US Snipers Allegedly "Bait" Iraqis
WASHINGTON - Army snipers hunting insurgents in Iraq were under orders to "bait" their targets with suspicious materials, such as detonation cords, and then kill whoever picked up the items, according to the defense attorney for a soldier accused of planting evidence on an Iraqi he killed.
Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said Monday his client had acted "pursuant to orders."
"We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview.
Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.
The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists.
"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.
Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.
The transcript of a court hearing for two of the three accused snipers makes several references to the existence of a classified "baiting" program but provides few details of how it works. A copy of the transcript was provided to The Associated Press by Vela's father.
The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.
"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."
The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.
Within months of the "baiting" program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate, according to the Post.
The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.
The court martial of one of the accused soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley.
They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.
Gary Myers, an attorney for Sgt. Evan Vela, said Monday his client had acted "pursuant to orders."
"We believe that our client has done nothing more than he was instructed to do by superiors," Myers said in a telephone interview.
Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.
The Army on Monday declined to confirm such a program exists.
"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.
Boyce also said there are no classified programs that authorize the murder of Iraqi civilians or the use of "drop weapons" to make killings appeared to be legally justified, which is what Vela and the two other snipers are accused of doing.
The transcript of a court hearing for two of the three accused snipers makes several references to the existence of a classified "baiting" program but provides few details of how it works. A copy of the transcript was provided to The Associated Press by Vela's father.
The Washington Post, which first reported the existence of the "baiting" program, cited the sworn statement of Capt. Matthew P. Didier, the leader of a Ranger sniper scout platoon.
"Baiting is putting an object out there that we know they will use, with the intention of destroying the enemy," Didier said in the statement. "Basically, we would put an item out there and watch it. If someone found the item, picked it up and attempted to leave with the item, we would engage the individual as I saw this as a sign they would use the item against U.S. forces."
The Post said the program was devised by the Army's Asymmetric Warfare Group, which advises commanders on more effective methods in today's unconventional conflicts, including ways to combat roadside bombs.
Within months of the "baiting" program's introduction, three snipers in Didier's platoon were charged with murder for allegedly using those items and others to make shootings seem legitimate, according to the Post.
The Post said that although it doesn't appear that the three alleged shootings were specifically part of the classified program, defense attorneys argue that the program may have encouraged them by blurring the legal lines in a complex war zone.
The court martial of one of the accused soldiers, Spec. Jorge Sandoval Jr., is scheduled to begin in Baghdad on Wednesday. Also facing premeditated murder charges are Vela and Staff Sgt. Michael Hensley.
They are part of the Headquarters and Headquarters Company, 1st Battalion, 501st Infantry Regiment, 4th Brigade (Airborne), 25th Infantry Division, based at Fort Richardson, Alaska.
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Nothing wrong with a little bait in my book. Do what ever it takes. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by watrulookinat
Nothing wrong with a little bait in my book. Do what ever it takes.
+100 -
Makes for a more clear shot ! 0 -
I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm not saying it's wrong or that these men did anything wrong, only that I'm uncomfortable with some aspects of it.
Mind you, dropping something as specialized as det cord to rope in some jihadi screwhead is fine - det cord is, at least in my book, some pretty specialized material and if they're going for it, chances are they know what it is and should be dealt with accordingly.
But if it's something a little more ambiguous, like a rifle, for example, that's where it gets into a gray area for me. I mean, if our neighborhoods were like Baghdad and I saw what appeared to be a free gun? Hell, I'd try to put that puppy in my collection pronto. Doesn't make me a terrorist though (although I'm sure many here would disagree).0 -
I say throw some Slim Jim snacks down on the street! 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
I'm not sure I agree with this. I'm not saying it's wrong or that these men did anything wrong, only that I'm uncomfortable with some aspects of it.
Mind you, dropping something as specialized as det cord to rope in some jihadi screwhead is fine - det cord is, at least in my book, some pretty specialized material and if they're going for it, chances are they know what it is and should be dealt with accordingly.
But if it's something a little more ambiguous, like a rifle, for example, that's where it gets into a gray area for me. I mean, if our neighborhoods were like Baghdad and I saw what appeared to be a free gun? Hell, I'd try to put that puppy in my collection pronto. Doesn't make me a terrorist though (although I'm sure many here would disagree).
Wow. Almost my thoughts verbatim.
Although it wouldn't take our neighborhoods being like Baghdad to make me want to pick up a free rifle.[:p]0 -
They are doing them a favor:
Having to see 'em virgins sooner
and
not dying tired [}:)].0 -
SO 0 -
Who wouldn't like a bit of free rope.???
People not knowing what the heck it is - would probably mistake it for rope... and go for it... and get shot.
In my book, baiting with det.cord.. is kind of flawed.
But who cares...0 -
"To prevent the enemy from learning about our tactics, techniques and training procedures, we don't discuss specific methods targeting enemy combatants," said Paul Boyce, an Army spokesman.
Not Guilty!!! Nuff Said!!!0 -
I was thinking about this yesterday. How about a covert operation in which a couple of nukes are sold to the Iraqis. They are then given a few hours to hide them at which point we remotely detonate them. 0 -
quote:US Snipers Allegedly "Bait" Iraqis
Hey great idea. Maybe we could use bait to lure OBL. Since he dyed his beard black to attract a younger goat, we could use an especially cute one to pull him out of hiding.[;)]0 -
Would someone give me a description of what det cord looks like?
Does this stuff work on electricity, or do you just light it?0 -
...and what is the problem with this? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
Would someone give me a description of what det cord looks like?
Does this stuff work on electricity, or do you just light it?
It looks kinda' like fuse only a different color.
JM0 -
They should just leave these guys alone and let them do their job....novel idea, eh? 0 -
Looks like plastic coated cloths line.Need a "cap" to set it off, and it BURNS very fast.
Jeff0 -
I don't believe its a stupid article or a stupid thread...I believe its stupid justice..for men trying to follow orders and get the job done..we are not over there to play tiddly winks with these scum bags if you are so inclined to pick up det cord..then you are probably going to see it put to use by you or others..rifles too. although I doubt they are using AKs to bait them there's probably only a couple million floating around over there...keep baiting..Loko 0 -
Whatever works is good for me.
Think that all those that think this is bad, should try their behind on the line and see if some scum sucking leftist lawyer should try to tell them how to do their job.
Good answer, bye the way, from the Army.0 -
EMM--I'm actually going to have to agree with you on this one [:D]
Believe it or not, good guns are not easy to come by in Iraq unless you're oen of the bad guys. I constantly had Iraqi Police begging me to give them a gun they could keep for home protection because many of them did not get issued side-arms. Now, if you can P.I.D. a specific person and know for a fact who they are and you're just trying to get them to come out for a clear shot then use a friggin' sheep if that's what it takes. Some targets can be P.I.D.'d and shot on sight regardless of whether or not they are doing something illegal or demonstrating a threat.
This "bait" trick has been used since the beginning of the war. This is absolutely nothing new. Iraqi police would drive Iraqi police vehicles in convoy. pretend one broke down and abandoned it. Insurgents would come out with fuel cans and start dousing it with gasoline in order to set it on fire. Snipers would pick their targets off with ease.0 -
If you wanna catch a rat, you use cheese.
In this case, its det cord. Same thing, the rat is cought.0 -
AHhhhh, Heck we in Law Enforcement have been using bait for years. We put speed limit signs along the side of roadways so that the folks driving by can try and exceed the limits in their little fast hoopty cars. Then we stop them, write them a traffic citation, and use the proceeds to fund our end of the year Christmas party.[:D]
Trinity +++0 -
geesh. guy uses a little salt lick to bag a deer and he gets yelled at by the game warden.[8] 0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
Mind you, dropping something as specialized as det cord to rope in some jihadi screwhead is fine - det cord is, at least in my book, some pretty specialized material and if they're going for it, chances are they know what it is and should be dealt with accordingly.
EMM,
I'm off the subject here but when I was in Viet Nam I knew of ARVNS tying NVA prisoners to trees and wrapping them with considerable lenghts of det cord and setting them off in front of other prisoners.
War IS Hell0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
Would someone give me a description of what det cord looks like?
Does this stuff work on electricity, or do you just light it?
Allen Griggs,
If it's the same today as it was in the late '60s it's an off white smooth plastic flexible tube like "cord" around 1/4" - 3/8" in diameter and is set of by a blasting cap detonated either by electricity or a time fuse. It's primary function is to connect multiple explosive charges in a "chain", resulting in near simultaneous ignition of all the charges.
It's my guess that the "targets" know exactly what it is, and would think it useful for improvised explosive devices. They won't fall for this trap very long.0 -
Can you light det cord with a cigarette lighter? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by allen griggs
Can you light det cord with a cigarette lighter?
Never tried to light it. I believe it's like most high explosives in that it takes the smaller explosion of a blasting cap to cause it to explode. My guess is that if you could light it it would burn like C4 but not explode. We used to cook our CRats with C4 by improvising a "stove" from an empty CRat can and lighting a small ball of C4 in it and setting the can of CRats on it. Worked great.0 -
Myers and Vela's father, Curtis Carnahan of Idaho Falls, Idaho, said in separate interviews that sworn statements and testimony in the cases of two other accused Ranger snipers indicate that the Army has a classified program that encourages snipers to "bait" potential targets and then kill whoever takes the bait.
And Akmed the insurgent wouldn't figure this out after a couple of times?0 -
Iraqis know what det cord is. They know what a case of ball bearings, det cord and a bunch of electricity generating devices found in the trunk of your car can get you in Abu Gehraib (SP?). 0 -
What is the problem of using bait? I use bait every time I set a trap to catch a mouse, rat, raccoon, etc. Get the picture? 0
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