Body armor question
I figure y'all will get a laugh out of this.
So I was having a discussion about firearms and some dude basically says that some body armor is better than none. I say if it's a Level II vest against .308, you might as well be wearing a T-shirt.
His response?
The body armor will slow it down enough to make a difference and that all you have to do is be far away enough from it to have the .308's speed drop down to a manageable level because if it is travelling as fast as a 9mm, it will be just as easily stopped as a 9mm. And even if you're not, the fibers in the vest will prevent the bullet from expanding as much, resulting in less damage.
This is what I have to deal with out in California...[xx(]
So I was having a discussion about firearms and some dude basically says that some body armor is better than none. I say if it's a Level II vest against .308, you might as well be wearing a T-shirt.
His response?
The body armor will slow it down enough to make a difference and that all you have to do is be far away enough from it to have the .308's speed drop down to a manageable level because if it is travelling as fast as a 9mm, it will be just as easily stopped as a 9mm. And even if you're not, the fibers in the vest will prevent the bullet from expanding as much, resulting in less damage.
This is what I have to deal with out in California...[xx(]
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If a body armor plate is rated at .308 WIN, then it will theoretically stop a .308 at less than 10 feet. 0 -
So according to him the Doctor can use the shorter forceps to remove the bullet? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
If a body armor plate is rated at .308 WIN, then it will theoretically stop a .308 at less than 10 feet.
while this is true in the abstract, in this situation its not. the discussion was regarding the effectiveness of a level II vest stopping a .308. not a III or IIIa.0 -
Had the same discussion with a guy at the range who was wearing a "ballistic baseball cap". He claimed it would stop a .357, and that a 9mm wouldn't even penetrate!
No brain; no pain I guess.....0 -
new Military armor
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y280/SFC_Hall/soldiers.jpg0 -
Zulu7,
Hell, I'd try to put the planet Earth between me and that bullet if at all possible![:p]
No, this guy's assertion was that even a vest rated for pistol rounds would slow a rifle round sufficiently to make a difference.0 -
Here you go, SFC, figure its easier on the folks here 
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SFC,
What vehicle is that? An LAV series?0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
SFC,
What vehicle is that? An LAV series?
Looks to me like a Stryker.0 -
quote:Originally posted by ElMuertoMonkey
Zulu7,
Hell, I'd try to put the planet Earth between me and that bullet if at all possible![:p]
No, this guy's assertion was that even a vest rated for pistol rounds would slow a rifle round sufficiently to make a difference.
Next time you see him, call him an f-ing retard, because if a vest isn't rated for a certain caliber, then the vest won't stop said caliber. You might as well be wearing, like you said, a t-shirt. Tell him that a combat vet agrees with you.0 -
Zulu7,
Will do![;)][:D]0 -
A vest MAY slow down a round it is not rated to stop. Now, lessee- that means instead of kicking up dust 1000 meters BEYOND me, it will only kick up dust 800 meters BEYOND me. Dang, that would be MUCH better! I understand his thinking, but he did not carry it far enough. DEAD is an absolute. There is no Dead, Deader, Deadest. 0 -
Not surprising. When I graduated the police academy many years ago, we were issued soft body armor. The Sgt issuing the equipment told us the trauma plate was to stop rifle fire. I knew that he was full of it. I sarcastically asked him "How do you make sure the bad guy with the rifle shoots you in this small square area just in front?" He couldn't figure that one out. 0 -
Appears to me the main difference is that a bunch of the bullets energy that would have ended up in the ground on the back side of the guy will now end up in the guy, so if the shooter is using some environmentally unfriendly bullet, such as gilded lead, then the guy using the vest is doing the earth a favor and protecting it with ihs life, so to speak.[;)] 0 -
The point of the trauma plate being where it is (in front) is because that's where most shots hit you, and it's designed to reduce the chance of a fatal wound by protecting the majority of your vital organs. 0 -
In my extensive Air Force career, I've been thoroughly trained on how to flex my muscles in such a manner that I can stop all small arms fire without the need of a flak vest or other body armor. I'd go into further detail, but it is classified. 0 -
Except you have no muscles. Sometime you'll have to meet my buddy Nick. He'll show you what muscles are...puny. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
Except you have no muscles. Sometime you'll have to meet my buddy Nick. He'll show you what muscles are...puny.
There's muscles for show and then there's muscles for work. I'm a finely tuned Air Force fighting and killing machine.0 -
Level IIA body armor has stopped 5.56 FMJ rounds. It isn't rated to stop them, but at a distance, and at an angle, it can. 0 -
On a side note, it would only serve to start the mushrooming of the .308 round so by the time it broke through and started through the body it would probably already be about .400". Yeah, I'll take the t-shirt over the IIA vest 0 -
quote:So I was having a discussion about firearms and some dude basically says that some body armor is better than none. I say if it's a Level II vest against .308, you might as well be wearing a T-shirt.
I think the guy makes a good point actually; while you are right about the T-shirt analogy, there's more to it than that. You're arguing apples and oranges.
Obviously light armor isn't going to stop direct hits by heavy ammunition, but that certainly doesn't make it worthless.
As a simple counter-example, most military forces aren't fielding .308s anymore, and as Nunn says, low level armor CAN help with smaller rounds like .223. Most police officers don't get shot with .308 rifles, they got shot with handguns. (And probably more of them get shot with .22LR rifles than with .308 rifles).
Apart from stopping pistol rounds, light armor will reduce or prevent stab injuries, shotgun injuries, and stop shrapnel (which not incidentally can be generated from near miss rifle rounds). It can reduce blast or impact injury (eg from a car crash).
As the guy says, it may also stop rifle rounds that have slowed down due to distance. More important, it can help with rounds that have ricocheted or passed through an intermediate target before striking you (eg your car door.
The point is, if you are expecting trouble light armor probably *is* better than no armor.0 -
"all you have to do is be far away enough from it to have the .308's speed drop down to a manageable level because if it is travelling as fast as a 9mm, it will be just as easily stopped as a 9mm."
- Well, yea, that should be true
"the fibers in the vest will prevent the bullet from expanding as much, resulting in less damage"
- I don't know about this one.
If I were to know I'd be in a gunfight soon, and someone offered me a IIa vest, I'd take it.
Now if I were to know I'd be in a gunfight soon against a guy with a Socom II with a holo sight, I'd forget the vest, it will just weigh me down.
Realistically, the range you will need to have in between you and the rifle, way to far to make a difference, especially if the enemy's weapon isn't scoped.
If he is putting rounds on target at that distance, the rounds are still going to go right through your vest.
It might help when hiding behind an obstical that a .308 can only marginally penetrate.
Additionally, there is bullet expansion, but also the hydrostatic shock wave that forms a temporary cavity (leaving shredded flesh when it closes). The vest may slow the bullet down and reduce the size of this cavity, but would it do so any more than say, a bed matress?
It may be better, but insignificantly so. Just like in theory a T-shirt will slightly reduce the bullet velocity.
Realistically, it won't make a difference.
I say you are both right0 -
Ask him this, What happens to him if the bullet doesn't penetrate the armour and he has to soak up the 5000 ftlbs. of energy my little pop gun generates.[:D]Dave 0 -
quote:Originally posted by catpealer111
quote:Originally posted by Zulu7
Except you have no muscles. Sometime you'll have to meet my buddy Nick. He'll show you what muscles are...puny.
There's muscles for show and then there's muscles for work. I'm a finely tuned Air Force fighting and killing machine.
I did not know it was possible to use those words in the same sentance!
You are definatly funny Cat![:o)][:D]0 -
thats a Stryker and looks like it might be out at fort lewis. Yes that vest might not stop 308. But it will slow it down, anything that gets in the path of a bullet will slow it down, now will it slow it down enough to make a difference, probably not 0 -
Zulu7: a trauma plate in soft body armor is there to stop vest backface deformation trauma from the impact of a bullet. It has been shown that a vest without the trauma plate can actually be pushed into your chest up to 2" inches and this can cause serious injury. The plate is not there to stop rifle fire, as my Sgt told us. 0 -
Dragon skin many little plates overlaping, something being tested as we speak, gernade would not penetrate at point blank range.
Check out Future weapons on TV0 -
All right, who in here wants to get hit with a .308, can I see a raise of the hands? Even if it does slow down, it still is going to ruin your day!
Moose0 -
A T shirt is perfectly capable of stopping 308 Ball. You just need the size XXXXXXXXXXXXXXL, and drape it over an M-1 Abrams! And Beantown- have seen some data on effectiveness of Kevlar type vests in stopping stab wounds- and it did disturb me. Now, that WAS a while ago, and vests may have changed, but non-rotating slender pointy things went thru a lot of vest material. Bullets, having a high rate of spin, tend to grab the vest and pull on the layers of material. A stilleto, poinard, or icepick, on the other hand.... 0 -
quote:Originally posted by 11b6r
Now, that WAS a while ago, and vests may have changed, but non-rotating slender pointy things went thru a lot of vest material. Bullets, having a high rate of spin, tend to grab the vest and pull on the layers of material. A stilleto, poinard, or icepick, on the other hand....They definitely decrease the odds of injury from knives. I know an officer who was shanked multiple times in the stomach while wearing a IIA. He thought the guy was just punching him.0
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