My thoughts on religion- and my hangups
If anyone can answer any of this definitively, please do. Or just comment as you will. Or share your views. Best, Jon.
ow it is common knowledge that if you want to start an argument with someone, discussing religion or politics is a good way to do it. So up front, it is not my intent to start an argument. These are my view and if you want to comment on them, cool; if not, thanks for reading, anyhow!
What religion am I? What do I believe? Hmm. Good questions. I was baptized Roman Catholic, but was raised by two parents who had basically decided the Church is full of it, after Vatican II in the 60's. I went to a Catholic school, and my uncle is a priest. So I was raised in the catholic tradition by self-proclaimed deists, i.e. people who believe in God but not religion.
More on beliefs below; but suffice to say, I like the idea of Christianity, the ideal for which it stands, but am unsure if I believe in the core tenet. Even though I'm a pragmatist and probably a hypocrite, I like the message of Christianity in that it is forgiving. Christians- in the ideal sense again, not the crusading soldiers type- are loving and caring, and don't- at least not since the inquisition- try to force their beliefs on anyone, as a group. So liking the ideal of Christianity, what religion am I?
Let's assume that Jesus existed and was the son of God (more on that below). If so, he founded the Catholic Church when he passed on the `keys' to Peter; ergo, Catholicism is the one religion started by Christ. Assuming him to be the messiah, that knocks Judaism and pretty much every other religion existing up to that point. I don't have a problem with the Orthodox religions; an argument over who is pope and where the center of Christianity should be (leading to the Great Schism) does not automatically make the Orthodox Christian faiths any less valid than Roman Catholicism. I DO however, have a problem with Protestantism, at least some sects. Consider Lutheranism. Luther had not the intention of starting his own church; he wanted to reform some very real abuses he saw in the Catholic Church and was prosecuted for it. So I understand the reason he broke away. What I do not understand is why Lutherans remain estranged from Catholics; the abuses against which he argued have been reformed; selling indulgences, self-flagellation, etc., are now things of the past. By their founder's own precepts, Lutherans should rejoin Catholicism, I think. Consider also Anglicanism; a King wanted a younger and more fertile wife. Very pious there. So strike that. Now as to Calvinism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., I have no specific complaint, as I don't know much about their belief system, but I do see a pattern emerging in my thought towards Protestants. I will limit my comments to the Judeo-Christian world; I am unsure of what I think about Eastern or African religions.
So on to God and His word and His son. I am not convinced that God MUST be either all-knowing or all-powerful; consider the scientist who is experimenting with creating DNA strands from protein molecules. If he succeeds, and creates life from nothing, is he not God for that oh-so primitive life form? Such experiments are underway, and considering we can clone things, create new elements, create matter from energy, etc., I have no doubt they will succeed. And if we can do that, who is to say that an extraordinarily more advanced being could not have created us, and the Universe? But it does not follow that he or it or she or whatever MUST be all knowing or all powerful; I'm sure to cave men we would seem to be so. Great ability does not necessarily equate with omnipotence.
I'm not arguing that God exists; just that the traditional interpretation of him may be wrong. I'm not saying that it is wrong, either; just that I don't know and would like to keep an open mind.
Let us proceed to the Bible; while God certainly has not revealed himself to us fully, and while some matters must be taken, perhaps, on faith, I do not think that God would give us a brain and then try to fool us; that would be petty of Him. Ergo, we have discovered, rationally, that the earth is 4 some odd billion years old, not just a few thousand, as Biblical scholars suggest; and that man evolved from some lower form of life, and wasn't created in being in a lush garden, and that the universe originated in a cataclysmic expansin (NOT explosion, a common misconception). To quote 1 Corinthians, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." Well humanity was, when the Bible was written, less intelligent and developed than we are now. The Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by men, perhaps with divine inspiration. Men who were fallible; God did NOT take over their bodies and write, or it would have violated free will. So they could have gotten it all wrong. Even if it is right, it might be a symbolic right, not a literal one. The story of Adam and Eve fulfilled their need, but as surely as a geocentric universe fulfilled the need for a model of the universe, it was wrong; so is the Biblical story of Creation surely and unfortunately wrong. God may not give us answers, nor is He necessarily logical within our ken, but I doubt very much he would test our logic by deliberately misleading; that again, would be petty.
Would God rather that we follow, blindly from fear or tradition, or ask questions, even if it meant questioning Him, using the brains he gave us? Because the man who wants to learn is seeking to expand himself; the man who does not is not making much of the life given him. Does God want automotons or intelligent beings as his creation?
Which brings me to Christ. I say I believe in Christian tenets, but my big problem is, I'm not sure I can believe in Christ. I would like to. Believe me, I would like to. Or rather, I can accept the historical Christ, but that he was son of God? I'm not sure. To be a bit roundabout about it, to accept the idea of Christ, one must accept that there is no life, anywhere else in the universe, at least not intelligent. Because if man is made in God's image (see again, evolution), and he sent US his son to save us from ourselves and our sins, doesn't that SCREW any other life out there? That is of course, purely circumstantial; on the more concrete level, I can think of at least 2 ways to impregnate a woman without vaginal penetration, so even if Christ's mother was virgin, it doesn't mean the child was divine. And even if he was God's son, wouldn't that violate Mary in a free will as well as physical sense? I mean, she wasn't ASKED, she was informed by an angel, she was to be mother to God's son. And that in and of itself brings up issues. Was Jesus related to Mary? That is, was she his mother, literally? Or was she just a vessel for God to become man? Because if Christ was the blending of divine power and Mary's own biology, then he was a demi-god, not God made manifest; and therefore merely following in the tradition of Hercules and Achilles and many others from mythology. But assuming he WAS son of God, my next question would be, how is dying horribly, persecuted and crucified, saving man for his sins? Baptism already washed away original sin (I also have problems with that; if my father were to kill someone, while I'd feel awful, how would I be guilty?), and while Christ made a sacrifice, surely, how does that create a way to heaven for man? And if God and Christ KNEW of Christ's destiny, from the day of his creation, does that not also negate free will? That of Christ himself? And if simply a scapegoat, a sacrifice to appease God, what, did he sacrifice himself to himself (trinity?) It makes no sense, and I again come back to the question of whether God would do something illogical to try and trick us. But even skirting these main issues are periphery issues; what of the stories of Mary Magdelene and Jesus fathering a child by her? This seems to be anathema to Catholics, but why? Jewish rabbis aren't expected to remain celibate, and Christ was Jewish; heck, even priests could have wives until the middle ages when the Church stopped the practice as priests were willing Church land to their wives (so priests can't marry due to the greed of the Church. Very pious.). Did God create an impotent son? If Christ did father children, by Mary Magdelene or anyone else, how would that make him any less the son of God? This is most confusing. And how was it that Mary was immaculately conceived, without sin? Would this not again, mean that she was pre-destined to carry Jesus, negating HER free will? Are we just puppets for God? And why did she remain perpetually a virgin? She married Joseph, and is it not God's plan for a man and a woman to be together, physically? Which would bring up the question of Jesus's having half brothers or sisters, another story that keeps cropping up and the Church denies. Why? What of the resurrection? Did Christ really die on the cross? Or did he simply get horribly wounded? I guess that's the crux of it isn't it?
Nonetheless, despite all of this, I don't dismiss the idea out of turn; too many religions have the idea of a savior, from the Christian messiah to the Krishna of India, to various Christ-like figures in Mayan religion; heck Christ is even acknowledged as existing in Judaism and Islam, just not as the savior.
These of course, are just logical arguments, not taking into count historical information or pagan beliefs, many of which are mirrored in Christianity; that would open another can of worms and I'm sick of typing for now.
So when someone asks, "what religion are you," I answer "Catholic" as I have been baptized as such, and don't discount it, but if you asked where my beliefs lie, I'd be hard pressed to give an easy answer. Sometimes I feel bad about this, sometimes not, but it is the truth.
ow it is common knowledge that if you want to start an argument with someone, discussing religion or politics is a good way to do it. So up front, it is not my intent to start an argument. These are my view and if you want to comment on them, cool; if not, thanks for reading, anyhow!
What religion am I? What do I believe? Hmm. Good questions. I was baptized Roman Catholic, but was raised by two parents who had basically decided the Church is full of it, after Vatican II in the 60's. I went to a Catholic school, and my uncle is a priest. So I was raised in the catholic tradition by self-proclaimed deists, i.e. people who believe in God but not religion.
More on beliefs below; but suffice to say, I like the idea of Christianity, the ideal for which it stands, but am unsure if I believe in the core tenet. Even though I'm a pragmatist and probably a hypocrite, I like the message of Christianity in that it is forgiving. Christians- in the ideal sense again, not the crusading soldiers type- are loving and caring, and don't- at least not since the inquisition- try to force their beliefs on anyone, as a group. So liking the ideal of Christianity, what religion am I?
Let's assume that Jesus existed and was the son of God (more on that below). If so, he founded the Catholic Church when he passed on the `keys' to Peter; ergo, Catholicism is the one religion started by Christ. Assuming him to be the messiah, that knocks Judaism and pretty much every other religion existing up to that point. I don't have a problem with the Orthodox religions; an argument over who is pope and where the center of Christianity should be (leading to the Great Schism) does not automatically make the Orthodox Christian faiths any less valid than Roman Catholicism. I DO however, have a problem with Protestantism, at least some sects. Consider Lutheranism. Luther had not the intention of starting his own church; he wanted to reform some very real abuses he saw in the Catholic Church and was prosecuted for it. So I understand the reason he broke away. What I do not understand is why Lutherans remain estranged from Catholics; the abuses against which he argued have been reformed; selling indulgences, self-flagellation, etc., are now things of the past. By their founder's own precepts, Lutherans should rejoin Catholicism, I think. Consider also Anglicanism; a King wanted a younger and more fertile wife. Very pious there. So strike that. Now as to Calvinism, Jehovah's Witnesses, etc., I have no specific complaint, as I don't know much about their belief system, but I do see a pattern emerging in my thought towards Protestants. I will limit my comments to the Judeo-Christian world; I am unsure of what I think about Eastern or African religions.
So on to God and His word and His son. I am not convinced that God MUST be either all-knowing or all-powerful; consider the scientist who is experimenting with creating DNA strands from protein molecules. If he succeeds, and creates life from nothing, is he not God for that oh-so primitive life form? Such experiments are underway, and considering we can clone things, create new elements, create matter from energy, etc., I have no doubt they will succeed. And if we can do that, who is to say that an extraordinarily more advanced being could not have created us, and the Universe? But it does not follow that he or it or she or whatever MUST be all knowing or all powerful; I'm sure to cave men we would seem to be so. Great ability does not necessarily equate with omnipotence.
I'm not arguing that God exists; just that the traditional interpretation of him may be wrong. I'm not saying that it is wrong, either; just that I don't know and would like to keep an open mind.
Let us proceed to the Bible; while God certainly has not revealed himself to us fully, and while some matters must be taken, perhaps, on faith, I do not think that God would give us a brain and then try to fool us; that would be petty of Him. Ergo, we have discovered, rationally, that the earth is 4 some odd billion years old, not just a few thousand, as Biblical scholars suggest; and that man evolved from some lower form of life, and wasn't created in being in a lush garden, and that the universe originated in a cataclysmic expansin (NOT explosion, a common misconception). To quote 1 Corinthians, "When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child: now that I am become a man, I have put away childish things." Well humanity was, when the Bible was written, less intelligent and developed than we are now. The Bible wasn't written by God, it was written by men, perhaps with divine inspiration. Men who were fallible; God did NOT take over their bodies and write, or it would have violated free will. So they could have gotten it all wrong. Even if it is right, it might be a symbolic right, not a literal one. The story of Adam and Eve fulfilled their need, but as surely as a geocentric universe fulfilled the need for a model of the universe, it was wrong; so is the Biblical story of Creation surely and unfortunately wrong. God may not give us answers, nor is He necessarily logical within our ken, but I doubt very much he would test our logic by deliberately misleading; that again, would be petty.
Would God rather that we follow, blindly from fear or tradition, or ask questions, even if it meant questioning Him, using the brains he gave us? Because the man who wants to learn is seeking to expand himself; the man who does not is not making much of the life given him. Does God want automotons or intelligent beings as his creation?
Which brings me to Christ. I say I believe in Christian tenets, but my big problem is, I'm not sure I can believe in Christ. I would like to. Believe me, I would like to. Or rather, I can accept the historical Christ, but that he was son of God? I'm not sure. To be a bit roundabout about it, to accept the idea of Christ, one must accept that there is no life, anywhere else in the universe, at least not intelligent. Because if man is made in God's image (see again, evolution), and he sent US his son to save us from ourselves and our sins, doesn't that SCREW any other life out there? That is of course, purely circumstantial; on the more concrete level, I can think of at least 2 ways to impregnate a woman without vaginal penetration, so even if Christ's mother was virgin, it doesn't mean the child was divine. And even if he was God's son, wouldn't that violate Mary in a free will as well as physical sense? I mean, she wasn't ASKED, she was informed by an angel, she was to be mother to God's son. And that in and of itself brings up issues. Was Jesus related to Mary? That is, was she his mother, literally? Or was she just a vessel for God to become man? Because if Christ was the blending of divine power and Mary's own biology, then he was a demi-god, not God made manifest; and therefore merely following in the tradition of Hercules and Achilles and many others from mythology. But assuming he WAS son of God, my next question would be, how is dying horribly, persecuted and crucified, saving man for his sins? Baptism already washed away original sin (I also have problems with that; if my father were to kill someone, while I'd feel awful, how would I be guilty?), and while Christ made a sacrifice, surely, how does that create a way to heaven for man? And if God and Christ KNEW of Christ's destiny, from the day of his creation, does that not also negate free will? That of Christ himself? And if simply a scapegoat, a sacrifice to appease God, what, did he sacrifice himself to himself (trinity?) It makes no sense, and I again come back to the question of whether God would do something illogical to try and trick us. But even skirting these main issues are periphery issues; what of the stories of Mary Magdelene and Jesus fathering a child by her? This seems to be anathema to Catholics, but why? Jewish rabbis aren't expected to remain celibate, and Christ was Jewish; heck, even priests could have wives until the middle ages when the Church stopped the practice as priests were willing Church land to their wives (so priests can't marry due to the greed of the Church. Very pious.). Did God create an impotent son? If Christ did father children, by Mary Magdelene or anyone else, how would that make him any less the son of God? This is most confusing. And how was it that Mary was immaculately conceived, without sin? Would this not again, mean that she was pre-destined to carry Jesus, negating HER free will? Are we just puppets for God? And why did she remain perpetually a virgin? She married Joseph, and is it not God's plan for a man and a woman to be together, physically? Which would bring up the question of Jesus's having half brothers or sisters, another story that keeps cropping up and the Church denies. Why? What of the resurrection? Did Christ really die on the cross? Or did he simply get horribly wounded? I guess that's the crux of it isn't it?
Nonetheless, despite all of this, I don't dismiss the idea out of turn; too many religions have the idea of a savior, from the Christian messiah to the Krishna of India, to various Christ-like figures in Mayan religion; heck Christ is even acknowledged as existing in Judaism and Islam, just not as the savior.
These of course, are just logical arguments, not taking into count historical information or pagan beliefs, many of which are mirrored in Christianity; that would open another can of worms and I'm sick of typing for now.
So when someone asks, "what religion are you," I answer "Catholic" as I have been baptized as such, and don't discount it, but if you asked where my beliefs lie, I'd be hard pressed to give an easy answer. Sometimes I feel bad about this, sometimes not, but it is the truth.
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I will only offer you this.
Religion is a truly wonderful thing. It's the people practicing them who generally mess things up and do harmful, evil things.
I do not believe that God actually cares what church/mosque/synagogue/storefront/temple/kingdom hall you frequent.
How you live your life, love those around you and treat your fellow man are, IMHO, the real determining factors to be concerned with.
Just my 2 cents. No malice intended.0 -
I think you just want to rant.If you can't believe your a sinner or you believe your so perfect that God can't do without having you around go for it.I know how bad off i am, i do need a savior, Jesus .I do believe He,( Jesus the Christ), is the son of God and is God in his own right.As for all the other religons thier leaders are all dead, unlike Jesus who was seen by thousands after he was killed. 0 -
What would happen if god was not around?
Would little kids get hit by cars?
Would lightening strike churches?
Would people murder others?
Would we have wars?
Would people be hungry?
Would natural disasters kill millions?
Exactly what does god do for people?
Pay their rent and heating costs?
Give them a new car?
Some say he comforts them in time of need. That can also be accomplished by a warm blanket. Is god like Linus's blanket in the Peanuts cartoon? A comfortable friend from childhood? Nothing wrong with that if you realize that you need not pray to a blanket.
Man created god to fulfill a special need. To explain why. Why did the sun rise? Why did the wind blow?
As time marches on, the questions get a little harder. The current one is that how could this world exist except by devine intervention?
Simple. For every species that exist, over a thousand did not survive. Simple probability. Chance, and adaptability, not devine intervention, is what is responsible for the world we have here.
Many gods have come and gone as their reign soon gave way to knowledge and understanding. So too will the current ones.0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
What would happen if god was not around?
Nothing. We would not be here, and neither would anything else that exists.0 -
It's all Wal-Mart's fault! 0 -
for christ said i am the church come unto me 0 -
I think you were very honest with your title "...and my hangups"
It is difficult to let go of our hangups sometimes. I think God's glory and grace is found when we let go of our hangups.
No, I am not mocking anyone. I have my own issues that prevent me from having a closer relationship with God, but faith is letting go of some of our own ideas in an attempt to be open to His.
Also, in my opinion, there is a difference between God and the church. Men fail. God doesn't. Churches are made up of people. I try to seek God and not let issues with people in church get between me and knowing him.0 -
It's all Bush's fault and this thread is headed for the poof list. 0 -
I can't read. 0 -
i have had these same questions. the more i questioned the more i became depressed.i was close to becoming an athiest and feeling really empty when a feeling came over me. it started at my head and was like i was filling up. hard to explain but it must have been a divine intervention since i have never questioned the existance of G_D again. i am no saint and no example of a devout christian. i guess i am a hypocrite in a lot of repects but now i just go by blind faith. some questions do not need to be asked and just believe as a child does. as for catholism i was baptised and raised a catholic but the church has been watered down unlike when i was a kid. back then it was a true disipline. i go to catholic church very rarely but that is how i was raised so i still consider myself a catholic. i have tried protestant churches but didn't care for their services. not a slam just not for me. 0 -
My advice....
Read The Bible!0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
What would happen if god was not around?
Would little kids get hit by cars?
Would lightening strike churches?
Would people murder others?
Would we have wars?
Would people be hungry?
Would natural disasters kill millions?
Exactly what does god do for people?
Pay their rent and heating costs?
Give them a new car?
God does not Serve Man... [}:)] Man should Serve God!
1 Corinthians 10:31
31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.0 -
4 For there are certain men crept in privily, even they who were of old written of beforehand unto this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying our only Master and Lord, Jesus Christ. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
My advice....
Read The Bible!
I have read the Bible. Cover to cover. Several times. I have read select passages many, many more times. There is a great deal of value there, both in terms of telling the metaphoric and real truths of the era, with lessons applicable to our own lives. I do not dispute this. However, reading the Bible doesn't answer these questions; if anything, it adds more to them.
You know, I will temper my rant with one acknowledgment; I said, "I can't believe X because it flies in the face of logic; and if we live in a rational world, and God gave us our brains for a reason, he would not intentionally try to deceive us as that would be petty, and He has other things to do." True, assuming God is merciful and all powerful- but who is to say that He can't be petty, or vindictive, or outright cruel, taking in the worst of the Old Testament God and then some, and none of that of the New Testament? If this is true, then I agree, he COULD have created a 5000 year old world that LOOKED to be 4.5 billion years old, just to fool us and screw with our heads, and laughed all the way to the bank.0 -
quote:Originally posted by mrseatle
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
What would happen if god was not around?
Would little kids get hit by cars?
Would lightening strike churches?
Would people murder others?
Would we have wars?
Would people be hungry?
Would natural disasters kill millions?
Exactly what does god do for people?
Pay their rent and heating costs?
Give them a new car?
God does not Serve Man... [}:)] Man should Serve God!
1 Corinthians 10:31
31 So, whether you eat or drink, or whatever you do, do all to the glory of God.
Guess again Buckwheat. What happens to kings that don't keep their subjects somewhat content. They get dethroned like all the ones in the past have. Kings only rule until the peasants rise up.0 -
quote:for christ said i am the church come unto me
when did you hear Christ say this ?? If your going to tell me its in the bible then Christ did not say it one of the many MEN who wrote the bible said it..
quote:Read The Bible!
I have several times,I have read several different ones from the King James to the Living Bible...The difference is I can always grasp the FACT it was written by men not God and it was comprised by a group of Romans/Priest to say what they wanted it to say as to control the people of the empire..If it is the true word then you would have to include ALL the books and chapters they decided to leave out because it did not suit their need..you would only have half the bible as it is now written..
quote:there is a difference between God and the church
One of the best things said in this thread, most churches are way more worried about your money than they are your soul,if a person wants to worship he can go into the yard and talk to God, he does not need to go into a multi-million dollar building built to hold as many sheep as can be crammed in the door to increase the OFFERINGS..
I personally have no problem with God, be he/she Jehovah , Yahweh ,Allah , Zeus ,or mother Earth,,,my gripe is and alway be anytime you try to debate, people want to throw passages from a book written by man,,God did not write ONE page in the whole book,,if I wanted to worship a man written book I could do the same thing with L.Ron Hubbard,,he also wrote a book and created a religion "scientology " ,,does that make his book a Bible ????0 -
chill sharpshooter, in my opinion you are absolutely correct . the churches are man made but christ said he is the church. you cannot worship both god and mammon {man} and the bible also teaches to pray alone under an oak tree for i will hear you. it has always worked for me[:)][;)] 0
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