Last of the Zumbo Threads
We have seen in the past week how very fragile our bonds are with our selected "mouthpieces"-those we put in a position of authority espousing them with some index of the term expert in their chosen disciplines.
I did not know Jim Zumbo personally. I had likely read his work in passing at the local barber shop in Outdoor Life or some such type of hunting magazine.Not being an elk hunter, he is little more than unknown to me. Yet, despite this, I felt compelled to join the other wolves on the prowl and issue forth an opinion on his comments regarding semi-auto,military-styled, rifles. I admit, I wasn't making a full-on meal of it-but I tasted. My comments were along the lines of the fact that in moments of weakness and without much forethought, the true essence of our feelings comes out. Sorta like being really drunk. If you have little control over what you are saying, something very close to the truth (or at least unadulterated feelings) comes forth.
I feel bad for Jim Zumbo. His long and distinguished career is over. It is unrecoverable.I feel a slight twinge of guilt for ostracizing him (very slight) I believe he had some degree of it coming.I believe we have to live with our mistakes-he is living with his.
Many see this as a sign that America's gun owners are not asleep at the wheel. I only saw the slightest indication of that. I saw how efficiently the sharks smell blood in the water, and come to the source. I saw the best and worst of it. The worst was how quickly this guy was crucified. The best also was how quickly this guy was crucified. I only wish that collectively we could treat similar transgressions from those on the WRONG side of the debate the same, with the same level of disdain. I find it hard to believe we will.
After all, there is still a new "assault weapons" ban moving thru Congress, there are multitudes of local and state anti second amendment laws working their way through the system to take their place of shame and uselessness alongside the 20,000 other gun laws that currently effect no one but you and I. If America's gun owners weren't asleep at the wheel, I don't know what we are. We write our reps, we send money to NRA-ILA, GOAL, GOA, JFPO, et al, yet the juggernaut barely slows. Are we truly the minority? Most of the people I socialize with feel the same way I do about alot of things. Problem with that is I won't socialize with people who don't as a general rule. Those I don't agree with, yet see socially, are at least able to articulate some modicum of intelligent debate without turning shrill over it. I have little tolerance for much more than that.
If we weren't so apathetic about our diminishing rights, those who propose the legslation infringing on those rights would be afraid to do what they do. If those who continually made steps to limit or take away those rights met with some ill fate,untimely bad luck, or career suicide, it sends a message to the others. Obtuse as some may be, they may actually get this message. If they were met at every turn with the same disdain and intolerance they display towards our freedoms, they may get the message. I don't think they can be educated to the error of their ways. I do believe they can have the consequences of their ways outlined for them, demonstrated to them so they are properly treated for their negative behavior. Sorta like the dog who gets the paper for messing the floor. Problem is this dog isn't messing the floor, he's biting the neighbor kids.
Posted in Gun Rights too.
I did not know Jim Zumbo personally. I had likely read his work in passing at the local barber shop in Outdoor Life or some such type of hunting magazine.Not being an elk hunter, he is little more than unknown to me. Yet, despite this, I felt compelled to join the other wolves on the prowl and issue forth an opinion on his comments regarding semi-auto,military-styled, rifles. I admit, I wasn't making a full-on meal of it-but I tasted. My comments were along the lines of the fact that in moments of weakness and without much forethought, the true essence of our feelings comes out. Sorta like being really drunk. If you have little control over what you are saying, something very close to the truth (or at least unadulterated feelings) comes forth.
I feel bad for Jim Zumbo. His long and distinguished career is over. It is unrecoverable.I feel a slight twinge of guilt for ostracizing him (very slight) I believe he had some degree of it coming.I believe we have to live with our mistakes-he is living with his.
Many see this as a sign that America's gun owners are not asleep at the wheel. I only saw the slightest indication of that. I saw how efficiently the sharks smell blood in the water, and come to the source. I saw the best and worst of it. The worst was how quickly this guy was crucified. The best also was how quickly this guy was crucified. I only wish that collectively we could treat similar transgressions from those on the WRONG side of the debate the same, with the same level of disdain. I find it hard to believe we will.
After all, there is still a new "assault weapons" ban moving thru Congress, there are multitudes of local and state anti second amendment laws working their way through the system to take their place of shame and uselessness alongside the 20,000 other gun laws that currently effect no one but you and I. If America's gun owners weren't asleep at the wheel, I don't know what we are. We write our reps, we send money to NRA-ILA, GOAL, GOA, JFPO, et al, yet the juggernaut barely slows. Are we truly the minority? Most of the people I socialize with feel the same way I do about alot of things. Problem with that is I won't socialize with people who don't as a general rule. Those I don't agree with, yet see socially, are at least able to articulate some modicum of intelligent debate without turning shrill over it. I have little tolerance for much more than that.
If we weren't so apathetic about our diminishing rights, those who propose the legslation infringing on those rights would be afraid to do what they do. If those who continually made steps to limit or take away those rights met with some ill fate,untimely bad luck, or career suicide, it sends a message to the others. Obtuse as some may be, they may actually get this message. If they were met at every turn with the same disdain and intolerance they display towards our freedoms, they may get the message. I don't think they can be educated to the error of their ways. I do believe they can have the consequences of their ways outlined for them, demonstrated to them so they are properly treated for their negative behavior. Sorta like the dog who gets the paper for messing the floor. Problem is this dog isn't messing the floor, he's biting the neighbor kids.
Posted in Gun Rights too.
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none of my Guns are for Hunting so I could care less about an elitist like Zombo. However I would like to go to Sears and buy a Tommy gun like my grandpa could... There's still a lot of Godless commies out there... 0 -
quote:Originally posted by codenamepaul
We have seen in the past week how very fragile our bonds are with our selected "mouthpieces"-those we put in a position of authority espousing them with some index of the term expert in their chosen disciplines.
I did not know Jim Zumbo personally. I had likely read his work in passing at the local barber shop in Outdoor Life or some such type of hunting magazine.Not being an elk hunter, he is little more than unknown to me. Yet, despite this, I felt compelled to join the other wolves on the prowl and issue forth an opinion on his comments regarding semi-auto,military-styled, rifles. I admit, I wasn't making a full-on meal of it-but I tasted. My comments were along the lines of the fact that in moments of weakness and without much forethought, the true essence of our feelings comes out. Sorta like being really drunk. If you have little control over what you are saying, something very close to the truth (or at least unadulterated feelings) comes forth.
I feel bad for Jim Zumbo. His long and distinguished career is over. It is unrecoverable.I feel a slight twinge of guilt for ostracizing him (very slight) I believe he had some degree of it coming.I believe we have to live with our mistakes-he is living with his.
Many see this as a sign that America's gun owners are not asleep at the wheel. I only saw the slightest indication of that. I saw how efficiently the sharks smell blood in the water, and come to the source. I saw the best and worst of it. The worst was how quickly this guy was crucified. The best also was how quickly this guy was crucified. I only wish that collectively we could treat similar transgressions from those on the WRONG side of the debate the same, with the same level of disdain. I find it hard to believe we will.
After all, there is still a new "assault weapons" ban moving thru Congress, there are multitudes of local and state anti second amendment laws working their way through the system to take their place of shame and uselessness alongside the 20,000 other gun laws that currently effect no one but you and I. If America's gun owners weren't asleep at the wheel, I don't know what we are. We write our reps, we send money to NRA-ILA, GOAL, GOA, JFPO, et al, yet the juggernaut barely slows. Are we truly the minority? Most of the people I socialize with feel the same way I do about alot of things. Problem with that is I won't socialize with people who don't as a general rule. Those I don't agree with, yet see socially, are at least able to articulate some modicum of intelligent debate without turning shrill over it. I have little tolerance for much more than that.
If we weren't so apathetic about our diminishing rights, those who propose the legslation infringing on those rights would be afraid to do what they do. If those who continually made steps to limit or take away those rights met with some ill fate,untimely bad luck, or career suicide, it sends a message to the others. Obtuse as some may be, they may actually get this message. If they were met at every turn with the same disdain and intolerance they display towards our freedoms, they may get the message. I don't think they can be educated to the error of their ways. I do believe they can have the consequences of their ways outlined for them, demonstrated to them so they are properly treated for their negative behavior. Sorta like the dog who gets the paper for messing the floor. Problem is this dog isn't messing the floor, he's biting the neighbor kids.
Posted in Gun Rights too.
All excellent points. However, it may be that Zumbo really did stand up and beg for what he got. Reason being that I think many, many gun owners are somewhat angry and resentful about how there anti-gun side was smart and slick enough to latch onto the "assault weapons" term and so effectively use it to dishonestly harm all our gun rights. Reason being of course that the average American cannot own a true "machine gun" *(which if the term "assault rifle just has to be used would fit only a machine gun) and therefore cannot own a true "assault rifle". Heck, a 10 round .22 revolver will "spray" bullets just as fast as a 10 round AR-15. But the revolver is never, ever called an "assault weapon" (not yet anyway).
Anyway, back to the gun owners being angry and resentful. I also think that along with those feelings, many gun owners feel disenfranchised because they find it so difficult to get the honest attention of their elected representatives in regards to their gun rights. So basically Zumbo's comments, especially coming from a "gun guy" that makes a longtime, excellent living off of the hunting and shooting community, was just rubbing salt into an open wound.
But on the one hand, it appears Zumbo could have been "rehabilitated" and then maybe have started using his prominent position and following to have helped correct the misconceptions about "assault rifles". That option, if it was indeed possible, might have avoided destroying his careeer and might have allowed him to actually help with the battle to remove the stigma on the AR-15, civilian AK-47. etc.
On the other hand, it appears he did stand up and almost ask for it. We gun owners saw an easy way to give him what he was asking for and so we did.
Al-in-all a pretty simple and predictable process. Some wide-spread good may come of it because maybe it will send a message to other people in our industry and they will closely examine their unreasonable dislike for AR-15's or detachable mag semi-auto's, etc.0 -
Ate the meal. Even had an extra bag of chips and I don't feel bad at all. The question is how do we harness this awesome power we have discovered?
Zumbo represents the biggest problem with firearms owners today...they are lazy and are only worried about protecting the guns they have in the closet. "If my guns are not outlawed I'm ok." It is time for all firearms owners to worry more about the bigger picture involving the degradation of the 2nd amendment. Those supposed mouthpieces for hunter/shooter/owners/collectors had better decide if the they want help or not. If they are not helping than they deserve the same flaming that Zumbo got.0 -
codenamepaul wrote :
"...My comments were along the lines of the fact that in moments of weakness and without much forethought, the true essence of our feelings comes out. Sorta like being really drunk. If you have little control over what you are saying, something very close to the truth (or at least unadulterated feelings) comes forth."
Agreed. And if Zumbo had made his remarks into a live microphone at a press conference they might be more readily forgiven.
He claims they were made after a long, tiring day of hunting - and that he should have just hit the hay. Fine. But what about the next morning? His interviewer - obviously a hunter also - could've said to him, "Hey Zum, you sure this is what you want to say?" And what of the editors at the magazine? When the article was later submitted in black and white type don't you think cooler heads might've reconfirmed with Zumbo the sensitive nature of his comments prior to publication?
It's reasonable to assume then he had at least two outs and some weeks bewteen making the statements and going public with them.
I absolutely agree that the energy devoted to his sacrificial status could be better focused elsewhere. And I hope it wakes the NRA up to the idea it's members are growing tired of compromise.0 -
I would hope that the gun-owning anti-gunners take note of Zumbo..and the fact that just maybe its time to rift our ranks of those that believe in gun control.
You can not believe how weakened we as Second Amendment supporters ARE by gun owners supporting this or that gun law.
Better a small, solid group of PRO-Second Amendment people..then millions of people willing to give up the next law with barely a whimper...
Perhaps some of you that wrote Zumbo might drop him a note..."Go to Ted Nugent..throw yourself at his feet...and beg him to give you lessions about the Second Amendment".maybe he can come back, bigger...and BETTER...then ever.
Nugent is a deeply flawed instrument. He also is the only guy on the National scene WILLING to call anti-Gunners ANTI-AMERICAN...and for those anxious among us, worried about antagonizing those people...let me clue you. THEY ALREADY HATE YOUR GUTS..because you are willing to resist agression...and they have not the courage to do so....0 -
We, on this forum, - IMHO - need to take a "chill pill" from directing our wrath at Zumbo. Everyone saw what happened, I was one who communicated with him, and now we should get on with other real issues facing us --- the antigun folks. Zumbo is gone. Zumbo was not an anti-gun person. We cruficied him. I see posts that suggest the "other writers" will learn to "love" certain guns. They will not. They may learn to be careful in addressing them, but if they do not like them now, they will not likely like them in the future. I am one who does not like them. I did a small survey on this particular forum and received 90+% positive response for the "black guns." I must tell you that I am a hunter and a shooter. Have been since age 7 when I received my first 22. I am now 64 years old and a little wiser than some of you. I know many others with whom I hunt, shoot and talk guns. Not one of my acquaintences owns a "black gun." In my personal opinion the representation on this particular board is strongly oriented toward those of us that like them.
Before someone misinterprets my meaning, I am not opposed to you owning, shooting, or hunting with them. Furthermore, I agree with you that the 2nd amendment protects your right to own one (or more) whether you ever shoot or hunt with it(them). However, there are numerous gun owners that do not look with favor upon these particular weapons for recreational uses. That is a fact and the sacrifice of Mr. Zumbo's career will not change that fact.
We have an lengthy uphill battle to fight. Hopefully, this battle will extend pass my lifetime and my children and grandchildren will continue the struggle to keep our (to us) very important right. We, the gun owners, must be careful not to become segmented, not to attack each other, and not to alienate anyone who (in general) supports the common goal (private ownership of guns). We each need to remain viligent and communicate properly with our elected representatives (at the correct time). Organization and cohesiveness is the answer, not teeth and nails for anyone who does not agree with us as individuals. Education of the trap shooter, the hunter, or the paper puncher of the importance of supporting any reaction to "gun control" should be our objective. I suggest that we turn down the emotion a couple of notches and think. Read elkoholic's post again. He said something very important!!!!!!!!!!!!!0 -
quote:Originally posted by wtroper
We, on this forum, - IMHO - need to take a "chill pill" from directing our wrath at Zumbo. Everyone saw what happened, I was one who communicated with him, and now we should get on with other real issues facing us --- the antigun folks. Zumbo is gone. Zumbo was not an anti-gun person. We cruficied him. I see posts that suggest the "other writers" will learn to "love" certain guns. They will not. They may learn to be careful in addressing them, but if they do not like them now, they will not likely like them in the future. I am one who does not like them. I did a small survey on this particular forum and received 90+% positive response for the "black guns." I must tell you that I am a hunter and a shooter. Have been since age 7 when I received my first 22. I am now 64 years old and a little wiser than some of you. I know many others with whom I hunt, shoot and talk guns. Not one of my acquaintences owns a "black gun." In my personal opinion the representation on this particular board is strongly oriented toward those of us that like them.
Before someone misinterprets my meaning, I am not opposed to you owning, shooting, or hunting with them. Furthermore, I agree with you that the 2nd amendment protects your right to own one (or more) whether you ever shoot or hunt with it(them). However, there are numerous gun owners that do not look with favor upon these particular weapons for recreational uses. That is a fact and the sacrifice of Mr. Zumbo's career will not change that fact.
We have an lengthy uphill battle to fight. Hopefully, this battle will extend pass my lifetime and my children and grandchildren will continue the struggle to keep our (to us) very important right. We, the gun owners, must be careful not to become segmented, not to attack each other, and not to alienate anyone who (in general) supports the common goal (private ownership of guns). We each need to remain viligent and communicate properly with our elected representatives (at the correct time). Organization and cohesiveness is the answer, not teeth and nails for anyone who does not agree with us as individuals. Education of the trap shooter, the hunter, or the paper puncher of the importance of supporting any reaction to "gun control" should be our objective. I suggest that we turn down the emotion a couple of notches and think. Read elkoholic's post again. He said something very important!!!!!!!!!!!!!
I don't know where to start on this one...[xx(]0 -
Every body understand about anti-gun gun owners yet ? The woods are full of them...and the 4 milion NRA members are
mostly just that.
They WILL NOT understand about the Second Amendment..they STILL think it is about duck hunting..
quote:should get on with other real issues facing us --- the antigun folks. Zumbo is gone. Zumbo was not an anti-gun person.
Someone like this CANNOT represent the "Right to bear arms"..they do not understad what that is.0 -
Highball -- I disagree with you. They are duck hunters. They like or their passion is "hunting ducks." Clearly, they need a shotgun to hunt ducks. They may or not be concerned whether you or I can own "whatever," but their focus is hunting ducks. We need to educate them. If we lose our guns, the shotguns may be next. We do this with intelligent logical rational discussion. They like guns or they would not be duck hunters. However, they lack the passion that we have for the 2nd. But we do not want to alienate them, we want to educate them. That is my point. 0 -
quote:rational discussion. They like guns or they would not be duck hunters. However, they lack the passion that we have for the 2nd. But we do not want to alienate them, we want to educate them. That is my point
I have understood your 'point' for more years then you could possibly imagine.
1968 was "MY" total conversion to the Second Amendment...and away from the tyranny of present governments in America.
MY 'point' is simple. The time is late. Better to have 100 men that undestand the Constitution...then ten MILLON that believe that document gives the governent power over weapons.
I no longer have the desire to welcome as friends people that support gun laws..or believe that 'compromise' is the solution to out-of-control officials.0 -
Highball -- how then do you propose that we (you and I) educate them or "convert"them? 0 -
I have been struggling with that problem for lots of years.
No solution have I found. We cannot get mass media coverage of gun rights...the NRA would be the ideal medium..but they chose to ignore the main reason for the Second.
I cannot think of a way to gain mass attention in a populace conditioned to believe gun owners in general and 'black rifles' in particular are evil.
I have for many years taken ANYBODY that is willing to go to the range and learn to shoot..and furnished the arms and ammo.
I have given away various and sundry arms, over the years...hoping to plant a seed.
One at a time...and it isn't enough.
The ONLY solution I can see...is to allow the political hacks to pass a draconian gun law...one where people are FORCED to decide..."Am I an American..or will I obey this treasonist law..???0 -
I do not believe that we disagree. I have, as you have, tried to convert them one at a time. Get some, don't get others. However, you and I will continue to do that. Many others, here and elsewhere, do the same. We all will continue. In addition, the more political savvy that we are in our responses, the better the chance to influence the politicians -- IMHO. Just do not like to see us eat each other. [8D][8D] 0 -
wtroper;
I understand your position. I have sympathy for it.
I have also watched as that position brought us to 20,000 ++++ gun laws...and more on the way.
The only way to stop the juggernaut is for those in power to FEAR us...that indeed is why we don't have a gun ban today. NOT the NRA...as many believe.
No Sir...The Elites are aware that there are MANY old vets out here...that a gun ban will be taken personally...and those old vets will do what is necessary to right the wrong of a gun ban.
The part the NRA plays is to keep the administration informed as to what gun control will play today..what the masses will buy without a general upraising..That MAY not be their intent...but the level of pressure against any particular bill is funnelled directly to the Elites...and they modify it to suit.
I believe it is time to winnow out the wheat from the chaff...let us identify and OSTRACIZE the anti-gunners amoung us.Surely that cannot do anything but make us (Second Amendment supporters) stronger.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
wtroper;
I understand your position. I have sympathy for it.
I have also watched as that position brought us to 20,000 ++++ gun laws...and more on the way.
The only way to stop the juggernaut is for those in power to FEAR us...that indeed is why we don't have a gun ban today. NOT the NRA...as many believe.
No Sir...The Elites are aware that there are MANY old vets out here...that a gun ban will be taken personally...and those old vets will do what is necessary to right the wrong of a gun ban.
The part the NRA plays is to keep the administration informed as to what gun control will play today..what the masses will buy without a general upraising..That MAY not be their intent...but the level of pressure against any particular bill is funnelled directly to the Elites...and they modify it to suit.
I believe it is time to winnow out the wheat from the chaff...let us identify and OSTRACIZE the anti-gunners amoung us.Surely that cannot do anything but make us (Second Amendment supporters) stronger.
In red above. You have a point I had not thought about much before. If a national gun ban was instituted and a large group of pro-gun people fight to the death resisting such a ban, it would cause those who caused the ban, and all Americans watching, to think that just maybe a mistake was made.
But sadly, those resisting the ban would all be dead or in prison and the whole resistance soon nothing but history. There has to be a better way.0
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