fire model or does it have to be assembled from various components, i.e. I hear about upper, lower, receiver, etc.?
2. What is the caliber of the more common AR/AK rifle or does it vary by make, model, country of manufacture, etc.?
3. Am I correct in that AR and AK are the same weapon in basic principle but differ in their original origins? Country? Time period?
4. If there actually is an out-of-the-box complete base model to look at, what is the arm's length cost of one WITHOUT any accessories other than those that are absolutely necessary and functionally required to shoot it?
I'm a bit dumb about this myself, so I'll happily hear corrections to my 'info.' But here's what I think I know.
1. You can buy ready-to-go AR's and AK's. They're just semi-auto rifles and so are nothing special. The AR's are US-made and so come with no restrictions. The AK's typically are foreign-built and have to have a certain number of US-made parts to be legal. That's why AK kits are so popular, but you still can buy ready-to-go AK rifles in the US. Whether an AR or an AK, you can save some bucks by buying a kit and putting it together yourself.
2. Several calibers are available for both guns. I think the AR usually comes in a .223, and the AK usually comes in 7.62 x 39.
3. Isn't this funny? I know more about the AK than the AR. I don't think they're the same basic design, but I don't know much about rifle design. The AK-47 was Sergei Kalashnikov's design of 1947 (Automatic-Kalashnikov-47, or some translation thereof). See Polite Psycho's tagline for a photo of Mr. Kalashnikov himself. I don't know much about the AR (Automatic Rifle?). The AR has tighter tolerances than the AK and so is more accurate than the AK, but the AK is reputed to be a gun that you can bury in the mud for a year and then pull it out and reasonably expect it to function. People do not make this claim about the AR.
It's a gun-unfriendly film but still a good ride: watch Lord of War. (You kind of have to like Nick Cage to enjoy this one.)
4. I don't know properly. I think the AK's can be had for anywhere from $350 to over $1000, and the AR's from about $750 to over $1000. There are other members on this board who will tell you which AK or which AR is best, but I don't know. In AK, I like the idea of an underfolding stock, or an all-wood stock, but that's just me. I'll probably get the underfolder first, and then the wood stock.
I hope this helps!
Edit: I'm just jumping in here in hopes that other members will confirm what I think I know and correct me where I'm wrong.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Slow_Hand
For starters:
1. Is there such a thing as one complete out-of-the-box ready-to-load-and-fire model or does it have to be assembled from various components, i.e. I hear about upper, lower, receiver, etc.?
2. What is the caliber of the more common AR/AK rifle or does it vary by make, model, country of manufacture, etc.?
3. Am I correct in that AR and AK are the same weapon in basic principle but differ in their original origins? Country? Time period?
4. If there actually is an out-of-the-box complete base model to look at, what is the arm's length cost of one WITHOUT any accessories other than those that are absolutely necessary and functionally required to shoot it?
To add to the previous replies:
1. Both can be bought fully assembled and functional. The lower receiver of an AR is the part that is considered a firearm. The upper receiver consists primarily of the bolt, barrel, handguards and sights. On an AK there isn't an upper and lower, but just a receiver.
2. The most common caliber of an AR is .223 Rem or 5.56 mm
The most common caliber of an AK is 7.62X39 mm
There are quite a few variants in different calibers, but more in the AR line, all the way up to .50BMG. Because of the design, changing caliber is often as simple as changing the upper reciever, which consists of one screw, and one push pin (typically).
3. The AR and AK are very different in their designs and operation. The AR line was developed in the US and is/was used by many of the free countries of the world, and the AK line was developed in the Soviet Union and is/was used by the majority of the communists and dictatorships.
4. the lower end AK's tend to run around $300, while the lower end AR's tend to be around $700. As was previosly mentioned, it is generally cheaper to build it yourself. If building an AK, make sure that you use quality parts, as some of them are prone to a condition called "trigger-slap" which is both painful to the shooter, and damaging to the rifle.
Most people generally feel that the AK design is more robust, but not as accurate as the AR. When comparing the two side by side, GENERALLY the differences in quality and worksmanship are pretty clear. There are a lot of shoddy looking AK's out there, but very few shoddy looking AR's.
Both are fine shooting rifles. It just depends on what you are looking for it to do. You can make an AR that will drill tacks at 500 yards. I haven't seen too many people that are able to do that with an AK.0 -
Here are a couple of shots to look at the differences
AK's
AR's0 -
quote:Originally posted by dcinffxva
Here are a couple of shots to look at the differences
[snip]
Sweet. Thanks for the pix and the extra info. I'm jealous of your several AR and AK's!0 -
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
Type in either one (AR or AK) over on the auction side.
Look at the pics, read the description.
Then come back with questions you might have. [:D]
Or use the search function here on the forums.0 -
or just go buy a cheap one and get started. For you slow_hand I recommend an AR chambered in .44 magnum. Go along great with that Dirty Hairy gun you keep in the sock drawer. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
or just go buy a cheap one and get started. For you slow_hand I recommend an AR chambered in .44 magnum. Go along great with that Dirty Hairy gun you keep in the sock drawer.
Since I don't keep one in my sock drawer I'm guessing that you're just funnin' with me here on the caliber - right?[;)]0 -
Legality to own, your going to have to check your own State and Local laws to see if you can get them.
Looking into what optics you may eventually want to add later may affect you initial choice in form of rifle you order. Think if you will ever want to add a scope/aimpoint etc.
Ar's you can add all sorts if optics ( just about anywhere on the upper) but starting out with a flat top model gives you more options later. look at the 3rd and 4th pictures that dcinffxva posted they have permanently attached handles. the 5th image has a flat top but the front sight is a standard sight. You can also order an AR with a front sight flat top mount (for the lack of better words.) You can also get a carry handle that will attach on a flat top. You can easily spend as much on iron sights, aimpoints, scopes, Lasers, flashlights, and mounts, trick bolt on attachments for an AR as you bought the rifle for. Then there's all the stock and for-arm's you can get for them........
Ak's you can attach optics in about 3 ways, the top cover (very prone to movement and re-zeroing is terrible, replace the front gas tube (a bit more stable) or a side mount plate on the receiver (the most stable).
You will find Ar's to be more accurate.
The image above shows an M-4 setup with a flat top and fixed standard front sight along with a bayonet mount and sling swivel.
Then some Various scope and iron sight attachments along with a carry handle/ rear sight.
The detached upper is a .50 beowulf with flat top rails for both the front and rear sight It also has a small rail on the hand-guard to attach other things.
These are just a few things to think about.
I own both AR's and Ak's and it's hard to just try to pick one over the other. Each has its attractions. Ar's the accuracy and multitude of options and calibers. The Ak for simplicity of design, and crud and abuse they can take (the timex of the gun world).0 -
Slow Hand, here some decent info and history on both the AR and AK. They are quick reads with good pics. Both links talk abut the military version of each gun. The civilian versions (what we all have been showing above are semi-auto instead of select fire.) Both can be bought whole or pieced together. The average price for an AK usually runs around $450, while the average price for an AR runs around $750, both complete guns. Of course there are cheaper and more expensive ones of each out there.
AR:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm
AK:
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as01-e.htm
Ben0 -
Well, I stopped into a large gun store toady and walked right up the area where all of these AR's are displayed. Man 'o' man did my head start to spin from the prices, models, features, accessories, etc.!!!!
The cheapest I saw was $899!!!! And the guy wasn't all that thrilled with it at that price. He started spouting off a whole lot of options and add-ons and it was at that point that I lost any interest I might have once had. Too complicated for a rank newbie like me.
Thanks to all of you who helped me out and gave me insight and advice.
Much appreciated.0 -
By the way, when referring to accurate rifles, niether one is.
D.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Slow_Hand
Well, I stopped into a large gun store toady and walked right up the area where all of these AR's are displayed. Man 'o' man did my head start to spin from the prices, models, features, accessories, etc.!!!!
The cheapest I saw was $899!!!! And the guy wasn't all that thrilled with it at that price. He started spouting off a whole lot of options and add-ons and it was at that point that I lost any interest I might have once had. Too complicated for a rank newbie like me.
Thanks to all of you who helped me out and gave me insight and advice.
Much appreciated.
Don't get all that discouraged. Post what your intentions for this/these rifles are, i.e targets, varmints, SHTF etc. and listen to some of the suggestions you will get, and pick the ones that suit your needs.
If you have $500-$600 to spend right now, I would suggest that you pick up an AK, like one of the Romanian guns out there now for around $300-$350, and also pick up an AR-15 lower receiver. The lowers run around $125.00 stripped, and around $275.00 complete. If there is new gun control legislation, then you already have the parts that will be hard to get down the line. You can always build the AR up later.0 -
Here's a bit of education.
The term assault rifle is meaningless. It was designed to raise the heckles of the anti-gunners. It is one of the things that got Zumbo in trouble.
It is a made-up term by gun-grabbers that has no meaning other than to gain sympathy for their cause.
Use of this term should be discouraged. If someone uses it, ask them what it means EXACTLY. When they can't answer, you should tell them that they shouldn't use a term that they can't define.0 -
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D.0 -
Like dcinffxva said.
Don't get discouraged.
What are you going to use it for?
These guns can be LOTS of fun.
The wife doesn't care for high power rifles or shotguns.
She has a blast (literally) when we go shoot any of the AR, AK, or SKS.0 -
quote:Originally posted by pickenup
Like dcinffxva said.
Don't get discouraged.
What are you going to use it for?
These guns can be LOTS of fun.
The wife doesn't care for high power rifles or shotguns.
She has a blast (literally) when we go shoot any of the AR, AK, or SKS.
Actually, I wasn't looking to buy one - at least not in the immediate future - but rather I was looking to learn more about them so that I could be quasi-intelligent about a discussion of them, especially if any future bans on them are being suggested or imminent.
You have to understand that for a relative newbie who much knows less than most of you about guns in general, a little good knowledge on such an important issue may prove itself beneficial for me and essential for opposing any new legislation.0 -
the AR was invented by a man named Eugene Stoner. The AK was invented by a man named Mickail (sp) Kalisnikov. SOMEBODY on this forum has a photo in their signature of each man holding each others rifle. I would like to copy it. thanks! 0
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