Need help finding a law
I have to provide someone with proof of a law before they will ship me my T/C Omega muzzleloader. They want proof that they can send this via USPS and won't do so until I provide them with proof that it is legal to do so.
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Hi idsman!
Call the USPS and ask for the regulation number from a Zone post office. The post offices is NOT allowed to ask what a package contains.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bpost1958
Hi idsman!
Call the USPS and ask for the regulation number from a Zone post office. The post offices is NOT allowed to ask what a package contains.
True, but you are required to disclose it's contents.
Don0 -
why dont he just ask his post office if he can send the firearm? i was told any ffl dealer can send through usps , but non ffl cant 0 -
IDS,
See 11.2 & 11.3 of the domestic mail manual[:D]
http://tinyurl.com/33zn56
Don0 -
I thought muzzleloaders did not qualify as firearms? So, shipping a muzzleloader is the legal equivalent of shipping a golf club or a piece of pipe. 0 -
11.2 and 11.3 do not address the issue. I've already been there. I know that the USC defines a muzzleloader (no matter how modern) as an "antique". However, those sections of the DMM only address antique firearms "sent as curios or museum pieces". My Omega isn't a curio or a museum piece.
Secondly, I'd rather not get into the details of why HE wants me to do the research. I just have to provide him with the law that provides for the lawful mailing of a muzzleloader.
jwb267--A muzzleloader can be mailed by anyone to anyone except for the handful of states that restrict it. There would be no restriction for the mailing of a muzzleloader from one individual in Minnesota to another individual in Iowa. I'm trying to locate the law but the USC doesn't seem to address the mailing of "antique" firearms. I can't find it anywhere. I've searched the USC and the DMM and can't find any statement allowing for this. I KNOW that you can do it. Hell, you can order the darn things out of Cabelas' catalog or online. I just can't prove it and I need to. I really don't feel like buying another muzzleloader right now. I'd rather spend my money on powder, bullets, primers and my hunting trip this fall.0 -
quote:Originally posted by MosinNagantDisciple
I thought muzzleloaders did not qualify as firearms? So, shipping a muzzleloader is the legal equivalent of shipping a golf club or a piece of pipe.
Title 18 USC defines them as "antique firearms". All muzzleloaders (no matter how recent their production) are considerd "antique". I just can't find the provision that allows for the mailing of an "antique firearm" through the USPS.0 -
quote:Originally posted by jwb267
why dont he just ask his post office if he can send the firearm? i was told any ffl dealer can send through usps , but non ffl cant
Can't ask the post office and here's why:
quote:11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.0 -
A muzzleloader is not considered a "firearm" as described by the 1968 Gun Control Act. That is why you are having trouble finding the law regarding shipping of muzzleloaders. There are none.
If it is that big of an issue with them shipping via the USPS, pay the little extra and have them ship UPS or FedEx.0 -
or ask them how cabelas, bass pro, etc etc ship their muzzleloaders? hmmm.. mine magically appeared with no problems...even with the words "KNIGHT MUZZLELOADERS" or something to that effect on the box. the guy is an idiot.. 0 -
First of all (typical to the Gunbroker scene) I'm not asking for other avenues to ship or have the gun delivered to me. I am asking specifically for help finding the law/provision in writing that will allow this person to ship me a muzzleloader.
Secondly, he's not an idiot. He's doing me a huge favor by letting me keep my guns in a safe at his house. I left them there before moving to Missouri and will get them when I return to Minnesota for Christmas. I have respect for this individual so that is why I am not going into detail about my relationship to him. I'd deserve to have my tongue cut out before I called this person an "idiot". Not everyone lives and breathes the gun culture so not everyone knows how the law applies to the shipment of firearms. Big deal.
I am asking this person a favor so the ONUS is on ME to research what I need to research so that he can feel comfortable taking what he considers to be a GUN to a post office in the communist occupied city of Minneapolis.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
A muzzleloader is not considered a "firearm" as described by the 1968 Gun Control Act. That is why you are having trouble finding the law regarding shipping of muzzleloaders. There are none.
If it is that big of an issue with them shipping via the USPS, pay the little extra and have them ship UPS or FedEx.
You'll actually have more problems with UPS in my past experience and the experience of many I've talked to. There are more ignorant idiots working for UPS that will give you a hard time about a muzzleloader than in the postal service.0 -
quote:Originally posted by idsman75
Can't ask the post office and here's why:
quote:11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.
As I said before, a muzzleloader is not a "rifle" or a "shotgun" as refered to by this article.
And if you read it correctly, it states that they can't "give opinions on the legality of". If you ask them your question, they would not be giving an opinion, they would be saying "Yes you can" or "No you can't". No opinions there.
Lastly, why don't you just take the advise of the above quote and contact the ATF instead of asking a bunch of "Joes" on a gun forum?0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
quote:Originally posted by idsman75
Can't ask the post office and here's why:
quote:11.4 Legal Opinions on Mailing Firearms
Postmasters are not authorized to give opinions on the legality of any shipment of rifles or shotguns. Contact the nearest office of the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms for further advice.
As I said before, a muzzleloader is not a "rifle" or a "shotgun" as refered to by this article.
And if you read it correctly, it states that they can't "give opinions on the legality of". If you ask them your question, they would not be giving an opinion, they would be saying "Yes you can" or "No you can't". No opinions there.
Lastly, why don't you just take the advise of the above quote and contact the ATF instead of asking a bunch of "Joes" on a gun forum?
I'm asking a bunch of "Joes" on a gun forum because Gunbroker used to be a rather nonconfrontational place where people helped eachother out with questions. I'd rather come here and get an answer on a link to a website with a quote from Federal Law that I can actually provide as PROOF than do the explaining over the phone about some conversation I had with someone from the ATF.
Yes, they would technically give an opinion because they would have to interpret what they read in the law. That's why legal counsel is often asked for an "opine" regarding the application of certain laws in certain situations.0 -
What you're looking for is in 11.0 of 601 of the DMM, whether he wants to send it is another matter.
As an aside, can anyone show me the specific law that allows me to have a blue car ?0 -
quote:Originally posted by idsman75
I'm asking a bunch of "Joes" on a gun forum because Gunbroker used to be a rather nonconfrontational place where people helped eachother out with questions. I'd rather come here and get an answer on a link to a website with a quote from Federal Law that I can actually provide as PROOF than do the explaining over the phone about some conversation I had with someone from the ATF.
Yes, they would technically give an opinion because they would have to interpret what they read in the law. That's why legal counsel is often asked for an "opine" regarding the application of certain laws in certain situations.
I am not trying to be confrontational, I am just trying to get you to see the point. The point is a muzzleloader is not a "firearm" as descibed in any law that is currently written.
Here is a link to what I am talking about:
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/firearmstech/072205antiquefirearm.pdf
Therefore, since the T/C Omega is not subject to the Gun Control Act of 1968, you can ship it any way you see fit.0 -
From the BATFE website:
9. ANTIQUE FIREARMS UNDER THE GCA, NFA
AND THE ARMS EXPORT CONTROL ACT
Under section 921(a)(16) of the GCA, the term antique firearm means:
(A) any firearm (including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock,
percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) manufactured in or before 1898; and
(B) any replica of any firearm described in subparagraph (A) if such
replica -
(i) is not designed or redesigned for using rimfire or
conventional centerfire fixed ammunition, or
(ii) uses rimfire or conventional centerfire fixed ammunition
which is no longer manufactured in the United States and which is
not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial
trade; or
(C) any muzzle loading rifle, muzzle loading shotgun, or muzzle loading pistol, which is designed to use black powder, or a black powder substitute,
and which cannot use fixed ammunition.
For purposes of subparagraph (C), a muzzle loading rifle, shotgun, or
pistol is not an "antique firearm" for purposes of the GCA if it incorporates a firearm frame or receiver, if it is a firearm which is converted into a muzzle loading weapon, or if it can be readily converted to fire fixed ammunition by replacing the barrel, bolt, breechblock, or any combination of such parts.
Under section 5845(g) of the NFA, antique firearm means:
"...Any firearm not designed or redesigned for using rim fire or
conventional center fire ignition with fixed ammunition and manufactured in or before 1898 (including any matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system or replica thereof, whether actually manufactured before or after 1898) and also any firearm using fixed ammunition manufactured in or before 1898, for which ammunition is no longer manufactured in the United States and is not readily available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade."
To illustrate the distinction between the two definitions of antique
firearm under the GCA and NFA, a rifle manufactured in or before 1898 would not come under the provisions of the GCA, even though it uses conventional ammunition. However, if such rifle has a barrel of less than 16 inches in length AND uses conventional fixed ammunition which is available in the ordinary channels of commercial trade, it would still be a firearm subject to the provisions of the NFA.
An antique firearm as defined in both the GCA and NFA is exempt from all of the provisions and restrictions contained in both laws. Consequently, such an antique firearm may be bought, sold, transported, shipped, etc., without regard to the requirements of these laws.
Under the Arms Export Control Act certain "antique firearms" are not
subject to the import controls under that Act. These "antique firearms" are defined as 'muzzle loading (black powder) firearms(including any firearm with a matchlock, flintlock, percussion cap, or similar type of ignition system) or firearms covered by Category I(a) established to have been manufactured in or before 1898.'
No all-inclusive list of antique firearms is published by ATF.0 -
As per USPS Regulations it is a firearm, see 11.1.1c
Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, designed to, or that may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.0 -
I already see your point. I've known all about your point for years. However, I don't think you see mine. I am looking to see if there is, in writing, something that states that it is LEGAL to ship something that is not subject to the GCA. Telling someone that a law doesn't exist does not give them any proof that the action is legal because I can't show, in writing, that something doesn't exist. I can only show what DOES exist in writing. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by M.Opaliski
As per USPS Regulations it is a firearm, see 11.1.1c
Firearm means any device, including a starter gun, designed to, or that may readily be converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosion, spring, or other mechanical action, or air or gas pressure with enough force to be used as a weapon.
Exactly. I've referenced the DMM on several occasions when shipping firearms. It IS a firearm per the definition found in the DMM. However, federal law does not prohibit the shipping of a muzzleloader. It's done all the time by businesses (Cabelas, Bass Pro, et al). Those places ship non-licensees muzzleloaders every day. That's why I'm trying to find proof that it is indeed legal so he can carry a copy of that proof with him to the post office so he won't get hassled by a typical Twin Cities dipshot behind the counter. He's non-confrontational and will just walk away not knowing what to say to the person and I won't get my Omega.0 -
quote:Originally posted by M.Opaliski
What you're looking for is in 11.0 of 601 of the DMM, whether he wants to send it is another matter.
As an aside, can anyone show me the specific law that allows me to have a blue car ?
Only gays have blue cars [:D][:D][:D][:D][:D]
(sorry I just could not stop from posting it [:I])0 -
Rocklobster--You are a saint. Thank you. That's what I've been Googling for since I got home from work 2 hours ago. 0 -
Well, to that end, and generally speaking ... if there in no law that specifically prohibits an action, the action is legal ... 0 -
quote:Originally posted by M.Opaliski
Well, to that end, and generally speaking ... if there in no law that specifically prohibits an action, the action is legal ...
yes, that is true. however, I can't show someone in writing that a law doesn't exist prohibiting a particular action. That's not much comfort to someone who doesn't understand a certain aspect of firearms laws. Trust me--they'll kick your door in in the Twin Cities over some real stupid crap. I saw some unbelievable stuff go down on the news in the Twin Cities when I got home from Iraq. It was unbelievable what they were doing to this poor guy who had guns, ammo, black powder, smokeless powder and a bunch of cannon fuse. He just happened to have large quantities of it. They got the National Guard and a whole bunch of outside agencies invovled. They basically ruined him in front of all of his ignorant neighbors who were just "appalled" that this "gun nut" was living in their neighborhood. I listened to all of the so-called "allegations" on the news and didn't hear them mention a single illegal act. It was downright ugly. I followed the story for 2 weeks while I was home. They felt they found enough evidence from this so-called "crime scene" to kick in the door of some other poor sap that lived less than a mile from my parents' home. Seriously though. A lot of Twin Cities gun owners are paranoid--and rightly so! The police chiefs of the Twin Cities hate gun owners and the general liberal climate is not good for people like us.0 -
Well, whatever ends up happening ... good luck with it. 0 -
Yessir, my pleasure. [;)] Sorry, it may take some time to find statutes pertaining to automobile color-choice laws. 0 -
Rocklobster--That doesn't matter unless you're gay [:D]
Your particular quote can come from page 160 of the Federal Firearms Regulations Reference Guide published by the USDOJ/BATFE in 2005.
http://books.google.com/books?id=9encMNU8mwsC&pg=PA160&lpg=PA160&dq=an+antique+firearm+as+defined+in+both+the+gca+and+nfa+is+exempt+from+all+of+the+provisions+and+restrictions+contained+in+both+laws+consequently+such+an+antique+firearm+may+be+bought+sold+transported+shipped+etc+without+regard+to+the+requirements+of+these+laws&source=web&ots=B-QrkUG1jX&sig=7cP4bZvxe1GelQSIov-pJr3V0ME0 -
idsman - If your friend is willing to take a little road trip, have him drive about 1.5 hours south to a little town called Cleveland (right between St. Peter and LeCenter on Hwy 99). He will have absolutely no problem shipping that Omega from there. I grew up there and I know the postmaster (i.e. only person who works at the post office there). He is a great guy and a gun-nut. 0 -
He gets all over the midwest for work (The DAkotas, Minnesota, Wisconsin). I think I'll just let him decide now that I've provided the law to him via email.
Thanks.0 -
Just talked to him on the phone. He's going to hook me up after he gets back to the Twin Cities.
Thanks for the help.0
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