How Accurate is Accurate?
After being bombarded with all of the gun magazine "experts" advice on accuracy of handgun shooting, I have noticed that many writers do not shoot free hand, rather they shoot off of some sort of brace. So, how accurate is accurate for a self defense situation with say a Glock 19 or a Ruger SP101? I know these are different platforms of weapons, but the accuracy factor should be the same. There is a huge difference between bullseye accuracy and combat (self defense) accuracy. So let me hear what you think. Thanks abd have a great week.
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After being bombarded with all of the gun magazine "experts" advice on accuracy of handgun shooting, I have noticed that many writers do not shoot free hand, rather they shoot off of some sort of brace. So, how accurate is accurate for a self defense situation with say a Glock 19 or a Ruger SP101? I know these are different platforms of weapons, but the accuracy factor should be the same. There is a huge difference between bullseye accuracy and combat (self defense) accuracy. So let me hear what you think. Thanks and have a great week. 0 -
I practice one-handed firing at about 25 feet, both using sights and without ("hip firing"). That's about the average distance (or less) for self-defense. If I'm in an emergency situation where I have to quickly draw and fire my weapon, I'm not going to have time to take the proper stance, use both hands and make sure my sights are properly aligned. I'm going to fire at my assailant who is also firing (or about to fire) at me and try to take him down under extremely stressful conditions. There may or not be cover available so it could be a "kill or be killed" situation. If you're carrying for self-defense, practice under the worst-case scenario. Paper targets don't shoot back. 0 -
For a self defence situation any shot that stops the intruder in his tracks is plenty accurate![;)][:D] 0 -
For me accuracy has to start with the gun, if the gun is not accurate then I cannot be accurate. Any gun that I shoot first gets shot off a rest, I use a Caldwell bench rest so I may get the absolute best out of the gun. With rifles if it groups larger than 1" at 100 yards from the rock solid rest then shooting it offhand will result in terrible accuracy. I have witnessed guys at the range before deer season shooting 2-3" groups and be happy with that, if I can shoot offhand a 3" group at 100 yards I am happy but off a rest if that is all the better the gun would do it would be gone.
Same with handguns, the gun needs to be accurate before the shooter can be accurate. If you place a handgun in a vise and group it at say 25 yards and it is spraying bullets all over the place, do you want to use that gun as a self defense tool?
With any gun I own I strive for the absolute best accuracy I can get from the gun, I have my own standards that are far higher than the average hunter, I want my guns to be perfect therefor when I need to make a shot the blame is on me, not the gun if I miss.
A long time ago I got out of the "well it will work for what I want it for" mentality, now what you call Bullseye accuracy is my standard for all my guns. Even if it is "combat" so to speak I want my gun performing at it's best (this is why I absolutly hate an AK47!) If the gun doesnt perform you can't perform, plain and simple. So whether it is a deer rifle, a handgun for self defense or even an Ar15 for self defense my goal is the same for each one of them, it must perform well from the bench before I will consider using it for a task.
It has made me arrogant in some ways, I will never step into the woods again with a gun like a 30-30 that is only capable of shooting a 3" group at 100 yards, to me that is ignorant and irresponsible to carry a gun that shoots like that, the same with any gun, if I have a task for that gun, if it will not do it well I don't want it. Plus this attitude makes for some great hobbies such as reloading! [:D]0 -
quote:Originally posted by Pa Redneck
For me accuracy has to start with the gun, if the gun is not accurate then I cannot be accurate. Any gun that I shoot first gets shot off a rest, I use a Caldwell bench rest so I may get the absolute best out of the gun. With rifles if it groups larger than 1" at 100 yards from the rock solid rest then shooting it offhand will result in terrible accuracy. I have witnessed guys at the range before deer season shooting 2-3" groups and be happy with that, if I can shoot offhand a 3" group at 100 yards I am happy but off a rest if that is all the better the gun would do it would be gone.
Same with handguns, the gun needs to be accurate before the shooter can be accurate. If you place a handgun in a vise and group it at say 25 yards and it is spraying bullets all over the place, do you want to use that gun as a self defense tool?
With any gun I own I strive for the absolute best accuracy I can get from the gun, I have my own standards that are far higher than the average hunter, I want my guns to be perfect therefor when I need to make a shot the blame is on me, not the gun if I miss.
A long time ago I got out of the "well it will work for what I want it for" mentality, now what you call Bullseye accuracy is my standard for all my guns. Even if it is "combat" so to speak I want my gun performing at it's best (this is why I absolutly hate an AK47!) If the gun doesnt perform you can't perform, plain and simple. So whether it is a deer rifle, a handgun for self defense or even an Ar15 for self defense my goal is the same for each one of them, it must perform well from the bench before I will consider using it for a task.
It has made me arrogant in some ways, I will never step into the woods again with a gun like a 30-30 that is only capable of shooting a 3" group at 100 yards, to me that is ignorant and irresponsible to carry a gun that shoots like that, the same with any gun, if I have a task for that gun, if it will not do it well I don't want it. Plus this attitude makes for some great hobbies such as reloading! [:D]
+1, good advice here, know your chosen weapon[;)][:D]0 -
Maybe I should clarify, I'm not talking about range accuracy of hunting accuracy. I'm talking about SHTF accuracy for those things that go bump in the night or approach you from out of thin air. Thanks. 0 -
Your gun is only as accurate as you are. 0 -
quote:Originally posted by green mile
Maybe I should clarify, I'm not talking about range accuracy of hunting accuracy. I'm talking about SHTF accuracy for those things that go bump in the night or approach you from out of thin air. Thanks.
That is why I said what I did above!
I practice useing full sized siluettes and aim for center mass!
With most of my pistols I don't need to aim to deliver a lethal shot at 12 yards and under because of the practice I have done. I can basicly point and shoot and know it will be lethal within that range.
Yes I agree that a pistol itself does need to be reasonably accurate which is where testing from a rest comes in. But after you test that it is a matter of chooseing a pistol you are comfortable with and then practicing to the point where you can shoot that pistol by second nature!0 -
Green Mile, a turd is a turd whether it is a self defense SHTF gun or a bench rifle, if the gun is not accurate it is best used as a hood prop or a paper weight.
The comment "Your gun is only as accurate as you are." is only true to a certain point, I don't care how good of a shot you are if you are holding a turd you are not going to hit what you want.
You mention things that go bump in the night, here is a simple scenario for you,
You wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of muffled screams, you grab your gun and go to see what is going on. Once into the living room you find an intruder attemtping to rape your wife.
This is where my way of thinking comes into play and since I am not much up on handguns I will use a self defense rifle as my example. You had a choice when leaving the bedroom, a Bushmaster AR15 and a Romanian AK47, which gun did you choose? I chose the AR15 because it is far more accurate.
Back to the scenario, upon finding the rapist on top of your wife you immediatly bring the rifle to your shoulder and take aim, you begin yelling at the man to get up but he refuses, you notice he has a handgun and is slowly bringing it to aim at your wifes head demanding that you drop your weapon. You have two choices right now, surrender or end it swiftly. Now do you want to fire that AK at the mans head that is only an inch or two from your wifes head or will you feel better using the AR15?
Think about it, using a substandard gun that will not perform well when sandbagged is not going to shoot well when you need to fire it off hand and it does not matter how good of a shot you are. You as a responsible shooter owe it to yourself and others to arm yourself with a gun that you know will put bullets where you want them not a spray and pray gun that could harm the wrong person. Once again knowingly using a gun that shoots like crap for anything other than plinking is irresponsible. Defending your life or the life of a loved one with a gun that even with the best aim you don't know EXACTLY where that bullet is going to land is idiotic.
Pardon my arrogance, I don't mean to sound all high and mighty but I have learned over the years the value and importance of making sure any gun I use is fit for use and this means I will never carry a Jennings for self defense, I will never keep an AK47 in my house for protection and I sure as hell won't deer hunt with a 30-30. Thats just me [:)]0 -
quote:Originally posted by green mile
Maybe I should clarify, I'm not talking about range accuracy of hunting accuracy. I'm talking about SHTF accuracy for those things that go bump in the night or approach you from out of thin air. Thanks.
accuracy is accuracy, it doesn't matter what the target is having the ability to put a bullet where you want it is the key but there are several things at play, using a ransom rest is the full proof way of testing a guns ability by taking out the human error factor, this is the only way of testing a guns true accuracy, and is the industry standard
quote:how accurate is accurate for a self defense situation with say a Glock 19 or a Ruger SP101?
lets assume both have equal barrel length, i will be the first to admit a glocks polygonal barrel is not as accurate a the same sized rifled barrel, but were not talking much, your average shooter will not notice the difference
quote:There is a huge difference between bullseye accuracy and combat (self defense) accuracy
yes there is but don't kid yourself, accuracy is equally important in combat shooting, this is why i.d.p.a., u.s.p.s.a. penalizes for inaccuracy, if your looking for an very accurate handgun to make up or compensate for accuracy your not going to find one that will make up for a lack of practice, almost every i.d.p.a. match i ever won, i also won the most accurate category, and yes it was with a wilson combat .45 or a glock 34, but most of all it was 10's of thousands of rounds of practice
and read pa rednecks advice, and hit the range, reading does very little to make a weight lifter stronger or a runner faster, so it will do very little to make a shooter more accurate, i've out shot every bullseye shooter i have encountered in 1/10th of the time it takes them to shoot the same target0 -
g m, basically what you are being told is that the bench tests ARE showing you how accurate that gun will be when shtf...the rest is on you to hit the target as the weapon has been proven to do the job 0 -
If I read the quesion right, this can't be answered. Your asking about the skill of the shooter. The gun does what it does, bench shooting proves that.
Free handed, it will still shoot the same. It's up to the shooter's skills on how still he can hold it. How accurate is it? Who knows.
Go with a larger caliber, if your worried about accuratcy, that way if your off a little the caliber will be more forgiving.0 -
accuracy varies greatly with the shooter.
I was at a gun show one time and there was a table selling built-in laser grips. he was talking about at what range one might need a laser on a handgun. he thought it was closer, I thought it wasn't needed until much farther out. he disagreed.
so to prove my point, I picked up a display model off the table, said "see that "o" on the banner up there"? (hanging off the ceiling behind us about 20 feet away) spun around and pointed the gun up and at the banner (not towards any people!), sloppy weaver stance, no sight picture at all.
turned on the laser. it was about 8" off the "o".0 -
I agree skill is all of it. I allways thought that if i could keep my 45 on a paper plate in any position (one handed,one knee,off balance) at 20-25 feet. hopefully things would be ok. 0 -
<< "You wake up in the middle of the night to the sound of muffled screams, you grab your gun and go to see what is going on. Once into the living room you find an intruder attemtping to rape your wife." >>
In such a senario, I would grab my laser sighted Ruger standard. Although just a .22, it can sure scramble a brain.[:)]
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A Ransom Rest will tell you the best a gun can do with a certain load. Then you shoot the most accurate combo yourself to see what your best accuracy is. 0 -
"Back to the scenario, upon finding the rapist on top of your wife you immediatly bring the rifle to your shoulder and take aim, you begin yelling at the man to get up but he refuses, you notice he has a handgun and is slowly bringing it to aim at your wifes head demanding that you drop your weapon."
I'd tell him, "That didn't work for me,buddy, what makes you think it will work for you?"0 -
"I agree skill is all of it. I allways thought that if i could keep my 45 on a paper plate in any position (one handed,one knee,off balance) at 20-25 feet. hopefully things would be ok."
Hey Mustang, what size paper plate?0 -
quote:Originally posted by green mile
"I agree skill is all of it. I allways thought that if i could keep my 45 on a paper plate in any position (one handed,one knee,off balance) at 20-25 feet. hopefully things would be ok."
Hey Mustang, what size paper plate?
I agree. That was the point of my response. There are no rules in a gunfight except survival.0 -
Arrogance is its' own reward.
I guess blindness is, too.
For self defense weapons, my standard is keeping 75 percent of my rounds on an 8" paper plate. Range doesn't make any difference, if it satisfies that criteria.
For hunting weapons, <1.0 MOA.
My thoughts.
Doug0 -
I was disappointed by the liberal qualifications requirements at the CCW training. Basically, if you could hit anywhere on a target 18"x24" at 7 yards and didn't violate range rules, you passed. A couple of us made a respectable showing but some others barely made minimum. It's kind of like getting a drivers' license-there's a big difference between good driving and just passing. 0 -
Bench accuracy is the gun's accuracy, if you are talking about SHTF accuracy you are talking about the individual shooter.
With a handgun I practice "accuracy" only twice a year at 7, 15, and 25 yards with aimed shots.
My real practise (couple times a month) consists of quick draws and double taps to the torso at 1 to 5 yards. On the extra close (1-3 yards) I fire basically from the hip one handed. Past 9 or 10 feet I draw and extend with two hand grip, but only use the front site and keep both eyes open. I occasionally throw in a head shot after the double tap, but I don't do it every time.
One thing alot of people make a mistake with on practise is closing one eye. When you get in a ultra high stress situtaion I have found through personal experience and many others' stories that it is virtually impossible to close one eye. It's part of the fight/flight response, you just can't do it.0 -
quote:How Accurate is Accurate?
When you hit center mass as targeted.0 -
Accuracy is hitting the target.
Precision is printing tiny groups.
Handgun-wise, if it shoots 10" groups at 25 yards that are centered on the point of aim, it's accurate but not precise.
If it shoots 1" groups in the corner of the target, it's precise but not accurate.
10" in the corner: Neither precise nor accurate.
1" at POA: Both precise and accurate.
Every time I hear/read about how accurate this or that is, it feels the same as when people call a magazine a clip or a pistol an assault weapon. There. I feel better now. Anywho...
As others have already mentioned, there is the intrinsic precision in the platform, and then there is what you can actually hit with it in your hands. A classic example is snubby revolvers like the SP101, which are often capable of putting good ammo into tiny groups when machine rested, but whose size, grips, trigger and sights make it practically impossible to do hand-held. An SA semi with a good trigger is much easier to shoot and use to it's potential.
Acceptable precision is whatever is acceptable to you. So read up on whatever scenario you're concerned with, do some shooting, realistically analyse your situation, and make your own standards.
Personally, my standard for SHTF arms is 3", at 25 yards for handguns and 100 for carbines. I've shot enough and know myself well enough to know that's all I'm likely to need. (Not bragging, but to emphasize Know Thyself, my standing w/o support groups under the stress of competition are usually about the same as my benched groups, with the exception of my nicely precise bolt gun.)(Or mebbe I just suck at bench shooting!)0 -
A likely scenario to prepare for is if a perp is almost on top of you and you are fending him off with the left hand while firing from the hip or slightly behind the hip.
(Muzzle blast is pretty good.)
The British police in Shanghai pre WW2 found this an important stance
to prepare for. They kept a scoresheet on police / perp shootouts and their tactics were better than the BGs.0
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