Federal Protection services
Had to take the miss's over to the Immigration office, to start out the guy came out and said we had to leave someone with the dog, even thou the windows were down, Next when you go in the building no knifes or guns. does any one have a credit card companion, its a blade, compass, bottle opener, tweezers, tooth pick, its been in my wallet for 3 yrs, he said youve been warned, its mine now. I ask if he could take the blade, and give me the rest, no its mine now. So I went out side, turned on a dvd, the wife came out to get her glasses, she wanted me back inside. I walked with her back to the door, he refused to let me in, he said it was because of what I have on my hip. I wear my holster, and its covered by a large columbia summer shirt. I still dont know how he saw it. I ask to talk to his supervisor, he said there are no supervisors here, if I wanted to write a complain, I ask for his name, and badge his comment was "friend you want to push I will get you arrested, I ask for what.
no answer, I turned to go back to the truck, he starts yelling
sir do you have a weapon in your truck, he does this 5 times.
when I get to my truck, I pull my clip board out and start writting down the chain of events, I was almost finished, when two secert service agents walk up and want to know whats happening, I was calm, still writing, never looked up, after I finished I ask them for his name. He came back out about 5 minutes later, I had the name, Now I spent 10 hours, finally got in touch with the guy in charge, I am going back over thrusday to get my tool back.
I filed complaints with department of homeland security, customs and border protection, uscis immigration office, officer in charge at the facility, even called the govener. Looks like this jackass is lossing his job. he was totally unprofessional, rude, and his threat was uncalled for.
no answer, I turned to go back to the truck, he starts yelling
sir do you have a weapon in your truck, he does this 5 times.
when I get to my truck, I pull my clip board out and start writting down the chain of events, I was almost finished, when two secert service agents walk up and want to know whats happening, I was calm, still writing, never looked up, after I finished I ask them for his name. He came back out about 5 minutes later, I had the name, Now I spent 10 hours, finally got in touch with the guy in charge, I am going back over thrusday to get my tool back.
I filed complaints with department of homeland security, customs and border protection, uscis immigration office, officer in charge at the facility, even called the govener. Looks like this jackass is lossing his job. he was totally unprofessional, rude, and his threat was uncalled for.
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I had to throw away a P38 that was attached to my key chain (can opener, not the gun) when my wife and I saw President Bush last October. It had sentimental value because it was given to me by a good friend's grandpa that was a Marine in WW2. He gave it to me while I was in high school (22 years ago) and had always carried it. The Secret Service was cool but firm and I didn't press the issue being that it was the President's detail. I rooted thru the trash on the way out but couldn't find it. Good for you for sticking up for common sense and common decency. 0 -
quote:"friend you want to push I will get you arrested"
Hey - at least you got warned - no question in my mind - push it
and you may find yourself in a would of felonious hurt - certainly
won't help your wife, either.
Wise up - these aren't perfect times in a perfect world.
I think you were already given a break - suck it up - OR - take on
Home Security - your choice tough guy.
[8D]0 -
so just what would be the charges? ask to talk to a supervisor, because he refused entry, because I had\ a holster.
I thought you were smarter than that Zip. Its seems his boss thinks he was over the top too.
think before you type, I not a tough guy, just a wee bit smarter
the a contract cop wannabe0 -
Kimbercolt: I don't know if you are smarter than you think I am - or not.
Doesn't really matter - I don't know or even care (sorry) IF you are 'RIGHT!'
I've had a LOT of experiences - and what I haven't seen close up and personal
I've found out by talking to others who have. Sorry if this sounds like a lecture -
just some well based advice, my friend.
Sorry about the "tough guy" comment - unwarranted and I apologise.
There is something in bureaucracies - especially law enforcement - (really)
especially in Federal Law Enforcement - it's the 'CYA (reality) System.'
He's got a career to watch out for - he and HIS boss -on the other hand, is you.
He (and his boss) probably don't give a rip about your wife ... and especially you.
YOU are an 'outsider and YOU (and your wife) are extremely expendable. In just
court appeals and lawyers, you can be ruined pretty quickly and efficiently by them.
They know it - and you probably don't. I think you have NO idea what they can do
you if you really want to 'push it.'
My advice - I wouldn't push it - it really doesn't matter if you are right, or not - it's
CYA .... and in the crunch ... you're toast. It's just a matter if you're burned or just well
toasted, toast.
If you do decide to 'push it further' keep us up on your progress.
Reminds me of those two guys in NYC who COULDN'T POSSIBLY HAVE MURDERED A GUY
- because they (detectives) withheld evidence - the two guys got 20 - 30 years - it took TWO OTHER DETECTIVES - who finally ended up resigning from the force (because they had proven the truth) - and 12 YEARS - to get those guys out of prison. One was a Dominican Republic citizen - he was deported without a hearing EVEN THOUGH IN THE END IT WAS ABSOLUTELY PROVEN HE WAS NOT THERE, DIDN'T DO IT, ETC!
Wanna hear the kicker? The American guy is due to be RETRIED NEXT YEAR FOR MURDER - SAME MURDER that he was 'pardoned' for! It was a Nightline, I believe
Anyway, I've seen a goodly number of citizens go down - hard - who were 'right' but
couldn't fight the CYA system.
Just my .02?
Good luck!
[8D]0 -
oh yes I do, But I also know you better have a damn good excuse before you threaten someone. His boss was in agreement with me,
just what is wrong with my holster, with no gun in it. I put it one my belt when I put my pants one. He said he saw my holster when I got out of my truck. He refused entry, because I had a holster on, now if you think he was right, just where can he refernce wearing a holster. The special agent in charge called me this afternoon, the contractor was made to right an apoligie, he lost his cushy job, because I had witeness, if you ask a police officer for his name and badge number, will he tghreaten with a statement, if you push this youll be unbder arrest. Hell no he wont, there is a system, he knew he was wrong when he did it, why do you think he threaten me.
The agents laughed when I told them what he did, seems like he has had a chip on his shoulder for a long time. Now he's got a bigger one. fired for reason. the agent in charge of the federal protection service said they had numerous complaints against him.
I know quite abit of what can and cant be done, this wantabee fed is gone. I dont feel sorry. the sob better be right, when you start yelling at a citizen, and all I did was ask to see the supervisor, then I wanted his name. think just how much of an ass he was.0 -
quote:His boss was in agreement with me, just what is wrong with my holster, with no gun in it.
IF his boss didn't put his opinion in writing? - and doubt he did - I'm sorry, I just don't believe that it's happening the way you've described it. HOWEVER, if you say that he's being fired ... I'm not there ... so I'll just say, that's nice.
Nothing personal, but I think you may be in for some really interesting experiences.
Keep us informed. Good luck with your wife's paperwork.0 -
her alien card was reissued with a expiration date of 10 yrs.
as for him being fired, I do imagine with 9 letters. I have found out my dealing with the military/gov. you need witness's, and have to send out alot of letters. when I got off the phone with the dir of federal protection services in jax, it took 2 days from the delivery of the first complanit paperwork that I had agents investigating, 3 more days was the letter from the director, he called the same day I got response from them. so yea I believe the director. when he returned my credit card companion, he apologized to me, & my wife. I also got a call from the jacksonville office of uscis. a contract security guard has along way making a federal case when he the one acting like an ass. If you want I still have the ditidal wav file, I always have my camera/voice recorder.
cc; President Bush
cc: Vice President cheney
cc: dir of homeland security
cc: dir of uscis
cc: dir of CBP
cc: Officer in charge uscis jacksonville Branch
cc: rep andrew Crenshaw
cc: senator nelson/martinez
cc: Gov Crist0 -
Sounds like you were treated disrespectfully. Here in KS/MO citizen would be told to take the knife, scissors, pepper spray, etc. back to their vehicle. If they have no vehicle (dropped off by friend, etc) they are told to take it back outside and throw it away. (except for guns. If gun with CCW, then take it back to vehicle, if no CCW then go to jail). Sometimes citizen can just take it back outside, hide it under a bush and pick it up later. 0 -
I am somewhat disappointed you were not tasered. 0 -
OK - I believe you ... and you MIGHT be in store for some really interesting times.
[:D]0 -
Good job, kimbercolt. He was being an ass. He got everything he deserved imo.
Ben0 -
Surprised you got it back, because in all probablity you were screwed. Sounds as if someone higher up with the authority to over-ride written procedures decided to practice good PR.
Gov't or military SOP is that before you reach a security checkpoint there are warning signs posted stating, "Now entering..." followed by language stating all persons/vehicles entering are subject to search, possibly describing items prohibited and citing statutes that authorize this. It might not seem apparent but the property line is actually where these warning signs are posted and your decision to pass after receiving this notification is your consent to search. Once you actually reach the checkpoint you have no choice and any prohibited items can legally be seized because you're standing well within the controlled property. A refusal of search at this point is probable cause to be detained.
This might seem big brotherish, but it's a wise move from a security standpoint. The idea is that if someone approaches a checkpoint but turns and runs after seeing searches/screenings being conducted they can be detained and searched to identify a possible attempted security breach.
The important thing is to never pass a warning sign on gov't or military property without reading closely...and also don't forget you have an edged weapon in your pocket.
Don't mistake that anything I'm saying is to justify the "personal skills" of the guard when dealing with your empty holster. I'm just stating some of the technicalities involved.0 -
(Yeah - this guy just doesn't get it - but that's OK - needs some
more life experience - and speaking of AHs ... if you ain't been
part of it you haven't a clue. Bottom line - Home Security can do
any ole GD thing it want to do with/to you - a civilian court has
no jurisdiction (they are FEDERAL) UNLESS THEY say it does. Prove
me wrong - should be easy to do.
Said you had a pdf? I'd like to see it.... otherwise, dream on.[:D])0 -
I know lets all become Sheeple. Roll over, sit up, beg, now you may proceed. 0 -
quote:Da-Tank:
I know lets all become Sheeple. Roll over, sit up, beg, now you may proceed.
If you substitute 'bend over' for one of the three phrases above, I think you'll be closer
the truth. Google/Dogpile 'Homeland Security abuses' /or a similar phrase ... allow yourself
a long time to read - doubt you'll even get through the first 100 - and then tell me how much 'influence' you (think you) have.
This discussion was silly right out of the gate! Pretty much like getting sympathy from the
IRS, FBI or CIA. They are all good government agencies, mind you, but if you cross the wrong
person ... God have mercy on your soul.
The ONLY reason I'm continuing - and this is my last post on the subject/unless there really is a pdf - this discussion is because I truly feel sorry for any younger members here who are all puffed up in self-righteousness ... believing they are on a holy mission to transform the way something, so potentially dangerous to their future. If, and when, you start messing with the Feds - I've already discussed it to death - it may be irreversible - unless you have lots and lots of $$$ and lots and lots of time to take off work. Your money goes first - followed quickly by your job, often followed by your friends, and lastly family. Seen it - and don't ever want to live it or see it again - although, I'd wager it happens every day - probably (way ) more than once.
I'd rather waltz through a mine field than learn the hard way.0 -
quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
quote:Da-Tank:
I know lets all become Sheeple. Roll over, sit up, beg, now you may proceed.
If you substitute 'bend over' for one of the three phrases above, I think you'll be closer
the truth. Google/Dogpile 'Homeland Security abuses' /or a similar phrase ... allow yourself
a long time to read - doubt you'll even get through the first 100 - and then tell me how much 'influence' you (think you) have.
This discussion was silly right out of the gate! Pretty much like getting sympathy from the
IRS, FBI or CIA. They are all good government agencies, mind you, but if you cross the wrong
person ... God have mercy on your soul.
And that is exactly why they need to change. The goverment is over stepping its bounds and things need to happen to change the bull that has been allowed.0 -
Kimbercolt-Out of curiosity, how did the US Treasury Dept. get involved in all of this?
Not trying to be an azz, just wondering why the Secret Service was called to contact you in the parking lot.0 -
because the clown was yelling at me, "do you have a gun in your truck"
I imagine they tried to call the sheriff, because I have a ccw, they told them to take a hike. secert service has a office in the building. when they saw I had a ccw, they supplied me with the security guards name. my wife came out about an hour later with her new alien card. I was laying down in the back of my truck, I had finished my letter of events, reading a book. My wife got the statement from 5 people that were right by the door with her.
The director of federal protection services, gave me the credit card companion back, he said something as simple as this, the guard should have used cs. zip most people that know me, know I dont start crap, but I wont lie down either. I will get brownie scanner to scan the letter. enjoy[:D]0 -
Where is your wife from Kimbercolt? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
This might seem big brotherish, but it's a wise move from a security standpoint. The idea is that if someone approaches a checkpoint but turns and runs after seeing searches/screenings being conducted they can be detained and searched to identify a possible attempted security breach.
That IS big brotherish.[}:)]
The purpose of those signs is to let a person know that by attempting to enter they forfeit their rights to privacy, and are subject to search without probable cause, or warrant.
If the person decides that he/she does not want to forfeit his/her rights to privacy, he/she has the constitutional right to turn around, and walk away, and at that point you have to have probable cause, or a warrant to search them. Refusal to walk through a security check is not probable cause.
I suspect you already knew that.
Ben0 -
The officer was right, you should have never tried to take a weapon into a federal facility unless you are federally trained like I am. I take the firearms certification twice a year to carry my piece in a federal office. But then I am highly skilled in what I do for the north american mall protective services. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by fishermanben
That IS big brotherish.[}:)]
The purpose of those signs is to let a person know that by attempting to enter they forfeit their rights to privacy, and are subject to search without probable cause, or warrant.
If the person decides that he/she does not want to forfeit his/her rights to privacy, he/she has the constitutional right to turn around, and walk away, and at that point you have to have probable cause, or a warrant to search them. Refusal to walk through a security check is not probable cause.
I suspect you already knew that.
Ben
So you're saying...A man of middle eastern appearance approaches a security checkpoint, the weather's warm but he's wearing a bulky coat. He has a red sash tied around his head, he's mumbling "Allah Ahkbar" repeatedly and he's sweating profusely. When he's asked to step through the metal detector he turns and runs. By your statements you'd take no action because he's merely exercising his constitutional rights.
If you ever go to work supplying security anywhere, let me know so I can avoid it.[:D]
You're walking a very fine constitutional line anytime you try to secure a publicly owned building. I agree that any man who gives up freedom for security deserves neither, but suicide attacks are a new issue that we as a society are still trying to figure out how to minimize.
It's far from the way I wish things were, but posting of warning signs well before people get near weapons checkpoints at these publicly owned buildings is about as reasonable as it gets right now.
If your thinking is that our new and more oppressive government has taken away your right to enter these buildings freely, these procedures are actually nothing new. Federal buildings have had security checkpoints since long before GWB was elected or Dept. of Homeland Security was created. Except in cases of emergency, even uniformed cops have been barred from entering with a firearm.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Txs
quote:Originally posted by fishermanben
That IS big brotherish.[}:)]
The purpose of those signs is to let a person know that by attempting to enter they forfeit their rights to privacy, and are subject to search without probable cause, or warrant.
If the person decides that he/she does not want to forfeit his/her rights to privacy, he/she has the constitutional right to turn around, and walk away, and at that point you have to have probable cause, or a warrant to search them. Refusal to walk through a security check is not probable cause.
I suspect you already knew that.
Ben
So you're saying...A man of middle eastern appearance approaches a security checkpoint, the weather's warm but he's wearing a bulky coat. He has a red sash tied around his head, he's mumbling "Allah Ahkbar" repeatedly and he's sweating profusely. When he's asked to step through the metal detector he turns and runs. By your statements you'd take no action because he's merely exercising his constitutional rights.
If you ever go to work supplying security anywhere, let me know so I can avoid it.[:D]
You're walking a very fine constitutional line anytime you try to secure a publicly owned building. I agree that any man who gives up freedom for security deserves neither, but suicide attacks are a new issue that we as a society are still trying to figure out how to minimize.
It's far from the way I wish things were, but posting of warning signs well before people get near weapons checkpoints at these publicly owned buildings is about as reasonable as it gets right now.
If your thinking is that our new and more oppressive government has taken away your right to enter these buildings freely, these procedures are actually nothing new. Federal buildings have had security checkpoints since long before GWB was elected or Dept. of Homeland Security was created. Except in cases of emergency, even uniformed cops have been barred from entering with a firearm.
No, I'm all for it at all federal buildings, and all airports. I also support it on private property. But refusing to allow someone to search you as a condition of entry is never a reason in itself to search a person.
Security guard: "Hey if you want to come in here you have to let us search you."
Citizen: "Fine, I don't want to come in there."
Security guard: "HA! You FAIL! We are going to search you anyway because you not wanting us to search you proves that you are terrorist!"
It's against the constitution. Plain and simple.
I also believe that it is in these times of mass public paranoia that we must guard are rights even stronger.
Ben0 -
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
Where is your wife from Kimbercolt?
japan
But your missing thge point. I had already entered once, my firearm was in my truck under lock and key, public parking lot. I did have a credit card companion in my wallet, my bag, but that was a innocent mistake, its been in my wallet three yrs since my mom gave it to me. He took it, I could really have cared less about that, when the wife came out to get her glasses, she ask me to come back in with her, when I was under the tree with my dog, the security guard saw my holster, my sog and benchmade was in the gun case also locked.
he refused to let me enter because I had a holster on under my shirt, I had already been searched one, and I assumed I would be searched again. But he stopped me out side the building, when I ask to talk to his supervisor he got nasty, "if you push this I will arrest you: I ask on what charge, no answer. I ask for his name and number, when I turned to go back to my truck, this bozo started yelling, now you tell me, if I had been the one yelling, yes I would have been arressted. He knew he made a mistake when he did it. by threating, he was hoping I would no pursue my complanit. The director of federal protective services called me after I sent copies of the complanit to everyone I could think, I was not looking to get my credit card companion back, but he did give it to me along with an apoligise. he also told me the guard acted unprofessional and rude, he stated he will not have someone like that working with the public. as soon as I can get Brownie to scan it, I will let you see it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tr fox
Sounds like you were treated disrespectfully. Here in KS/MO citizen would be told to take the knife, scissors, pepper spray, etc. back to their vehicle. If they have no vehicle (dropped off by friend, etc) they are told to take it back outside and throw it away. (except for guns. If gun with CCW, then take it back to vehicle, if no CCW then go to jail). Sometimes citizen can just take it back outside, hide it under a bush and pick it up later.
Yeah, I had to go to a MO./county courthouse once converning an accident i had been in. At that time i always wore a large automatic knife clipped on the outside of my pocket, and had forgotten about it. Got to the checkpoint before entering the courtroom, and remembered it. Looking rather guilty-like i laid it on the officers table (button down). He gave me a knowing look and said "i'd feel better if you just took that back out to your truck"...me: "yessir".[:)][8D]0 -
I had a similar experience at the local SS office about a year and a half ago. I went with my youngest son to get a copy of his SS card and showed the "guard" my retired ID to gain entry. Well he wants to see my drivers license, and then I instructed him as to the 5 things that make a card "legal" identification. He wants me show him a "National Identification Card". I explain the there is no such animal and twenty years of law enforcement trumps his 3 months guard duty. I said call your boss or shut-up.
He went back to his desk, sat down and shut up.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Alpine
...twenty years of law enforcement trumps his 3 months guard duty. I said call your boss or shut-up.
He went back to his desk, sat down and shut up.
[:D]0 -
Last time I went tot he stadium the cop at the entrance told me I could not bring in my bottle of water (unopened and sealed). I gave it to him and told him that he better drink it as it costs enough to buy. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by yawarakai
Last time I went tot he stadium the cop at the entrance told me I could not bring in my bottle of water (unopened and sealed). I gave it to him and told him that he better drink it as it costs enough to buy.
I would have told him not to shake it or drop it.
Ben0 -
quote:Originally posted by fishermanben
quote:Originally posted by yawarakai
Last time I went tot he stadium the cop at the entrance told me I could not bring in my bottle of water (unopened and sealed). I gave it to him and told him that he better drink it as it costs enough to buy.
I would have told him not to shake it or drop it.
Ben
bet that would have got his attention right quick[:0]0
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