50 % ++++Taxation...
Kristov and Dirj took great delight in declaring me criminally insane for saying that we are somewhere between 55-65 % taxed to death in America.
Boortz on his radio show today mentioned that there is a 22 % enbedded tax on anything and everthing you buy...as determined by several MIT researchers, and independent economists...
I paid 28 % tax off the top. I pay 9% state income tax.
That all adds up to a bit over 50 %....
I want them please to bombard me again with all their reasurrences again from the goverment sites..I am feeling myself back sliding into my 65 % mode again.....
Plus...by the way...ANY money demanded by the goverment is a 'tax'...no matter the slick-sounding phrases used to make the snit slide down our throats easier....
Say...for example...manditory insurance on a vehicle/drivers license/hunting license/fees for this...fees for that...
Boortz on his radio show today mentioned that there is a 22 % enbedded tax on anything and everthing you buy...as determined by several MIT researchers, and independent economists...
I paid 28 % tax off the top. I pay 9% state income tax.
That all adds up to a bit over 50 %....
I want them please to bombard me again with all their reasurrences again from the goverment sites..I am feeling myself back sliding into my 65 % mode again.....
Plus...by the way...ANY money demanded by the goverment is a 'tax'...no matter the slick-sounding phrases used to make the snit slide down our throats easier....
Say...for example...manditory insurance on a vehicle/drivers license/hunting license/fees for this...fees for that...
0
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quote:Originally posted by vess1
Have you seriously investigated what we're actually paying in taxes? I understand your frustration. I just paid another 82 bucks today for a sticker to put on my license plate. That's certainly a tax. But some of the stuff you mentioned, I think is stretching it a bit. Mandatory insurance on vehicles can't be classified as a tax. Lets say that they did away with it. Ok, now you decide to have no insurance and so does the other guy. The 'other guy' slams his brand new, never made a payment, vehicle into your brand new vehicle that isn't paid for either. Then what? Who's supposed to cover it? You and the other guy will just write a check, pay them off and buy another? No. The rule is in place for our and the bank's protection.
My driver's license...10 bucks every four years, so 2.50 a year. Hunting licenses, cheap. Supposedly some of the money does go to a good cause, like the habitat stamp money.
After I get my tax return back this year, I will have paid only 10% of my salary to federal taxes. I recently found a website with a chart, clearly graphing how the median income family today, is actually paying less percentage wise in federal income taxes than they have since 1955. I'll post it if I can find it again. We're ALL paying less in taxes than when Bush first came to office and they're looking to give us even more breaks. We're actually lucky the rich are paying all the taxes they do. We'd be even more broke if they didn't.
"Tax distribution
In the United States, the Treasury Department reported based on IRS data the share of all federal taxes paid by taxpayers of various income levels.[4] The data shows the progressive structure of the U.S. federal tax system that reduces the tax incidence of people with smaller incomes, as they shift the incidence disproportionately to those with higher incomes.
The top 0.1% of taxpayers by income pay 17.4% of all federal taxes (earning 9.1% of the income).
The top 1% of taxpayers by income pay 36.9% of all federal taxes (earning 19% of the income).
The top 5% of taxpayers pay 57.1% of all federal taxes (earning 33.4% of the income).
The bottom 50% pay 3.3% of all individual income taxes (earning 13.4% of the income). "
That chart won't go over too well here!0 -
quote:you might organize the clubs waitstaff into a walk out .[:D] Not until I had my Jack and Coke, I wouldn't...
Unions are another point of disagreement..not in the fact that they are Socialist in nature..they are and I have used that faCT many times..just in HOW does the common man force the bosses to share the wealth..?
Armed camp ? What is wrong with that...so long as the GOVERNMENT doesn't have the only arms..???
As for the Rush Limbaugh school of Taxes....the Rich Pay ALL the Taxes....howcome it seems that I pay more taxes them many of THEM....as reported nearly every year by thios or that news organ...
GOVERMENT MANDATED INSURANCE is'nt a tax ? Ummm...Okaay...as for the ten bucks for this license or that...that is TEN BUCKS out of MY pocket and into THEIR pocket...ITS A TAX.
As far as Insurance goes...how about you insuring YOUR own car..for ten million bucks, if you wish..instead of the gov. making it a law...and the nsurance rates going up every year thereafter...0 -
Kristov;
This is a beautifully written bit of prose. I find few things to argue about...regre[:D]tfully...
quote:Posted - 02/09/2007 : 9:48:05 PM
I do not support illegal immigration but I do not support turning this country into an armed camp in order to prevent it. I do not support any isolationist trade policies, I believe in the free market. I support the absolute minimum amount of government involvement in our daily lives and the absolute maximum amount of personal freedom that this country can offer all of us. I am opposed to any types of racial quotas, but I also am disgusted by racisim, bigotry or homophobia and find their very existance in our country to be the polar opposite of what this country is supposed to be all about. I do not find any religion to be good or any to be evil, in my mind they were all designed to manipulate people into doing the bidding of a group of higher-ups who promise believers a lot of wonderful things...After they are dead! Privacy, property rights, personal freedoms and pride in our country are all things that you and I support. If we could stear clear of economics I know that we'd enjoy each others company over burgers and beers. I'd invite you to the Big Canyon Country Club, where I am a member, for a round of golf and lunch but you might organize the clubs waitstaff into a walk out .0 -
http://www.cbpp.org/4-10-02tax.htm
It only goes to 2002 and it's not as good as the one I found before but is essentially the same. The line has dropped even further over the last few years. We're actually fortunate federal taxes are as low as they are, considering how much debt they're racking up these days.
I'm not looking to pi$$ anybody off. I just recently had an argument with a guy at work over this same topic so I did some investigating. Since he hates Bush, according to him, the rich don't pay any taxes. He claims the majority of the very rich, receive all of their income from stock options which have some sort of tax loophole so they get out of paying. Man I tell you...any excuse... I knew this was wrong so I looked it up.
We have all received tax breaks under GW. Yes, the rich have received more of a tax break than any other class but they're also paying more in federal taxes than any other class. So I dont see it as that big of a deal, except for the fact that in the mean time we're going further in debt.
I just hate when this subject comes up and people would rather let their imaginations run wild than actually look for facts about what's really happening. I'm not rich and I'm not trying to defend the rich. I'm just saying the info's out there if anybody wants to read it.0 -
Just so we are clear: I have no use for Rush Limbaugh, but I'd love to have his speaking voice...and his money! Your point about the need and the resulting safety factor of the people being as well armed (or better armed) as the government or police is a valid one to be sure. You have to understand that my childhood was filled with the horror stories that my parents told me about their life in the Eastern Bloc where you were nothing more than a warm body for use in service to the State and suitable for any use they saw fit. 0 -
quote:Eastern Bloc where you were nothing more than a warm body for use in service to the State and suitable for any use they saw fit.
BINGO
You SHOULD be able to see this sort of thing right here..the incipient stages of it. Look hard...the image comes clearer the more you look at it.
Now...for Vess1;
Read again what I paid in taxes...well over 50%..and bubba...I AIN'T RICH...I also was stupid and didn't start some paper business so as to take off all those deductions...I have no children...I was in the highest bracket for wages/age/ whatever the hell they use to extract blood from Us...don't give me the crap about 'the rich pay the highest taxes". Figures don't lie...but liers damn sure figure...and the rich guys own the media that you get your information from. Try and remember that.
You might also remember..even Rush Limbaugh admits that businesses pay no taxes...they merly add it to the cost of the product. Who buys the product...that 'mystery tax' Mr Kristov grudgingly mentioned....???0 -
Good post Highball, and I agree with MVP, I think your 50% estimate is low. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Highball
quote:you might organize the clubs waitstaff into a walk out .[:D]
GOVERMENT MANDATED INSURANCE is'nt a tax ? Ummm...Okaay...as for the ten bucks for this license or that...that is TEN BUCKS out of MY pocket and into THEIR pocket...ITS A TAX.
As far as Insurance goes...how about you insuring YOUR own car..for ten million bucks, if you wish..instead of the gov. making it a law...and the nsurance rates going up every year thereafter...
I never said 10 bucks for my DL wasn't a tax. I agree it is, but it's the least of my worries. As for insurance, maybe people with above average wealth should be given the option to carry insurance as long as they can annually prove they have the assets and ability to cover all the coverage that is required. Which would be a small minority who would rather just buy the regular insurance anyway than have to go through the extra bs of avoiding it. It would probably get complicated and not work anyway. Again, for the vast majority, it's for their own good and the banks. Sure, the government has their hand in the cookie jar too but that's unavoidable.
Social Security tax: Again, for our own good. Believe it or not, a lot of people in this country are living on social security alone right now. Sure, it was probably a bad idea to install the program in the first place but what can we do now? Nothing. If it ever does dry up, I fully expect all hell to break loose as people start starving and getting desperate. So I don't see it going away any time soon.
You pay taxes at the gas pump too. Some states much more than others. But hey, the roads you drive on don't improve and maintain themselves. Much of our highway system was just begining after WW II. Followed by another resurgence in the 60s. Well, a lot of the cheap, unsafe, not well thought out alignments were built during this time and have not been improved much since. Every new improvement potentially saves lives. It may seem like a burden but it is for your safety and convenience. As long as the politicians don't rob it.
Then you have property taxes. Well, somebody's got to pay for your city's improvements or your kid's teacher's salary.
I mean, when it comes down to it, there probably aren't many taxes we can justifiably complain about. We live in a very expensive period of time, being very fortunate that the govt has the ability to 'borrow' make believe money. Maybe not so fortunate in the long run, but fortunate conerning your take home pay this year.0 -
Garbage, and I repeat, total, unequivocal, unmitigated garbage. I expected no more than that when I saw the start of the thread.
It's real simple to disprove. What is the Federal Budget? The estimate for 2007 is $2,784,000,000,000, that's Two trillion, seven hundred and eighty four billion and change, and we know that this is not a balanced budget. The fact that this is not a balanced budget has a very clear meaning, and that is that the tax revenue is less than the expenditures, and the revenue is the total from all sources. I repeat, from all sources of taxes and revenue. That's all sources of revenue. Table in first link below, try Table 1.4 - it lists the monies spent and received from 1934 through the projection of 2012. You, of course, have better figures than the Budget Office I'm sure. I repeat, the revenue from all sources. Did I mention that it was from all sources?
Now being the smart boy you seem to be I'm sure that you know what the GDP of the country is, but just in case it slipped your mind, let me refresh you a bit. The projected forecast is for about a $13.7 trillion dollar GDP and the links to the numbers are provided below in the second link. I know your favorite nutjob has better figures than the government, but the Feds seem to think they have a fair idea since ALL income tax returns reporting profits, wages, interest, dividends, etc. goes through them, not nutjobsareus.com.
Now clearly $2.74 trillion is not quite 65% of $13.7 trillion, and the taxes actually paid are even less of a percentage than that since we are still dealing with a budget deficit. The table for that one is in the first link. Try Table 2.3, it lists the taxes from all sources by categories and percents of GDP. Who knows, the Government may even have a small idea how much money they are getting and where it is coming from.
http://origin.www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/hist.html
http://www.neatideas.com/gdp.htm
Now, we do need to add state and local taxes on top of that, and if I have to, I can get you the average figures for them by each state you wish to have the information for or from. I keep those kinds of information sources available against the times when I need to pull them up for my own use, or when needed to demonstrate a point. It takes a bit longer to pull them out, but I can give you a quick overall chart in the third link which is listed below. That one only goes through 2002, but it does breakdown the percentages of taxes paid at each level of government, and the combined total over a period of several years.
http://www.urban.org/publications/1000556.html
I'm sure the figures, charts, tables, and facts you have for this topic are much more accurate than these from the Office of Budget, from the U.S Treasury, and from the IRS, so I wait to see the exact numbers you wish to show how we are paying 65% of $13.7 trillion, for a total of $8.9 trillion in taxes, spend less than $3 trillion at the Federal level, spend less than that at the state and local level, and still have a deficit.
I know that your gut feeling, angst, anger, and wild emotion are more accurate than facts, but some of us just have to deal with reality.0 -
Geeze...however can we argue with all that...and a bag of chips, too....
This above crack is in response to VESS1;
quote:Social Security tax: Again, for our own good. Believe it or not, a lot of people in this country are living on social security alone right now. Sure, it was probably a bad idea to install the program in the first place but what can we do now? Nothing. If it ever does dry up, I fully expect all hell to break loose as people start starving and getting desperate. So I don't see it going away any time soon.
You pay taxes at the gas pump too. Some states much more than others. But hey, the roads you drive on don't improve and maintain themselves. Much of our highway system was just begining after WW II. Followed by another resurgence in the 60s. Well, a lot of the cheap, unsafe, not well thought out alignments were built during this time and have not been improved much since. Every new improvement potentially saves lives. It may seem like a burden but it is for your safety and convenience. As long as the politicians don't rob it.
Then you have property taxes. Well, somebody's got to pay for your city's improvements or your kid's teacher's salary.
I mean, when it comes down to it, there probably aren't many taxes we can justifiably complain about. We live in a very expensive period of time, being very fortunate that the govt has the ability to 'borrow' make believe money. Maybe not so fortunate in the long run, but fortunate conerning your take home pay this year0 -
Just produce some actual figures. And a bag of chips - I assume yours are cow chips. 0 -
"Boortz on his radio show today mentioned that there is a 22 % enbedded tax on anything and everthing you buy...as determined by several MIT researchers, and independent economists...
This is a broad statement. I may or may not be able to claim the same thing, assuming this 22% is true and where you live in comparison to me.
"Figures don't lie...but liers damn sure figure...and the rich guys own the media that you get your information from. Try and remember that."
Well then why would they have a guy on a show making that previous statement to allow you to know about that 22%? [;)]
I paid 28 % tax off the top. I pay 9% state income tax.
That all adds up to a bit over 50 %...."
What percentage do you get back at tax time? Our state income tax is barely 3%. Which explains a lot of this state's problems but they never adjust it up so nobody complains. Every situation is unique.0 -
For a number of years I got nothing back..after divorcing.
quote:What percentage do you get back at tax time? Our state income tax is barely 3%. Which explains a lot of this state's problems but they
And there is the response I have been waiting for....I have instantly seen the error of my ways...all those facts and figures just instantly made my own situation shrink to 15 %...and I feel so much better now.0 -
quote:Originally posted by kristov
I'm up in the top bracket of every tax so here is what I am paying:
Federal Income Tax............35.00%
California State Income Tax....9.30%
Social Security Tax*.............1.75%
Medicare Tax.......................1.45%
Total tax burdern...............47.5%
*There is a threshold of approx $95,000 after which your income is not subject to additional Social Security Tax. Based on my income level this means a net tax of approx. 1.75%
If I were to add your 22% mystery tax to this amount I would have a total tax burden of nearly 70% and since I know how much money I have I can tell you that I retain way more than 30% of my income.
You forget Social Security is matched by the employer, so that 1.75% is actually 3.50% because if it wasn't going to the gov it would go too you.
How much money do you spend a year on guns and ammo. Figure an 11 to 15% excise tax in the price of your purchase.
How much stuff do you buy at all. Add your sales tax.
Do you own property? How much was your property tax.
Hunting Fishing Drivers license fees are a tax.
Are you still setting under 50%?
Well add the Taxes on fuel, not just your own but the truckers who deliver you purchases to the store and the raw material to the maker.
Business licenses , clean air complience sewage trash pickup you name it it is a tax. You are probably closer to 75% than 47%0 -
I was looking at my phone bill one day and noticed I was paying a "voluntary contribution" to something or other. I called the phone company and asked them what the deal was on the "voluntary contribution". The lady spent about ten minutes explaining it to me, but I never did understand it. I told the lady to delete it from my bill because I didn't volunteer to pay it. It turned out to be a Federal Tax which is anything but voluntary. The way the law was written they had to call it a "voluntary contribution", but they had to collect it and I had to pay it. I think the name of the line item has been changed now, but I'm still paying it. I guess I'll take another look at a phone bill one day and see what they call it now. 0 -
I don't mind paying taxes. I think I get valuable benefits from the taxes I pay. I also think paying taxes is the most efficient method of getting public administration type stuff done. Sure it is expensive but in my opinion, even with waste and mismanagement, we get a lot of bang for our buck. 0 -
I earn less than $15,000 per year. I do not think my tax burden is excessive. For what I pay in tax, the services I receive in return (police services--even if they aren't all we'd like them to be, decent roads, regulation of pollutants) seem like a BARGAIN. I know that I pay less of my income as a percentage than somebody who earns more, but hell....I'm getting a deal! I'm among those who do not necessarily oppose tax increases. I think for the most part our tax money is used wisely (and yes, there are countless stories of BS with tax money, but then there are many more than countless people dealing with our tax money). 0 -
quote: I was looking at my phone bill one day and noticed I was paying a "voluntary contribution" to something or other
Thanks for reminding me about this. I still have this charge on one of my bills it's extra for police or fire I think. I need to call them and tell them to take the crap off because they never asked me if it was ok.
The whole tax discussion REALLY ticks me off since I see the trash thats collecting a free living for generations selling dope out the back door and making more then me. If they ever get caught normal folks agian get to foot their bill while they hang out with their buddies in prison.0 -
I'll post this again, but it is clear that reality does not bother folks who have their mind made up. The total tax bill from ALL sources is nothing like 75%, 65%, 50%, or anything close. Just check the link and look at the numbers.
That includes ALL taxes and fees of all kinds, at all levels, from all sources. Phone tax, dog tax, booze, gas, sales, income, profit, highway tolls, license for car and driver, both sides of SS, property tax, it includes them all.
http://www.urban.org/publications/1000556.html
If you don't like that one, try this link.
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200604120758.asp
With this quote from it showing the percent of tax burden from ALL taxes.
"How does this stack up against actual tax burdens? One way to look at this is to take taxes at all levels of government as a share of the gross domestic product - the nation's total income. In 2005, taxes came to a little over $3.5 trillion and GDP was close to $12.5 trillion, for an effective tax rate of 28.5 percent.
Another way is to look at "Tax Freedom Day," which calculates the day each year when we stop working for government and start working for ourselves. In effect, this measures taxes as a share of aggregate income. Last year, taxes took 29.1 percent of income by this measure, down from a recent high of 33.6 percent in 2000."
Not even close to 75%, and it includes all levels of government.0 -
quote:Originally posted by dlrjj
I'll post this again, but it is clear that reality does not bother folks who have their mind made up. The total tax bill from ALL sources is nothing like 75%, 65%, 50%, or anything close. Just check the link and look at the numbers.
That includes ALL taxes and fees of all kinds, at all levels, from all sources. Phone tax, dog tax, booze, gas, sales, income, profit, highway tolls, license for car and driver, both sides of SS, property tax, it includes them all.
http://www.urban.org/publications/1000556.html
If you don't like that one, try this link.
http://www.nationalreview.com/nrof_bartlett/bartlett200604120758.asp
With this quote from it showing the percent of tax burden from ALL taxes.
"How does this stack up against actual tax burdens? One way to look at this is to take taxes at all levels of government as a share of the gross domestic product - the nation's total income. In 2005, taxes came to a little over $3.5 trillion and GDP was close to $12.5 trillion, for an effective tax rate of 28.5 percent.
Another way is to look at "Tax Freedom Day," which calculates the day each year when we stop working for government and start working for ourselves. In effect, this measures taxes as a share of aggregate income. Last year, taxes took 29.1 percent of income by this measure, down from a recent high of 33.6 percent in 2000."
Not even close to 75%, and it includes all levels of government.
Sorry. Too lazy to read it. I think your link is suggesting that the total tax burden for most folks is less than 50%? That sounds plausible to me, anyway.
And whatever my tax-burden-percentage is, I still say.....I'm getting a hell of a bargain!0 -
Averages are funny things.
There is the 15,000 dollar a year guy..with light taxes. Bully for him..and his 70-80 million brothers. They get a nearly free ride that those of us making a few bucks over 15,000 pay for.
The book-keeper types go spastic when exact figures are not supplied..the fact remains that those actually PAYING the taxes...most of them, anyway...believe that taxes are entirely too high.
The other thing..that Wipala mentioned...is the 9.something cents I pay EVERY TIME I go to the store...right off the top.
Those goverment figures are designed to make you feel better about being broke over the barrel for the pleasure of the Elites...and the private figures are designed by people broken on the wheel of "I got mine...screw you"....as witness the talk radio guy RushLimbaugh. In the day, he talked about issues pertaiing to the little guy. The year he made 40 million dollars...he became a Republican.
I trust economists exactly as much as I do Limbaugh...not at all.0 -
quote:Originally posted by wipala
quote:Originally posted by kristov
I'm up in the top bracket of every tax so here is what I am paying:
Federal Income Tax............35.00%
California State Income Tax....9.30%
Social Security Tax*.............1.75%
Medicare Tax.......................1.45%
Total tax burdern...............47.5%
*There is a threshold of approx $95,000 after which your income is not subject to additional Social Security Tax. Based on my income level this means a net tax of approx. 1.75%
If I were to add your 22% mystery tax to this amount I would have a total tax burden of nearly 70% and since I know how much money I have I can tell you that I retain way more than 30% of my income.
You forget Social Security is matched by the employer, so that 1.75% is actually 3.50% because if it wasn't going to the gov it would go too you.
How much money do you spend a year on guns and ammo. Figure an 11 to 15% excise tax in the price of your purchase.
How much stuff do you buy at all. Add your sales tax.
Do you own property? How much was your property tax.
Hunting Fishing Drivers license fees are a tax.
Are you still setting under 50%?
Well add the Taxes on fuel, not just your own but the truckers who deliver you purchases to the store and the raw material to the maker.
Business licenses , clean air complience sewage trash pickup you name it it is a tax. You are probably closer to 75% than 47%
Sales taxes cannot be counted at face vaule since your income determines just how much of a burden these taxes represent.
Example: Two tax payers purchase a total of $25,000 worth of merchandise in a state with an 8% sales tax. This represents a total out lay of $2000 in sales taxes. If person #1 has an income of $70,000 that $2000 represents a tax burden of slightly less than 3% (not the 8% face amount). If person #2 has an income of (I'll just pull a number off the of of my head [;)]) $365,000 per year than that same $2000 represents a tax burden of only about one half of one percent (.05%)...Hardly enough to get worked up over! This is why sales/use or VAT taxes are favored to replace direct income taxes by high income folks or those who are retired and not likely to make many big ticket item purchases late into their lives.0 -
quote:by dlrjj "How does this stack up against actual tax burdens? One way to look at this is to take taxes at all levels of government as a share of the gross domestic product - the nation's total income. In 2005, taxes came to a little over $3.5 trillion and GDP was close to $12.5 trillion, for an effective tax rate of 28.5 percent.
Another way is to look at "Tax Freedom Day," which calculates the day each year when we stop working for government and start working for ourselves. In effect, this measures taxes as a share of aggregate income. Last year, taxes took 29.1 percent of income by this measure, down from a recent high of 33.6 percent in 2000."
Well dlrjj I hate to tell you this but your numbers don't add up. First you try to send this BS down our throats about how the Budget Is proportional to the GDP as a percentage of taxes we pay. Well the budget is 2.7 trillion but lets say for argumentatives sake it's 2.5 trillion to be balanced actually lower but we don't know. Well that would make the tax percentage 18.2% compared to GDP. However tariff and import taxes aren't mentioned here but they are included. Then the tax free day is sometime in may each year. Well there's 12 months in the year so may is more than 4 months into the year so 4 months would be 33% so I'm going to say 35% to be conservative. Are you still with me? But that is just fed,state,SS and medicare taxes. Yes that's right not including property taxes, sales taxes inculding several utility taxes and government fees/taxes. I can tell you that my property taxes are about 10% of my income. But that is tax deductable at a rate of 27% so I pay 7.3% additional property tax after deducting. Also the above does not include gasoline tax which in my state is roughly 16%. However to be fair here I do not spend 100% of my income on gasoline. Actually about 2% goes to gas taxes. So for me it's 35% + 8% + 2% = 45% on a conservative note here not counting other minor amounts such as alcohol,tobacco and food taxes. BTW this just happens to be the number I tell people that most pay in taxes to the government. The reason I do not rely on government figures like you do is there's too many variables yes that's right, one calculation comes up with 18% another 33%. I would say mine is +/-3% acurate.
Now if you want to tell everybody we only pay 20-30% taxes from some generalized GDP and unknown actual budget numbers be my guest but I for one have facts that I can prove not some crap the government estimates. NUFF SAID........0 -
It's all Bush's fault. 0 -
dlrjj is naive in thinking our govt. has an actual budget.
How did the US Army lose $1 Trillion in Iraq in 12 months when the entire DOD budget was half a trillion for the year?
Have you noticed that the US Govt. increases it's credit card limit by borrowing from other countries? China holds $1 Trillion in US Treasury holdings....with the promise they will make a profit if they don't cash it now. If they cash it now they destroy our economy.
Essentially 1/4th of the US govt's ""budget"" is to pay it's own debt. By the US Govt. paying that debt we are paying PROFITS to communist China for loaning us money to keep going.
1/4th of our Federal ""BUDGET"" pays interest only on debt they hold. That does not count State, local, or citizen debt.
American's are stupid.0 -
Although I am not surprised, I see that some here are attempting to minimize the taxes, fees and other oppressive "withholdings" forcibly taken from gainfully employed Americans.
Rather than getting caught up in this useless minutia, why don't we focus on the fact that the government has far, far exceeded its constitutional authority in stealing our money and move on from there.
For those who may wish to argue this point, don't bother doing it with me. I don't have the time or the inclination to argue with idiots.[;)] Live your quasi-slaves life and enjoy it.
As for me, I will continue to view the current situation from the eyes of one very angry American who sees the truth of what our gov't has done to this nation.0 -
Imagine this scenario, we pull out of Iraq like the people want now. Then Iran invades from the east to take control of the oil for revenge of the '80s Iran/Iraq war. Just to make it more juicy Syria invades from the west peraps siding with Iran. Iraq is taken quickly cause it no longer has nearly the military infrastructure it once had.
Yes a major war in the making not the piddly BS we've had so far.(no offense to those who served there) Now we have the monumental task of settling the region. Overnight oil is over $100 a barrel and rises to $150 a barrel in a month. Prices at the pump shoot to $8-$10 a gallon. Meanwhile these communist countries like China sees this as the oppertune time to throw the US further down the finacial toilet to hell by cashing their US held money, because after all it's rapidly becoming worthless. Sending us into financial oblivion........pretty scary huh?????
But if anything like this happens I gaurantee you Bush will be held solely responsible..........NO JOKING HERE!!!0 -
...Whats considered really "rich" to where you only a pittance of the tax? I know a guy that owned the largest business of it's kind in the SouthWest U.S. He bought working ranches, shopping centers, and other income producing property and gave them to the Scottish Rite Hospital to generate income for them; the man had major bucks.
I was kidding with him once before he sold his business, that I paid more taxes than he did, he immediately said "no".
On every $1.00 of profit he made, he paid .78 or 79 cents in taxes [:0]. Now you have to consider this guy had the best of the best CPA's (several!) and a battery of tax attorneys to help keep his tax burden down to ONLY the above mentioned amount!
This guy should be considered rich by anyones standards. He sold his business for 50 million in cash and another 150 million in real property and other assets.
Problem is, in learning to make money all his life, he never learned how to really enjoy it, and was tighter (still is) than a gnats azz stretched over a door knob though he did enjoy it in his on way I guess; I have the utmost respect for this man.
...Lived all his life, still does, in a 2,500 sq/ft regular home. Buys a new truck every 5 years. Owns and flies a twin engine plane that seats 12 people...but only uses it to fly medical needy kids to "specialty" medical hospitals...no trips for him or his wife.
While he owned his Co., he only drew a salary of $800 a week, when he could have drawn $8,000, or how ever much he wanted.
One time the bookeeper got a call from his banker(Uncle Dick's) who suggested that "they" give him a raise from $800 to $2,000 a week. When Uncle Dick got his check...and it was for 2,000, he went to the bookeepers office and pronounced to him that he better pay more attention, as he had made huge error on his check. The bookeeper replied, no mistake, your banker called and suggested the larger amount and I agreed. Uncle Dick threw the check onto the bookeepers desk and ask " Does my banker sign your check, or do I"?..now make me a check out for the $800 dollars...[:0][:D]
...Uncle Dick was self made, graduated the 3rd grade...then went to work, learned his trade and built one helluva a business, nothing was given to him.
A good thing those 'ol meany rich scum bags make lots of money, to pay lots of taxes...[;)]
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quote:Originally posted by ObiWan
dlrjj is naive in thinking our govt. has an actual budget.
How did the US Army lose $1 Trillion in Iraq in 12 months when the entire DOD budget was half a trillion for the year?
Have you noticed that the US Govt. increases it's credit card limit by borrowing from other countries? China holds $1 Trillion in US Treasury holdings....with the promise they will make a profit if they don't cash it now. If they cash it now they destroy our economy.
Essentially 1/4th of the US govt's ""budget"" is to pay it's own debt. By the US Govt. paying that debt we are paying PROFITS to communist China for loaning us money to keep going.
1/4th of our Federal ""BUDGET"" pays interest only on debt they hold. That does not count State, local, or citizen debt.
American's are stupid.
And, pray tell, what does the fact that the government does not stick to their budget have to do with the statements about the tax level?
The obvious, and well known fact, that the government exceeds their budget, does not change the amount of tax they receive by a single cent. The statement relating to the budget was used simply to show that even the "budget" listed was not large enough to begin to support the tax rates claimed.
I made no claim at all relative to the budget, other than that it, plus all state and local budgets combined, did not come close to the rates stated.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Hunter Mag
quote:by dlrjj "How does this stack up against actual tax burdens? One way to look at this is to take taxes at all levels of government as a share of the gross domestic product - the nation's total income. In 2005, taxes came to a little over $3.5 trillion and GDP was close to $12.5 trillion, for an effective tax rate of 28.5 percent.
Another way is to look at "Tax Freedom Day," which calculates the day each year when we stop working for government and start working for ourselves. In effect, this measures taxes as a share of aggregate income. Last year, taxes took 29.1 percent of income by this measure, down from a recent high of 33.6 percent in 2000."
Well dlrjj I hate to tell you this but your numbers don't add up. First you try to send this BS down our throats about how the Budget Is proportional to the GDP as a percentage of taxes we pay. Well the budget is 2.7 trillion but lets say for argumentatives sake it's 2.5 trillion to be balanced actually lower but we don't know. Well that would make the tax percentage 18.2% compared to GDP. However tariff and import taxes aren't mentioned here but they are included. Then the tax free day is sometime in may each year. Well there's 12 months in the year so may is more than 4 months into the year so 4 months would be 33% so I'm going to say 35% to be conservative. Are you still with me? But that is just fed,state,SS and medicare taxes. Yes that's right not including property taxes, sales taxes inculding several utility taxes and government fees/taxes. I can tell you that my property taxes are about 10% of my income. But that is tax deductable at a rate of 27% so I pay 7.3% additional property tax after deducting. Also the above does not include gasoline tax which in my state is roughly 16%. However to be fair here I do not spend 100% of my income on gasoline. Actually about 2% goes to gas taxes. So for me it's 35% + 8% + 2% = 45% on a conservative note here not counting other minor amounts such as alcohol,tobacco and food taxes. BTW this just happens to be the number I tell people that most pay in taxes to the government. The reason I do not rely on government figures like you do is there's too many variables yes that's right, one calculation comes up with 18% another 33%. I would say mine is +/-3% acurate.
Now if you want to tell everybody we only pay 20-30% taxes from some generalized GDP and unknown actual budget numbers be my guest but I for one have facts that I can prove not some crap the government estimates. NUFF SAID........
What BS about taxes being proportional to GDP? Of course they are proportional to GDP. If taxes even exist then they, by definition, are some proportion of GDP - get a grip here. Where else do you think they come from, the Tooth Fairy? GDP is every penny in the country, within a repeatable margin of error, and includes most known and measurable events. It does NOT include the underground economy, although we do have estimates of that, but then the Mafia and the kid next door who mows the lawn aren't paying taxes anyway, right? If we include those items in GDP, the tax percent will actually decline, since we don't count things like yard sales, in most cases, and they usually aren't taxed. We also don't count the value of used items sold since they don't add anything to the value of the current economy, but we do add any taxes paid on those items, as well as any commissions, fees, paperwork charges, etc. The various levels of government make every effort possible to include every thing they can find for the simple reason that the SOB's don't want to miss a single chance to tax anything they can get away with.
As to your attempt to list taxes that were not counted, sorry, but just like Prego Spaghetti Sauce, it's in there. Those tax figures don't just include income taxes, and then all others are on top of that, it includes the user fee and excise types as well. If you will check the charts and tables I gave you, you will see that those taxes are included. I will repost the figures for the Feds in the 2nd table that show those items you feel are not included and they are listed by category.
http://www.gpoaccess.gov/usbudget/fy08/sheets/hist02z3.xls
But let's say that they don't. The original statement was that we pay 65% in taxes, and that was upped by several people to 75% or more. You have declared that my statement that we don't pay anywhere near that in taxes because your duplicative (I did not say duplicitous) methods of counting brings you to 45% and change. Please explain how that makes the statement that we don't pay anywhere near 65% incorrect, unless by your mathematical methodology, 45% has become a larger number than 65%.
I really don't care what you pay in taxes, what K pays, or what Bill Gates pays. The statement was that WE pay 65% in all forms of taxes, and we quite clearly don't, even by YOUR estimates. What one individual pays is in no way indicative of what we pay collectively, and that was the original, and clearly incorrect, assertion I addressed. We have had top end Federal tax rates as high as 95% in past years and the Brits have had a top rate of 98%, but we don't currently pay any of those, so they just don't apply either.
The 65% figure was pure claptrap, and by a huge margin of error, and that was easily established. If you bother to read my signature, you'll maybe begin to understand that I'm not the least bit a fan of taxes; I just don't care for off-the-wall inaccurate claims of fact.0
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