Question for Vietnam era soldiers\marines
I have aquired through trade an original Colt USGI m16 upper. It is one of the early models with no forward assist. The previous owner had it fitted to an A2 style lower. I wish to aquire a lower that will correclty represent this rifle as originally fielded. NoDakSpud makes replicas of the old style lowers: http://www.nodakspud.com/AR Lowers.htm Which of these would be correct for an early M16 or would it be XM16?
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Full auto ??
Doug0 -
Nope, semi only. But the upper is all USGI, and far as I can tell an early M16 upper. I could be wrong. I default to the expertise of the AR guys on this forum. 0 -
Wish I could help.
Doug0 -
Could be AR 15, I dont recall them haveing a forward assist either..check em out at this site.
http://world.guns.ru/assault/as18-e.htm0 -
I was a late second place participant in the Southeast Asia war games, USMC. All the M16s I encountered were A1s and did have forward assists, some with birdcage flash surpressors and some with the 3 prong flash supressors. Made by various manufacturers, Hydramatic Divison of GM, Colt, H & R and maybe som eothers. Some folks called them Matell toys cause some alledgedly were made by Matell but I do not remember ever seeing one. The one I carried was a GM with a 3 prong flash surpessor, Safety had 3 positions, safe, semi and auto, no 3 shot burst. I cannot remember it ever jamming, did clean it daily, sometimes more often. Sgt Diaz made sure we kept them clean, mean little SOB, probably saved more than one life. Most of our magazines were 20 rounders, we loaded them with 18. Carried a lot of them and a lot of water. Never was a fan of how you adjusted the sights, a nail or a cartridge, the A2 was a lot better.
If I were to build one from scratch, I'd probably go with an A1 lower (because of the auto feature) and an A2 upper.
Good luck on your project. Can tell for sure from your photo that you have a recent pistol grip. I'm sure there are folks a whole lot more knowledgeable on these things than I am but think that might be a XM16 upper.
How do you know this upper was made by Colt? If my fading memory serves me right, the maker had their trademark or logo on the lower receiver.0 -
I am not a vet, but -
This looks like the one to me.
NDS-601 "Retro" lower receiver.
The early M16's had a slab side without a mag release protector as you see on the others...
My two early model Colt AR SP1's have no forward assists and the "slab side" configuration lower.0 -
USAF was the first branch of our military to adopt the AR platform and were the only branch that issued M-16's (non-forward assist). All others first of this type were M-16A1's (forward assist).
What makes you say this was an M16 upper instead of an AR15?0 -
I doubt what you have is "an original Colt USGI m16 upper", unless it is very early Air Force ('62 era) issue, which also had a three-prong flash hider and no mag fence. I saw these as late as '65, carried by Air Force AP's at Danang. Army and Marine Corps still had M14s at the time, and when I returned in '67, Army and Marine Corps had the M16A1 (forward assist and mag fence). 0 -
The original M16 was adopted bt the Air Force in the early 60's, prior to "offical" US involvment in South Vietnam. It was made by Colt.
It was a slab sided rifle with no foward assist or no "fence" around the mag release. It had a 3 prong flash supressor, with no trapdoor in the buttstock for a cleaning kit.
All the modifications the the original M16 were requested by the Army..the foward bolt assist, the fence around the mag release, the "birdcage" flash supressor replaced the 3 prong one, that was the M16A1. The final modification was the addition of a trapdoor in the buttstock for the cleaning kit.
During the Vietnam War, Colt went on strike. To prevent a shortage of the rifle, the goverment went to secondary sources, that being Harrington & Richardson, and the Hydramatic Divison of General Motors. Mattel never made any M16A1 rifles.
ALl this info I got from reading the book "The Black Rifle" by R. Blake Edwards. Great book about the M160 -
Do you need an adapter screw to put your upper to your lower?
A real USGI M16 upper (no foward bolt assist) will work with any mil-spec push pim AR type lower.
A SP1 AR15 upper would need the adapter screw since the hole sizes for the SP1 upper and a mil-spec lower are different0 -
quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
I doubt what you have is "an original Colt USGI m16 upper", unless it is very early Air Force ('62 era) issue, which also had a three-prong flash hider and no mag fence. I saw these as late as '65, carried by Air Force AP's at Danang. Army and Marine Corps still had M14s at the time, and when I returned in '67, Army and Marine Corps had the M16A1 (forward assist and mag fence).
Mag fence!
Thanks, Rob, I couldn't remember the term and it was driving me crazy.
PAT, which flash hider does the upper have? Birdcage or three prong?0 -
the mag fence in on the lower....which wouldn't apply to the upper in question here 0 -
quote:Originally posted by PBJloaf
the mag fence in on the lower....which wouldn't apply to the upper in question here
It would very much apply, as an upper without forward assist would have a slab-side lower and a three-prong flash hider.0 -
yep... I'd have to concur. what they call "slick side" or the XM16E1.
I like their NDS-32 upper. too bad it doesn't have a fwd assist.0 -
quote:Originally posted by mateomasfeo
PAT, which flash hider does the upper have? Birdcage or three prong?
If it's not three-prong, it's not all original GI.0 -
quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
quote:Originally posted by PBJloaf
the mag fence in on the lower....which wouldn't apply to the upper in question here
It would very much apply, as an upper without forward assist would have a slab-side lower and a three-prong flash hider.
the later USAF rifles still had no foward assist, yet they had the mag fence lower, the birdcage flash hider, and the buttstock trap door, yet it was still call the M16.
What I was getting at is that the mag fence was NOT on the upper.
I should have phrased tha better in my post0 -
quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
quote:Originally posted by mateomasfeo
PAT, which flash hider does the upper have? Birdcage or three prong?
If it's not three-prong, it's not all original GI.
Bingo.0 -
Magazine release fence, either partial or full, is obvious. The purist (as you will see in the link below) will immediately focus attention on the front pivot pin boss and the receiver immediately rearward of the rear take-down pin to check for the "correctness" of an authentic period M16/M16A1/XM177, etc. It's a good read, and a good reference. Best, Joe
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=2942640 -
quote:Originally posted by PBJloaf
the later USAF rifles still had no foward assist, yet they had the mag fence lower, the birdcage flash hider, and the buttstock trap door, yet it was still call the M16.
I have never seen this. Do you have a reference source or a pic contemporary to the time? Thx.0 -
quote:Originally posted by givette
Magazine release fence, either partial or full, is obvious. The purist (as you will see in the link below) will immediately focus attention on the front pivot pin boss and the receiver immediately rearward of the rear take-down pin to check for the "correctness" of an authentic period M16/M16A1/XM177, etc. It's a good read, and a good reference. Best, Joe
http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=123&t=294264
Thanks for the link GIVETTE, very informative...0 -
DWS -
I don't have a scanner to pull this up from a tech manual I have..but this is circa late 1980's.
My best friend was an Air Police Sergeant in the late 80's -early 90's in the USAF. He had the original M16 (no FBA) but with the fence around the mag Stateside at a SAC base...when they deployed to Desert Shield/Storm they were issued M16A2's...and when they came back to the US they turned them in and got back the old M16's
IIRC Colt called this a Model 614...same as the M16A1 but no FBA0 -
quote:Originally posted by DancesWithSheep
quote:Originally posted by PBJloaf
the later USAF rifles still had no foward assist, yet they had the mag fence lower, the birdcage flash hider, and the buttstock trap door, yet it was still call the M16.
I have never seen this. Do you have a reference source or a pic contemporary to the time? Thx.
I can back him up on this. They weren't completely phased out until the 80's.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
I can back him up on this. They weren't completely phased out until the 80's.
I don't doubt it; I would just like to see a picture. More to the point: The only "replica" the OP could build with his upper would be the Air Force model you describe, or an early 60's Air Force M16. From the title of the thread, I do not think this is what he was going for.0
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