Thought to ponder?
I know there are alot of people who believe there is nothing on the planet as good as the 1911 Handgun. And to a certain point Im right there with you. But in a night time situation say you were carrying your 1911 and if your like me, I carry a single Mag holder made by Bianchi. Two thugs jump out armed with a handgun and you are lucky enough to find cover and the perp fires at you, so then you return fire with your .45 acp. It appears this guy really wants what you have and is willing to do what ever it takes to get it. So the 3 of you exchange gunfire and before you know your slide locks back on the 8th RD. You grab your spare 8 RD Mag and again engage in returning gunfire. Now would you rather have the 16 RD .40 S&W or .357sig or the 17 RD 9MM. Be honest and remember we cant control these encounters the way we would like, but we can prepare for them.
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Problem with those of us in the private sector is that we need to conceal our carry. You attract too much attention with an exposed sidearm. The large calibers are better- can't beat a .45- but there are some mighty good rounds made for the 9mm. A 124 +P+ moving out at 1200 fps does a lot of damage. My Glock 26 with +2 extension means 13 rounds plus is small enough to covertly carry. I carry a spare mag in a fabric holder giving me 25 total.
ps: Kimber 45 is the best thing going, have that in my console. If I ever had the occasion to fire from my vehicle you bet I'll grab it first.0 -
quote:Originally posted by lt496
Note to self. Don't waste ammo shooting at nothing, or in laying down suppressive fire. Shoot when you have a target.
My .45 auto works fine for me, however, I often carry other makes, models and calibers than the 1911 in .45, depending on the time of year and what I am weariing/where I am going to be. I do generally carry 2 reloads, whether mags, speed strips, or speed loaders.
Realistically, most people who carry, do so as a "just in case" option and therefore do not carry a bunch of ammo.
+1 to the highlighted point. Suppressive fire only works when you have more than one person on your side, and more than one magazine per weapon. Suppressive fire is a good thing if you have the capability to use it properly. If you don't, it becomes a waste of ammo very fast. You need to fight intellegently when you're by yourself.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
I haven't heard of situations where most of the time you only use a couple rounds. Most actual shootings the adrenline is pounding so hard people unload the firearm without even realizing it. That's just what I hear from police officers that have dealt with the aftermath.
I'd love to see some actual statistics on the subject rather then peoples thoughts.I posted this awhile back. It contains some of these stats...
This study examined 89 law enforcement officer involved shooting incidents from across the US (primarily mid-western states) over a 10 year period. These incidents involved a total of 121 officers from 94 different agencies.
-In these 89 incidents, a total of 340 rounds were fired by officers.
-Each officer fired an average of less than 4 rounds.
-97% of the suspects shot by the officers died.
-No unintended persons were struck by officer's rounds.
-No officers were killed, but over 40% were wounded.
-75% of the officers were wearing body armor.
-In single officer/single suspect incidents the officers had an 80% accuracy rate.
-When more than one officer was involved their accuracy rate dropped to 60%.
-In 27% of the encounters multiple officers were present but only one officer fired.
-The top four circumstances in which these shootings occurred were investigation of suspicious persons/circumstances (32%), domestic calls (20%), vehicle stops (18%) and vehicle pursuits (15%).
-Average age of the officers was 34.
-Average time in law enforcement of the officers was 11 years.
-55% of the officers were white or Hispanic, 30% black, 15% Asian.
-65% of the suspects were white.
-Only 15% of suspects were under the influence of alcohol or drugs.
-More than a third of the suspects had no prior criminal history.
-25% of suspects were mentally impaired.0 -
Thanks TXS. Do you have any stats with normal civilians? Those are some pretty good shooting rates for our officers in my opinion. 0 -
I carry a Sig 239 with one in the pipe and a spare mag. That's 15. Seems to be about 11 more than I should need. 0 -
Don't shoot if you don't acquire your target.
Shooting holes in his trunk doesn't accomplish anything.0 -
Hmm. If there were 15 bad guys, I'd rather have the 15 round job. Against 2, 8 rounds is plenty. That gives me 6 rounds left over, or even lets me miss. I won't trade fire. Maybe one shot to let them know I'm armed. Then I wait for my target.
1 shot from my .45 he's down. 1 shot by a 9mm and he's PROBABLY down but not as surely.
Why do you think that the US Marines scared the shinola out of the Germans so badly in WW1? They waited for their targets and didn't mess around with supressing fire or firing blindly. That was the machine gunner's job.0 -
+1 for "It496. Don't shoot until you line-em-up. Can't line-em-up unless you expose yourself. Let the perp come to you. He has to break cover to do that. Joe 0 -
HK USP 40. I have 2 mags, and like the knock down power with it. I would have to agree with shoot only what you see and waiting for them to come to you. I know they are coming after me. I don't have anything that valuble. 0 -
The only person I have known that was in a life or death gun fight used a 1911 loaded with hardball at 2 feet. He fired 2 rounds either one of which would have been fatal in the chest cavity. He won. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by jonk
Hmm. If there were 15 bad guys, I'd rather have the 15 round job. Against 2, 8 rounds is plenty. That gives me 6 rounds left over, or even lets me miss.
I've heard it said the David picked up 5 smooth stones on his way to fight Goliath because Goliath had 4 brothers. I'd rather have them and not need them than need them and not have them!0 -
...8 rounds of .45 or 10mm(hot), over anything else...and steel, not plastic for my platform...[^] 
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quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
Thanks TXS. Do you have any stats with normal civilians? Those are some pretty good shooting rates for our officers in my opinion.
What qualifies as "normal civilians?" [:D]
Not police officers. Talking about common folks getting mugged on his way to work, or someone whos house is getting broke into to. Ect you get the idea now hopefully.
Personally all this grand standing doesn't mean much in my opinion. You really don't know how you will act or how you will shoot. You might have the hell scared out of you and shoot the hell out of something. When the adrenaline seriously dumps into your system you really can't predict whats going to happen or how you will react. You can predict and hope, but the real deal is completely different then day dreams. Training however does play a major role. I know I don't train for a situation even close to what military or police officers train to.
Personally if someone ever makes me defend myself or home there will be good reason and I will try to stop the threat without a doubt. I don't care how many holes are in him if he is still moving. That is what I tell myself now, who knows how I'll really react if I'm ever confronted.0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
Thanks TXS. Do you have any stats with normal civilians? Those are some pretty good shooting rates for our officers in my opinion.
What qualifies as "normal civilians?" [:D]
Not police officers. Talking about common folks getting mugged on his way to work, or someone whos house is getting broke into to. Ect you get the idea now hopefully.
Personally all this grand standing doesn't mean much in my opinion. You really don't know how you will act or how you will shoot. You might have the hell scared out of you and shoot the hell out of something. When the adrenaline seriously dumps into your system you really can't predict whats going to happen or how you will react. You can predict and hope, but the real deal is completely different then day dreams. Training however does play a major role. I know I don't train for a situation even close to what military or police officers train to.
Personally if someone ever makes me defend myself or home there will be good reason and I will try to stop the threat without a doubt. I don't care how many holes are in him if he is still moving. That is what I tell myself now, who knows how I'll really react if I'm ever confronted.
Wow, a bit sensitive today huh? [;)] I was just teasing. Besides, I don't believe that just because someone isn't a law enforcement officer makes them a "normal citizen." As evident from several members here that wouldn't qualify for that definition. Citizen, yes. Normal, absolutely not! Young Frankenstein comes to mind ("Abbynormal"). [:D]
I'm not sensative at all. I think you didn't take my tone right. I was just trying to explain better. [:D]0 -
I would rather have my Para-Ordnance 14-45 1911. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
quote:Originally posted by MVP
quote:Originally posted by HobbyGuy
I would rather have a gun and not need it, than to need a gun and not have it.
Well I would rather have 7 rounds left in the magazine after a gun battle then to need a 9th round when a crazy guy is pointing a loaded gun in my direction.
The police used to think a 6 shooter was all they needed but found out different after the criminals were carrying high cap pistols.
You do not find to many police officers who will carry a 6 shooter alone anymoe. Atleast not around the big cities.
Maybe in Montana they still do[;)]
Nope, not for over fifteen years. I believe Andy and Barney were the last ones to carry wheel guns. [:D] Being a retired LEO I always enjoy hearing how people believe that all conflicts require high capacity to win a gun battle. For the record, "gun battles" are more in the movies than in reality. Few shooting in Los Angeles County (where I worked) ever involved more than a few rounds. Sure, we can all remember watching the BofA bank robbery several years ago where the robbers wore body armor and spewed bullets from full auto firearms. That situation is a rarity and simply has not happened on any regular basis anywhere in this country. Fortunately, that brought on new policies to prevent officers from being out-gunned. If properly trained, a person can drop an empty mag and replace it with a fresh one in seconds. Again, if more than eight rounds are required, you're probably a poor shot, need considerably more training/practice and/or you are going up against someone with the wrong firearm. That's why we carried shotguns and M-16's. Personally, I carried an HK 91 for those instances. [^]
The author of this thread is a LEO...0 -
i'll take my 40 cal. with 13 rds. 0 -
thats why i carry a thompson 45 nuff said high cap. and big rounds how can i go wrong.[:D]
1911 with hollow points the perp wont get up and with a 4 inch barrel its point and kill0 -
Johhny Ringo: "He's so drunk, he's seein' double."
Doc Holliday: "I have two guns, one for each of you."
1911, not enough capacity?
9mm, not enought "punch"?
The answer: carry two Sig 220's, with 8 round mags.0 -
Just remember when your spraying your responsible for what you hit, civilians,BG or anything else. You might kill the bad guy but how many innocent victums. When you load up with all those rounds your pants may fall off from the weight and you can't move. Placement is what bring them down,and it doesn't have to be the biggest caliber who wins.02 cents worth[:D][^][:0] 0 -
Of the police-involved shootings that have taken place since I have worked at my PD, rounds fired by police were 0, 2, 2, and 3 respectively.
Up until early in 2000, when we were issued SIG pistols, I carried a revolver, a Smith & Wesson 66. I was one of a tiny minority. I didn't hang onto the revolver for any other reason than I wasn't real thrilled with the autos that were allowed for personal purchase and use. Besides, statistically speaking, 6 rounds is usually plenty.
IIRC, I recall an incident involving Jim Cirillo. He was with NYPD and had an issued Smith & Wesson model 10, .38 Special. He encountered four armed bad guys at the scene of a robbery. He got four center-mass hits and four one-shot stops.
I have come to like my SIG P229 in .40 S&W, but I would never feel poorly armed with a 5-shot or 6-shot revolver in an adequate caliber with good ammo.
That said, when I retire, my carry gun will likely be a 1911 derivative. I will either buy a .45, or dust off my dad's old .38 Super and use it.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Kodiakk
Thanks TXS. Do you have any stats with normal civilians? Those are some pretty good shooting rates for our officers in my opinion.
I don't have any hard numbers on armed citizen shootings, but it's been my general observation that their hit ratio isn't bad. It's tough to compare cop/armed citizen shooting stats though because the average circumstances are quite a bit different.
Consider that many of these incidents occur in the course of armed robberies, meaning the bad guys get pretty close before disclosing their intentions. Not many robberies occur with the bad guy 7 yds. away, which is the average range for cop shooting incidents. More like just beyond arm's length.0 -
quote:Originally posted by nunn
IIRC, I recall an incident involving Jim Cirillo. He was with NYPD and had an issued Smith & Wesson model 10, .38 Special. He encountered four armed bad guys at the scene of a robbery. He got four center-mass hits and four one-shot stops.Cirillo also states his weapon of choice in such situations is a 12ga with slugs.[;)]0
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