This coyote suffering rant
With the way the the members feel about one of the worst pests in the USA I would think that Dr Jack Kevorkian would be a far more popular guy....oddly enough many of you that would worry about how cleanly you dispatch a healthy coyote would think nothing of letting your own mother lay in in a hospital bed suffering for 6 months begging to die!!! Go figure!!!
Nuf said!!!
Nuf said!!!
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quote:Originally posted by tobefree
With the way the the members feel about one of the worst pests in the USA I would think that Dr Jack Kevorkian would be a far more popular guy....oddly enough many of you that would worry about how cleanly you dispatch a healthy coyote would think nothing of letting your own mother lay in in a hospital bed suffering for 6 months begging to die!!! Go figure!!!
Nuf said!!!
Excellent point!0 -
A couple of observations and comments:
First, let it be said that coyotes are merely doing their natural thing. They aren't evil, though their interests and ours may be at odds. Having agreed upon this point (I hope)...
There's a difference between hunting and pest eradication. Hunting is generally considered a sport. Granted, it's a sport where the hunted often becomes dinner, but it's also a game of respect. A good hunter has a responsibility to place a killing shot and to dispatch his quarry quickly and humanely. Even those I consider a meat hunters (not sportsmen) have the same obligation to their victims. Yes, I said victims as there is no sport in meat hunting! (And I'm not saying that meat hunting is bad.)
Pest eradication is different. A decade or so ago our property suffered a rat infestation. Luckily they didn't get into our home. Nasty, sneaky devils though! They had holes everywhere and were causing significant damage. I baited them with poison, but the most effective eradication method seemed to be a load of shot. Believe me, I didn't get too worried about my intended victim as long as I tagged him.
The difference being that I wasn't hunting in this case. Fair play was the last thing on my mind as was sport. In other words we were at war. War is played by a different set of rules. The winner is the one who puts his opponent down. Form, propriety, and sportsmanship don't win wars!
So... If Mr. & Mrs. Coyote happen to be slimming the grouse and rabbit population, then I might elect to hunt them. If I do, then we play by sportsman's rules and I do my very best to make a clean kill just as they do their very best to see that I don't make a kill at all. A deadly game? Yes! But as fair a game as can be found in nature.
When Mr.& Mrs. Coyote appear in my yard and attempt to hijack a member of my family (pets included), then all bets are off. While I'll still attempt a clean kill, I really have no care other than to get a piece of my intended victim. No courtesy will be extended to those who attack me or mine. My sole intention will be to inflict as much damage as possible and I care not one wit whether there's suffering involved.
Gentlemen, there IS a difference here! Let's be big enough to realize it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tobefree
With the way the the members feel about one of the worst pests in the USA I would think that Dr Jack Kevorkian would be a far more popular guy....oddly enough many of you that would worry about how cleanly you dispatch a healthy coyote would think nothing of letting your own mother lay in in a hospital bed suffering for 6 months begging to die!!! Go figure!!!
Nuf said!!!
You make a wrong assumption. I have no problem with assisted suicide at all for terminal patients in pain. The pain is the key thing as nothing should be forced to suffer, human or other than human.
If you call yourself a human and care nothing, or even enjoy the suffering of non-humans, that makes you a sadist. How long before the thrill subsides and you move on to humans?0 -
quote:Originally posted by p3skyking
quote:Originally posted by tobefree
With the way the the members feel about one of the worst pests in the USA I would think that Dr Jack Kevorkian would be a far more popular guy....oddly enough many of you that would worry about how cleanly you dispatch a healthy coyote would think nothing of letting your own mother lay in in a hospital bed suffering for 6 months begging to die!!! Go figure!!!
Nuf said!!!
You make a wrong assumption. I have no problem with assisted suicide at all for terminal patients in pain. The pain is the key thing as nothing should be forced to suffer, human or other than human.
If you call yourself a human and care nothing, or even enjoy the suffering of non-humans, that makes you a sadist. How long before the thrill subsides and you move on to humans?
I did not point the finger at any single person....Fact is the Dr Jack thingy Has been covered here before and he is considered a piece of crap by most.... Only God can judge Dr Jack..no man could possibly know if his intent was murder or to end suffering...Personally I think he is a stand up guy who took the heat for what he truly believed to be right...
to me the very saddest aspect of American society is the fact that that a person can get an abortion, taking the life of a person without his or her committing any crime other than relying on the wrong person to be his mother. And then tell a full grown rational adult laying there in a hospital bed suffering with an illness that will only have one outcome, Sorry about your luck. You just lay there and suffer. What the hell do you think, that you should have the same right as a "Freaking Dog"0 -
Nord, you nailed it!
P3 - Once again you use the word suffering? I am not claiming to be an expert on animal neurology, but I am pretty sure their nervous systems are different than ours and that they feel pain differently than humans do. Also there is the fact that they are not capable of rational thought, therefore how can you use suffering do describe what they go through. Using that word in the context that you use it should be reserved for humans. If you look at the definitions for "suffering" almost every example references humans.
Now that being said, I somewhat agree with you that you should not intentially wound an animal without intending to kill it humanely, and that the animals deserve respect. But I am not going to afford them the same courtesy that I would a human. Plus, chasing after a wounded animal in an attempt to "put it out of its misery" is downright dangerous.0 -
Nord, that was a very articulate article, and all of it very true, while ive never hunted a day in my life, i can imagine a clean kill would be best, i have had to dispatch a few varmints, and i tried to do it quickly and cleanly but if not, hey, thats the way the cookie crumbles. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
Nord, you nailed it!
P3 - Once again you use the word suffering? I am not claiming to be an expert on animal neurology, but I am pretty sure their nervous systems are different than ours and that they feel pain differently than humans do. Also there is the fact that they are not capable of rational thought, therefore how can you use suffering do describe what they go through. Using that word in the context that you use it should be reserved for humans. If you look at the definitions for "suffering" almost every example references humans.
Now that being said, I somewhat agree with you that you should not intentially wound an animal without intending to kill it humanely, and that the animals deserve respect. But I am not going to afford them the same courtesy that I would a human. Plus, chasing after a wounded animal in an attempt to "put it out of its misery" is downright dangerous.
I am shocked that anyone could even say there is a question about animals feeling pain and suffering. The net is loaded with scientific studies showing that they do. One need only search "Do animals feel pain"
Biology
Address:http://www.animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/Morality/Biology/Biology-index.htm Changed:6:08 PM on Thursday, June 7, 2007
As far as feeling emotion in the higher animals, search "Koko" for further study. An excellent video on the Discovery Channel was "Why Dogs Smile and Chimpanzes Cry".
Any person that has not kept up with this subject must have chosen that course as the information is easily available everywhere. And not just from the animal rights groups.0 -
Never did I say that they don't feel pain. What I said was that they don't feel it the same way that humans do. Also, I stated that suffering is a term that relates to what a human feels. It has a mental component that animals are not capable of. A human's nervous system is different and we are capable of rationalizing where the pain came from and to what extent we are feeling it. The conclusions derived from the studies done on animals are flawed in my opinion. People want to attach human emotions to animals. The science behind them might be right, such as measuring the electrical impulses along the nerves and such. But, relating them to human emotions is going a little too far. We cannot actually know what the animal is feeling, because they cannot communicate with us. If a scientist says that they can tell what an animal is trying to communicate to us, he/she is fooling themselves. Animals communicate their desires using learned traits. Wether those traites were learned from their parents/siblings (such as in the wild) or from humans (for domesticated animals), it doesn't matter. Emotions are rooted in the brain and in the soul. Animals do not have the capability of higher thought processes, therefore their "emotions" are far more basic. Suffering is a higher emotion/feeling.
As for using Koko as an example, chimps are the closest things to humans on this planet. Comparing a chimp to a coyote is comparing apples to oranges.0 -
quote:tobefree:
Go figure!!!
Nuf said!!!
The Bible: An animal's suffering must be relieved (Deuteronomy 12:4)
and my family has always considered it the right thing to do.
Go figure!!!
Nuf said!!!0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
Never did I say that they don't feel pain. What I said was that they don't feel it the same way that humans do. Also, I stated that suffering is a term that relates to what a human feels. It has a mental component that animals are not capable of. A human's nervous system is different and we are capable of rationalizing where the pain came from and to what extent we are feeling it. The conclusions derived from the studies done on animals are flawed in my opinion. People want to attach human emotions to animals. The science behind them might be right, such as measuring the electrical impulses along the nerves and such. But, relating them to human emotions is going a little too far. We cannot actually know what the animal is feeling, because they cannot communicate with us. If a scientist says that they can tell what an animal is trying to communicate to us, he/she is fooling themselves. Animals communicate their desires using learned traits. Wether those traites were learned from their parents/siblings (such as in the wild) or from humans (for domesticated animals), it doesn't matter. Emotions are rooted in the brain and in the soul. Animals do not have the capability of higher thought processes, therefore their "emotions" are far more basic. Suffering is a higher emotion/feeling.
As for using Koko as an example, chimps are the closest things to humans on this planet. Comparing a chimp to a coyote is comparing apples to oranges.
We're not talking about suffering on an emotional level, we're talking about suffering as the feeling of intense, prolonged physical pain. Animals DO suffer.0 -
I was weedeating yesterday and noticed a frog I had hit with the weedeater. It had a mangled leg and was trying to hop away with one leg. I couldn't let it just it lay there, so I put it out of it's misery. It was ironic to me after the intense discussion yesterday about the coyote. I'm not judging anyone, in my past I have brought suffering upon animals and humans alike. There are all kinds of circumstances, but overall, I think most people will agree that it is troubling to us to see an animal suffer when you have the power to do otherwise. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by zipperzap
quote:tobefree:
Go figure!!!
Nuf said!!!
The Bible: An animal's suffering must be relieved (Deuteronomy 12:4)
and my family has always considered it the right thing to do.
Go figure!!!
Nuf said!!!
Zip (Deuteronomy 12:4) does not say that at all!!!
It says "Ye shall not do so unto the LORD your God."
And is referring to 1-3
12:1 These [are] the statutes and judgments, which ye shall observe to do in the land, which the LORD God of thy fathers giveth thee to possess it, all the days that ye live upon the earth.
12:2 Ye shall utterly destroy all the places, wherein the nations which ye shall possess served their gods, upon the high mountains, and upon the hills, and under every green tree:
12:3 And ye shall overthrow their altars, and break their pillars, and burn their groves with fire; and ye shall hew down the graven images of their gods, and destroy the names of them out of that place.
Try again!!!0 -
And I think anyone can see that my argument isn't really about the suffering of animals. It is about some peoples stupid acceptance that an animal deserves the consideration of not having to suffer but I a human being I choose to end my suffering I am some kind of coward for I choose not to grin and bear it!!!
And if you want to bring the Bible thumping in to this. It is more than obvious to me that when Jesus refused to fight for or even try to justify his actions he placed little value to his own human existence. Fact is, how you died don't mean crap...it is how you lived that will ultimatly determine your final destination.0 -
what about trapping, is that torture?? cuz i like trapping, but cleanly and quickly dispatch the animal once caught 0 -
quote:Originally posted by akfanatik
what about trapping, is that torture?? cuz i like trapping, but cleanly and quickly dispatch the animal once caught
Dude, it don't freaking matter!!! The nature of life is a consent battle with pain and suffering. We sit here and judge one another, forgetting the all imporant rule. Judge not, that you be not judged.0 -
Never having really thought about it, this is a provocative discussion.
I have always done my best to kill quickly and cleanly - it has never occurred to me to do otherwise. But I haven't thought much about it.
Coming down a country road near my house one evening, I came upon three or four cars stopped in the street. People were standing around a doe that had been hit by a car but not killed. Her spine was broken. I knelt beside her and slit her throat. I was in my wife's car, and did not have a firearm.
The people acted like I had committed an atrocity. A farmer that lived nearby stopped and thanked me for putting her down and asked if he could have her for meat. I said "sure", and got the hell out of there.
For the life of me, I still can't understand what was going through their heads.
Doug0 -
Only thing to do!!! 0 -
I would have (and have done) the same.
Just because I don't look at animals the same way that I look at humans doesn't mean that I don't respect the heck out of them.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tobefree
With the way the the members feel about one of the worst pests in the USA I would think that Dr Jack Kevorkian would be a far more popular guy....oddly enough many of you that would worry about how cleanly you dispatch a healthy coyote would think nothing of letting your own mother lay in in a hospital bed suffering for 6 months begging to die!!! Go figure!!!
Nuf said!!!
I thik that you'll find that many people support assisted suicide for the terminally ill. I know that if my doc said that I had terminal cancer and all I had left to look forward to was 6 months of pain, I'd ask for a weapon while I could still pull the trigger.
Unfortunately our government and other leaders (such as religious, etc.) seem to support a sick "cult of survival", you can't really call it a "cult of life", I don't consider being strapped to a hospital bed in chronic pain to be "living".
FYI: I read somewhere that in WWII German medics were issued Lugers or P-38s, since they were still non-combatants the pistol was not to shoot at allied soldiers. Our side, on the other hand, would try to keep alive a man who only had 2 painful hours or less left.0 -
tobefree,
I raise beef cattle and some sheep on my land, and this year alone I have lost three spring calves, and several lambs to coyotes. There is a ton of wild game in my area that they could hunt, but they would rather go for the easy dinner instead. I kill everyone I come across, and I even bait them at times with a deer carcass, or other dead critters. But, with a full time job it is hard to be there all the time. I average about three to four yotes a year, and I have not even begun to put a dent in their population. More get hit by cars around here than get shot by landowners. A friend of mine has a video of me on my ATV chasing after one, Kimber 45 in hand trying to take it out. It got away, because it could turn quicker then I could. Personally to me the only good yote is a dead yote![}:)]
Trinity +++0 -
quote:Originally posted by TrinityScrimshaw
Personally to me the only good yote is a dead yote![}:)]
Trinity +++
If you've been following my posts from the beginning of this two day pointless rant...That is exactly what I said0 -
tobefree, i totally agree with you, this is the way its been for millions of years, and we are the top of the food chain 0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
Nord, you nailed it!
P3 - Once again you use the word suffering? I am not claiming to be an expert on animal neurology, but I am pretty sure their nervous systems are different than ours and that they feel pain differently than humans do. Also there is the fact that they are not capable of rational thought, therefore how can you use suffering do describe what they go through. Using that word in the context that you use it should be reserved for humans. If you look at the definitions for "suffering" almost every example references humans.
Now that being said, I somewhat agree with you that you should not intentially wound an animal without intending to kill it humanely, and that the animals deserve respect. But I am not going to afford them the same courtesy that I would a human. Plus, chasing after a wounded animal in an attempt to "put it out of its misery" is downright dangerous.
If you are really scared of the critters maybe you should stay out of the woods. [:D]0 -
tobefree,
I have not been following your post, but I do follow your frame of mind![;)]
Trinity +++0 -
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
If you are really scared of the critters maybe you should stay out of the woods. [:D]
I never said I was scared. I am not stupid either. I have seen a small dog do serious damage. Imagine what a P-Oed coyote would do?
The other thing that I would like to point out is that I have probably killed (notice I say killed, not harvested. Harvested is what you do with corn or soybeans) more animals in my life than a majority of the people who post on this site. I have no factual proof for this, it is just my gut feeling.0 -
I consider hunting to include eating the animal. Who on here eats Coyote? Speak up... 0 -
quote:Originally posted by TrinityScrimshaw
tobefree,
I raise beef cattle and some sheep on my land, and this year alone I have lost three spring calves, and several lambs to coyotes. There is a ton of wild game in my area that they could hunt, but they would rather go for the easy dinner instead. I kill everyone I come across, and I even bait them at times with a deer carcass, or other dead critters. But, with a full time job it is hard to be there all the time. I average about three to four yotes a year, and I have not even begun to put a dent in their population. More get hit by cars around here than get shot by landowners. A friend of mine has a video of me on my ATV chasing after one, Kimber 45 in hand trying to take it out. It got away, because it could turn quicker then I could. Personally to me the only good yote is a dead yote![}:)]
Trinity +++
...The ATV story is bound to bring some criticism. "Not sporting", or some such. It's not sport. It's eradicating a poacher. I've tagged one from the seat of my son's dirt bike, with a Ruger MKI and believe me, there's nothing easy about it. (probably more dangerous for me than the 'yote)
...I wouldn't want to eradicate coyotes. I like to listen to them. I wouldn't want to eradicate skunks, just those in my shed. Field mice are fine food for raptors, just stay out of my house. A few gophers in my yard? Fine. I'm not grooming a golf course here. We all draw lines, it's just that the lines are sometimes jagged and irregular.0 -
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
I consider hunting to include eating the animal. Who on here eats Coyote? Speak up...
I ate dog when I was in Korea. Does that count?
I bet they are good with BBQ sauce!0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
quote:Originally posted by select-fire
I consider hunting to include eating the animal. Who on here eats Coyote? Speak up...
I ate dog when I was in Korea. Does that count?
I bet they are good with BBQ sauce!
I've ate BBQ cat ribs0 -
quote:Originally posted by HandgunHTR52
quote:Originally posted by JamesRK
If you are really scared of the critters maybe you should stay out of the woods. [:D]
I never said I was scared. I am not stupid either. I have seen a small dog do serious damage. Imagine what a P-Oed coyote would do?
The other thing that I would like to point out is that I have probably killed (notice I say killed, not harvested. Harvested is what you do with corn or soybeans) more animals in my life than a majority of the people who post on this site. I have no factual proof for this, it is just my gut feeling.
I might not follow a bear into a brush pile, or try to kick a cougar out of a cave, but if I had one of those 65 yard shotguns, I would probably try to finish off a 50# injured coyote.
About that gut feeling, try Maalox.[;)]0
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