question for leo
Say the cops come to a house and find marijuana and paraphernalia in that house and the mother is there should she or should she not be arrested?
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There's another post of a cop struggling with a suspect while people walk by and do nothing.
Have you ever had a citizen help you make an arrest, help you handcuff a subject or wrestle someone to the ground or anything like that? Did you appreciate the help or did the citizen get in the way?0 -
there has been much discussion on a local news website forum here where i live about the omaha shootings. the anti-gun group say that the average citizen with a gun either oc/cc should not have shot back at the mall shooter if given the opportunity. they state we do not have the needed training to go it safely. i believe one poster refered to use as "gun toting cowboy yahoos".
my questions, how much range time do you spend after the academy? i know you qualify each year, but what type of standards are you held to? (as for accuracy) thanks0 -
liberal hog wash. i am not a LEO nor do i play one on TV. but i go shoot at least once a week 0 -
Is the average LEO a better shot than the average gun owner? sure
Is the average dedicated non-LEO shooter better than the average LEO? absolutely
Shooting in a crowded mall would certainly be taking a calculated risk. However, anyone who carries regularly should have enough confidence in their abilities to take the necessary shot to end an active shooter threat.0 -
quote:Originally posted by bhale187
Is the average LEO a better shot than the average gun owner? sure
Is the average dedicated non-LEO shooter better than the average LEO? absolutely
Shooting in a crowded mall would certainly be taking a calculated risk. However, anyone who carries regularly should have enough confidence in their abilities to take the necessary shot to end an active shooter threat.
Spot on.[:)]0 -
When I went into LE in 1973 there was minimal training, including firearms. In 1974 Criminal Justice Standards was passed and some training was required. Prior to that you were sworn in and issued a firearm. People like me that had been shooting a lot already,(my father put a .22 revolver in my hand and taught me to shoot when I was 6) went out and practiced. When required qualification started it was found that some people couldn't even open their revolver, their ammo was so nasty and green! Some had been carrying firearms that would not function at all. Fortunately this changed rapidly, weapons were up-graded and training got better. But it was never enough for many of us, who practiced regularly with our own ammo. I reloaded so I had a lot of guys shooting with me who otherwise might not have had the resources to do so. From about the mid-80s training improved where today it is very good but still not enough. Scores had to be 80 or better on standard FBI courses. It took a lot of shooting on your own to really be competent. This was my experience with my dept., I am sure there are many better examples where training is more intense, and not limited by budget worries. Ammo and training was one of the last things considered by my dept. most of the time. Sad but true. 0 -
"what type of standards are you held to? (as for accuracy) thanks"
don't know, but over the years of hearing on the news of about how many shots police officers have fired at a person or persons would tend to make me wonder!0 -
Being able to shoot in a combat situation is something that you have to train for, it is not something that the average person comes normally equipped.
I have seen competent range shooters totally fall apart under combat circumstances. And I have seem only marginally competent range shooter make incredibly lucky shots.
The local talking heads can espouse any thing they like, but my money is on the CCW person that is faced with someone that intends to commit suicide anyway. Perhaps armed resistance at the beginning of this shooters acting out phase would have brought about the self inflicted end much sooner.0 -
"gun toting cowboy yahoos". That kind of statement is called "posioning the well". It is used to manipulate the listener into believeing that a person that is debateing one side of a issue is less intelligent. Posioning the well is often followed by "appeal to authority" this is meant to manipulate a person into believeing a person is of higher intelligence or educated on the issue debated. Used together the effect is suppost ot be listen to me I'm smart but don't listen to him he's stupid. During Bill Clinton's first term Hillery was out promoting health care. She used this technique beautifully and no one challenged it. If you hear a politician, news station or news paper, excluding editorials, use this method of arguement suspect their objectivity. 0 -
Im one of our Division's Range Instructors and I get to enjoy a good bit of time on the range. As far as a citizen taking out a killer on a rampage, I would think that anyone with common sense could dispatch a shooter killing all in his sight. If not you need some classes and some more range time. But I would think one would have to have some type skill or training to want and be able to carry for protection. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by fizzer
my questions, how much range time do you spend after the academy? i know you qualify each year, but what type of standards are you held to? (as for accuracy) thanks
In Illinois we use to shoot 50 rds at the 7, 15, and 25 yrd lines. I think it was 24 at the 7yd, 18 at the 15, and 8 at the 25 yard line. The shots were in timed intervals such as 3 rds in 6 seconds, 2 rounds-reload 2 rounds in 9 seconds, etc. The course was ridiculously easy, as you only had to hit an 8.5" x 11" traget 37 of 50 times.
Than about 18 months ago the Illinois training and standards board decided to redo the course making it easier for retired LEOs to pass. Now you don't shoot past the 15 yard line, and you shoot as close as 5 yrds.
The national norm is to qualify 2 times per year, that's hardly enough to keep anyone a competent shooter.0 -
"what type of standards are you held to? (as for accuracy) thanks"
I understand that in TX, a LEO doesn't even have to hit a skunk with a shotgun.....0 -
quote:Originally posted by mowart
"what type of standards are you held to? (as for accuracy) thanks"
I understand that in TX, a LEO doesn't even have to hit a skunk with a shotgun.....
his wife must be able to kill it with a .38 though!
Just teasing, He did hit the skunk, just not a kill shot...[}:)]0 -
I'm not an LEO, never have been, never will. But I watch'em. And it seems to me that in most departments, you've got at least one or two folks who are 'gunnies'. They study the art, and the science, and they practice the execution of armed conflict, so that they will be prepared if the need arises.
Then you have LEO's who are given a gun, and wear one because they must. I suspect they do the minimum when it comes to qualifying, and shoot very little any other time.
Give me a choice? I'll take the gunny anytime, whether he's an LEO or just a well armed and practiced 'citizen', to protect me and mine.
Sahagan0 -
Well, we used to shoot three times a year but some idiots came in and did a management study and found that we shot too much. Now we shoot twice a year. We are required by state law to shoot a 72% once a year. For some of the Officers here that is all the shooting that they ever do, twice a year/50 rounds. We are now trying to get some training time in between but it is frustrating.
I personally shoot more than most but less than just a few. I used to shoot SASS competitions once or twice a month but my schedule changed when we went into the twelve hour shifts so I don't get to shoot as often.
I'd say that in a situation like a shooter in the mall it would depend on what type of weapon I had on me at the time. If I was carrying my Colt Det. Special I'd probably take the shot if I could get in close for a head shot. If I had my small .380, I'd probably stay out of it unless I could find a shotgun or rifle somewhere, or I could rush in and screw that .380 in an eye socket or nostril.
This is not a cut and dry situation, lots of things come into play. I would not fault anyone for "not getting involved" if they felt like they were either not capable or not properly armed for such an incident.
Bode0 -
quote:Originally posted by fizzer
there has been much discussion on a local news website forum here where i live about the omaha shootings. the anti-gun group say that the average citizen with a gun either oc/cc should not have shot back at the mall shooter if given the opportunity. they state we do not have the needed training to go it safely. i believe one poster refered to use as "gun toting cowboy yahoos".
my questions, how much range time do you spend after the academy? i know you qualify each year, but what type of standards are you held to? (as for accuracy) thanks
As to how much range time spent after academy graduation, that depends on the agency and whatever policy and liability conscientiousness they have.
Firearms training is primarily split. One part being the required Peace Officer Standards and Training (POST) requirements, the other part being tactical, scenario based and simunitions training.
POST Qualification in Arizona requires a yearly live fire, "paper" shoot with a minimum score of 210 out of a possible 250 score, this on a 50 round qualification. Targets are silhouette style, with a variety of styles used.
We use a photographic silhouette of a "bad guy, pointing a handgun at you, with a center mass area scoring rectangle. Anything in that scores 5 points. Anything outside it, even if a body hit is a zero.
POST also requires a yearly "judgemental" qualification, e.g. a series of shoot-don't shoot scenarios. 100% judgement must be scored.
We use a MILO interactive system for most of our judgmentals, although we use actual scenarios with real personnel, using simunitions in our duty weapons at times. The MILO consists of a huge screen which projects actual interactive footage of a huge number of scenarios, each which has a number of variations which can be changes to suit the information given the officer performing. Officers are given a mock radio call for service and they must integrate actions and verbage into the scenario. MILO Taser, MILO shotgun and Milo duty gun accessories are in use, as in we use actual duty firearms, modified to interact with MILO. The MILO system has a "shoot back" feature which can shoot firm "foam" pellets at the officer in certain scenarios where gunfire is being exchanged.
Beyond all that, we hold frequent (at least every 2-3 months) "live fire" training sessions, where out training staff set up various types of training, using live rounds, where we may do anything from working on accuracy and trigger control, to endless malfunction drills, to scenario based live fire courses and/or a combination of all of the above.
We shoot a lot, but not enough to ensure our personnel "gain" a high degree of proficiency, merely enough to ensure that they can meet average standards. High proficiency must be sought off-duty and on your own time.
We simply don't have the time, or money to provide enough "trigger time" to make good shooters out of all our staff.0 -
I'm not an LEO, but I resent the biased opinion on the anti-gun left. They seem to believe that if you have not been aointed with the priesthood of being and LEO, then you will always be too careless and too stupid to ever use a firearm responisibly.
Yet it is not that hard. Just like driving a car, stop if someone is in your way. Just like using a camera, when your sight picture is right, click on it. The liberals are content with letting 16 yearold drivers roam our highways and with letting citizens keep a 90 day home supply of strong, potentially dangerous prescription drugs at home and of keeping extra gasoline in the shed in the backyard, but when it comes to guns in a liberal's mind we all become idiots.
Liberals just plain hate guns and gun owners. They hate and fear us lawful gun owners more than they hate the violent criminals. Why I do not know.
And liberals will try and tag us lawful gun owners with a distasteful name like "yahoo". Funny how they are quick to insult us but never talk that badly about the shooters who go on a rampage or just violent criminals in general.0
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