At last! (Gun pics) Update: image intensive
Some of you might remember my several posts on this topic.
In short, somewhat over five years ago I received contact from a relative I didn't know existed, who lived in Afica, explaining that I was the most logical heir to some heirlooms.
I gave him my information, and then regretted it.
But guess what! I was born in Africa, and sometimes it ain't a scam!
He died about two years after first contact and I got all of two e-mails from him in the interim so in spite of my efforts I know very little about these items.
I inherited several pieces of china, the old family bible, and six guns. I got the china and the bible last year.
Today, three years and two months of effort have netted me this: I got the guns cleared through the probate courts, out of the estate and into the hands of an exporter in South Africa, got all of the paperwork finalized on both continents and cleared my arms through customs. They are now mine! Three guns were lost in the process. There was a cheap-azz air-rifle that wasn't worth the time or effort to import, a Bernardelli pocket pistol that cannot be imported under US law (barrel too short...and that's a bummer, I wanted that one), and an Enfield .303 that would have cost more to import than it was worth--because it's milsurp. But the three arms that were really heirloom arms all made it!
If you care, the import/export procedure actually took only about 10 months, the rest of those 38 months were probate/estate issues. Still, I wouldn't do it again unless it were another heirloom issue. Importing arms is a big, nasty, PITA process.
Eh. Who cares? Here they are!
Note: original image replaced with a better version.

These were in poorer condition than I had hoped, but I should have expected that. They were working guns that belonged to Boers (Afrikaans farmers) and therefore were probably viewed primarily as tools.
I apologize for the poor picture, but I'm not very good at photographing guns and I'm exhausted right now, anyway. I'll post better pics with some questions on preservation and restoration tomorrow.
For now we have (top to bottom):
1) Westley Richards .450 No. 2 falling block single shot. This one has surface rust and like the Mannlicher, also has a bunch of crud in the barrel. It looks like the chamber has some rust but I haven't figured out yet how bad that is. The cleaning rod is missing and the front sight is broken. I think it was used hard, cleaned little, and then when its owner moved to town was simply stored without cleaning or oiling....so it's probably been over 40 years since this was fired, and it hasn't been cleaned since. So sad.
2)Mannlicher-Schoennauer 8mm (I don't yet know which 8mm). This is perhaps the prettiest of them, but what a shame! Note the three wires above the trigger and the mess of wire behind the trigger: the stock broke and somebody tried to "repair" it--hence the wire. It's not safe to fire in this state. I'll try to have the original stock repaired, but I won't be surprised if I have to restock this poor rifle entirely. The action on this one is in really good shape. I think it might have gotten cleaned upon the 'repair' and then never fired again, which would explain that.
3) BSA .177 cal air rifle. Funny: this one's the "toy" that was given to a great uncle on his 10th birthday and then passed on to an uncle on his 10th birthday, and this "toy" is in the best condition of the three--trust a 10-year-old! In the picture, the cocking lever is not locked up next to the barrel like it should be for firing (it's late, I'm tired, bad pic), but it's a nice little piece. I actually test-fired this little monkey in my apartment, and it penetrated quite nicely into a phone book. I think the sights want some adjustment, however.
I'll post a new thread tomorrow with better pictures, and will be looking for advice on how to preserve these three pieces. They are heirlooms, and therefore precious in the history they contain. On the other hand, they are also fine machines, and therefore items worthy of maintenance. I'm trying to figure out the balance between preserving history and maintaining items that both are heirlooms and fine pieces of machienery.
So, till tomorrow, just enjoy, and be happy with me that after over three years I finally have my bequest.
Edit: oh yeah, the hang tags on the trigger guards are firearms permits from South Africa dating to 1973 (the rifles) and 1980 (the air-rifle). At some point (I assume 1980) South Africa decided that Air Rifles were arms and required them to be serialized and registered. So that air rifle has a serial number stamped on it that was not put there by the manufacturer, but rather by the SA government. Perhaps for that reason alone I should have imported the cheap-azz air rifle that I let go....because they were consecutively numbered. Oh well.
Added pictures.
I'm still not too happy with my ability to get good images of guns. Some of these have been color-corrected with Photoshop. I know that the best way to shoot them is under sunlight, but I live in an apartment and don't really want to advertise my collection to my somewhat sketchy neighbors. Other than that, tips are welcome!
Westley Richards, .450 No. 2

I recently read a book by an Elephant Hunter (I want to say his name was Taylor). He didn't care for ladder sights. They sounded cool to me. Having handled this rifle just a little bit, I agree with him. They don't engage with a positive click and I continually find myself trying to sight the rifle using the loading chamber for a rear sight, because all the ladder sights are down. Maybe one could become used to this. But I think a fixed rear sight might be better.

More of the ladder sights

Action open. What you can't see is the light rust in the chamber[xx(]

Rust on the right side of the receiver around the safety. The left side of the receiver (not shown) is relatively rust-free, but does have a couple dings).

I think this cracked fore-arm probably can be easily fixed.

Mannlicher-Schoennauer, 8mm. Cartridge currently unknown.


This stock was broken. Look at the "repair." I suppose if I had a hammer with a broken handle and needed to use it, I might wrap it with duct tape to get the job done. Come to think of it, if the Boer who did this had access to duct tape, he might have done the same here!

But did he really need to drill holes in the stock?![xx(][xx(]

Here's the one in the best condition of the three: the BSA airgun.

It's a single-shot, and is loaded here. You can also see the standard rear sight in this picture.

But it's also got a peep sight! It's kind of loose, so I'll need to get that worked on.

In short, somewhat over five years ago I received contact from a relative I didn't know existed, who lived in Afica, explaining that I was the most logical heir to some heirlooms.
I gave him my information, and then regretted it.
But guess what! I was born in Africa, and sometimes it ain't a scam!
He died about two years after first contact and I got all of two e-mails from him in the interim so in spite of my efforts I know very little about these items.
I inherited several pieces of china, the old family bible, and six guns. I got the china and the bible last year.
Today, three years and two months of effort have netted me this: I got the guns cleared through the probate courts, out of the estate and into the hands of an exporter in South Africa, got all of the paperwork finalized on both continents and cleared my arms through customs. They are now mine! Three guns were lost in the process. There was a cheap-azz air-rifle that wasn't worth the time or effort to import, a Bernardelli pocket pistol that cannot be imported under US law (barrel too short...and that's a bummer, I wanted that one), and an Enfield .303 that would have cost more to import than it was worth--because it's milsurp. But the three arms that were really heirloom arms all made it!
If you care, the import/export procedure actually took only about 10 months, the rest of those 38 months were probate/estate issues. Still, I wouldn't do it again unless it were another heirloom issue. Importing arms is a big, nasty, PITA process.
Eh. Who cares? Here they are!
Note: original image replaced with a better version.

These were in poorer condition than I had hoped, but I should have expected that. They were working guns that belonged to Boers (Afrikaans farmers) and therefore were probably viewed primarily as tools.
I apologize for the poor picture, but I'm not very good at photographing guns and I'm exhausted right now, anyway. I'll post better pics with some questions on preservation and restoration tomorrow.
For now we have (top to bottom):
1) Westley Richards .450 No. 2 falling block single shot. This one has surface rust and like the Mannlicher, also has a bunch of crud in the barrel. It looks like the chamber has some rust but I haven't figured out yet how bad that is. The cleaning rod is missing and the front sight is broken. I think it was used hard, cleaned little, and then when its owner moved to town was simply stored without cleaning or oiling....so it's probably been over 40 years since this was fired, and it hasn't been cleaned since. So sad.
2)Mannlicher-Schoennauer 8mm (I don't yet know which 8mm). This is perhaps the prettiest of them, but what a shame! Note the three wires above the trigger and the mess of wire behind the trigger: the stock broke and somebody tried to "repair" it--hence the wire. It's not safe to fire in this state. I'll try to have the original stock repaired, but I won't be surprised if I have to restock this poor rifle entirely. The action on this one is in really good shape. I think it might have gotten cleaned upon the 'repair' and then never fired again, which would explain that.
3) BSA .177 cal air rifle. Funny: this one's the "toy" that was given to a great uncle on his 10th birthday and then passed on to an uncle on his 10th birthday, and this "toy" is in the best condition of the three--trust a 10-year-old! In the picture, the cocking lever is not locked up next to the barrel like it should be for firing (it's late, I'm tired, bad pic), but it's a nice little piece. I actually test-fired this little monkey in my apartment, and it penetrated quite nicely into a phone book. I think the sights want some adjustment, however.
I'll post a new thread tomorrow with better pictures, and will be looking for advice on how to preserve these three pieces. They are heirlooms, and therefore precious in the history they contain. On the other hand, they are also fine machines, and therefore items worthy of maintenance. I'm trying to figure out the balance between preserving history and maintaining items that both are heirlooms and fine pieces of machienery.
So, till tomorrow, just enjoy, and be happy with me that after over three years I finally have my bequest.
Edit: oh yeah, the hang tags on the trigger guards are firearms permits from South Africa dating to 1973 (the rifles) and 1980 (the air-rifle). At some point (I assume 1980) South Africa decided that Air Rifles were arms and required them to be serialized and registered. So that air rifle has a serial number stamped on it that was not put there by the manufacturer, but rather by the SA government. Perhaps for that reason alone I should have imported the cheap-azz air rifle that I let go....because they were consecutively numbered. Oh well.
Added pictures.
I'm still not too happy with my ability to get good images of guns. Some of these have been color-corrected with Photoshop. I know that the best way to shoot them is under sunlight, but I live in an apartment and don't really want to advertise my collection to my somewhat sketchy neighbors. Other than that, tips are welcome!
Westley Richards, .450 No. 2

I recently read a book by an Elephant Hunter (I want to say his name was Taylor). He didn't care for ladder sights. They sounded cool to me. Having handled this rifle just a little bit, I agree with him. They don't engage with a positive click and I continually find myself trying to sight the rifle using the loading chamber for a rear sight, because all the ladder sights are down. Maybe one could become used to this. But I think a fixed rear sight might be better.

More of the ladder sights

Action open. What you can't see is the light rust in the chamber[xx(]

Rust on the right side of the receiver around the safety. The left side of the receiver (not shown) is relatively rust-free, but does have a couple dings).

I think this cracked fore-arm probably can be easily fixed.

Mannlicher-Schoennauer, 8mm. Cartridge currently unknown.


This stock was broken. Look at the "repair." I suppose if I had a hammer with a broken handle and needed to use it, I might wrap it with duct tape to get the job done. Come to think of it, if the Boer who did this had access to duct tape, he might have done the same here!

But did he really need to drill holes in the stock?![xx(][xx(]

Here's the one in the best condition of the three: the BSA airgun.

It's a single-shot, and is loaded here. You can also see the standard rear sight in this picture.

But it's also got a peep sight! It's kind of loose, so I'll need to get that worked on.

0
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The only thing I ever got from africa was a e-mail from some millionair wanting my bank account number to stash his $35 million in it.
I said no.
Nice rifles BTW.0 -
Nice! 0 -
spurgemastur, Congrats on finally getting your guns, I'm looking forward to more pics, especially of the Westley Richards[;)] 0 -
Good for you. I remember your prior posts.
You sure don't give up.0 -
Congrats![8D] 0 -
Cool! History via guns is great. I would like to see better pics. Thanks. 0 -
Seems patients IS a virtue.
Congrats.0 -
The Bolt Action with the broken stock is an 88 Mauser Sporting Rifle.
Most likely an 8mm that uses a .318 bullet instead of the .323 bullets loaded in the 8mm Mauser now.0 -
Nice guns. I dint know you were talking about wesley richards. Still, Unless you are going to use them...????? 0 -
quote:Originally posted by Floyd621
The Bolt Action with the broken stock is an 88 Mauser Sporting Rifle.
Most likely an 8mm that uses a .318 bullet instead of the .323 bullets loaded in the 8mm Mauser now.
Sweet! You know something about this! I'm kind of dumb in this regard. When you say it's an 88 Mauser Sporting Rifle, are you talking about the design, or the manufacturer? I have it from the guy who left it to me that it's a Mannlicher-Schoennauer, and the gunsmith who exported it did not dispute this.
The only markings I can find on the gun are a serial number on the right side of the chamber, something that appears to be a proof mark on the bolt release, something illegible under the bolt handle, and the following on the left side of the chamber:
2,75 g G.B.P
St.m.G
Got any more pearls for this swine? I'd love to hear it!0 -
quote:Originally posted by cartod
Nice guns. I dint know you were talking about wesley richards. Still, Unless you are going to use them...?????
I'm not sure what you mean there. If they're shootable, I'll shoot them. About the only thing you'd do with a .450 on this continent is grizzly or polar bear (maybe bison?) and I'm not about to go out and get any of those. I just think the rifles should be in shooting condition. Besides, they're pretty, and could be prettier.
Anyhow, unless you correct me I'll chalk that up as advice to be pragmatic. You're right. I could dump a bunch of cash into a couple arms that I'll never put to any useful purpose. It's something to think about. But if I were that pragmatic, I wouldn't have spent over three years working to import these guns. I don't have that much cash into them yet, but the hours I've invested could have......
Well, you get the picture.0 -
It's designed after the Mannlicher, Here's one for sale.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=849540710 -
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by cartod
Nice guns. I dint know you were talking about wesley richards. Still, Unless you are going to use them...?????
I'm not sure what you mean there. If they're shootable, I'll shoot them. About the only thing you'd do with a .450 on this continent is grizzly or polar bear (maybe bison?) and I'm not about to go out and get any of those. I just think the rifles should be in shooting condition. Besides, they're pretty, and could be prettier.
Anyhow, unless you correct me I'll chalk that up as advice to be pragmatic. You're right. I could dump a bunch of cash into a couple arms that I'll never put to any useful purpose. It's something to think about. But if I were that pragmatic, I wouldn't have spent over three years working to import these guns. I don't have that much cash into them yet, but the hours I've invested could have......
Well, you get the picture.
OK, get a second mortgage and restore them. If you are doing it to resell probably not a good investment. The engraving alone will be a grand at least. They are beutiful specimens that have had a full life, I dont know that they would handle another.0 -
quote:Originally posted by cartod
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by cartod
Nice guns. I dint know you were talking about wesley richards. Still, Unless you are going to use them...?????
I'm not sure what you mean there. If they're shootable, I'll shoot them. About the only thing you'd do with a .450 on this continent is grizzly or polar bear (maybe bison?) and I'm not about to go out and get any of those. I just think the rifles should be in shooting condition. Besides, they're pretty, and could be prettier.
Anyhow, unless you correct me I'll chalk that up as advice to be pragmatic. You're right. I could dump a bunch of cash into a couple arms that I'll never put to any useful purpose. It's something to think about. But if I were that pragmatic, I wouldn't have spent over three years working to import these guns. I don't have that much cash into them yet, but the hours I've invested could have......
Well, you get the picture.
OK, get a second mortgage and restore them. If you are doing it to resell probably not a good investment. The engraving alone will be a grand at least. They are beutiful specimens that have had a full life, I dont know that they would handle another.
Well, I'm not that wealthy, and probably won't be for a while. I doubt I'd get the engraving restored. I just want the rust off, the stock nice, and the arm in firing condition. I've come to the opinion that I don't really own these arms. I'm just looking after them until the next care-taker takes over. I'll probably fire these less than three dozen times in my life.0 -
quote:Originally posted by Floyd621
It's designed after the Mannlicher, Here's one for sale.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=84954071
Dang. I wish mine looked that nice!
Did you mean: "designed after the Mauser?" I hope so, because I can make sense of that.0 -
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by cartod
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by cartod
Nice guns. I dint know you were talking about wesley richards. Still, Unless you are going to use them...?????
I'm not sure what you mean there. If they're shootable, I'll shoot them. About the only thing you'd do with a .450 on this continent is grizzly or polar bear (maybe bison?) and I'm not about to go out and get any of those. I just think the rifles should be in shooting condition. Besides, they're pretty, and could be prettier.
Anyhow, unless you correct me I'll chalk that up as advice to be pragmatic. You're right. I could dump a bunch of cash into a couple arms that I'll never put to any useful purpose. It's something to think about. But if I were that pragmatic, I wouldn't have spent over three years working to import these guns. I don't have that much cash into them yet, but the hours I've invested could have......
Well, you get the picture.
OK, get a second mortgage and restore them. If you are doing it to resell probably not a good investment. The engraving alone will be a grand at least. They are beutiful specimens that have had a full life, I dont know that they would handle another.
Well, I'm not that wealthy, and probably won't be for a while. I doubt I'd get the engraving restored. I just want the rust off, the stock nice, and the arm in firing condition. I've come to the opinion that I don't really own these arms. I'm just looking after them until the next care-taker takes over. I'll probably fire these less than three dozen times in my life.You might be lucky to live thru one firing. These are not shooters!!! they are hangers!! Im sorry, maybe someone else will tell you different. I have restored guns before and sometimes you are just better off to let them rest in peace. [|)] But man, those ladder sights and farquarsen actions are the berries. And worth a pretty penny the way they are!0 -
quote:Originally posted by cartod
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by cartod
quote:Originally posted by spurgemastur
quote:Originally posted by cartod
Nice guns. I dint know you were talking about wesley richards. Still, Unless you are going to use them...?????
I'm not sure what you mean there. If they're shootable, I'll shoot them. About the only thing you'd do with a .450 on this continent is grizzly or polar bear (maybe bison?) and I'm not about to go out and get any of those. I just think the rifles should be in shooting condition. Besides, they're pretty, and could be prettier.
Anyhow, unless you correct me I'll chalk that up as advice to be pragmatic. You're right. I could dump a bunch of cash into a couple arms that I'll never put to any useful purpose. It's something to think about. But if I were that pragmatic, I wouldn't have spent over three years working to import these guns. I don't have that much cash into them yet, but the hours I've invested could have......
Well, you get the picture.
OK, get a second mortgage and restore them. If you are doing it to resell probably not a good investment. The engraving alone will be a grand at least. They are beutiful specimens that have had a full life, I dont know that they would handle another.
Well, I'm not that wealthy, and probably won't be for a while. I doubt I'd get the engraving restored. I just want the rust off, the stock nice, and the arm in firing condition. I've come to the opinion that I don't really own these arms. I'm just looking after them until the next care-taker takes over. I'll probably fire these less than three dozen times in my life.You might be lucky to live thru one firing. These are not shooters!!! they are hangers!! Im sorry, maybe someone else will tell you different. I have restored guns before and sometimes you are just better off to let them rest in peace. [|)] But man, those ladder sights and farquarsen actions are the berries. And worth a pretty penny the way they are!
Thanks, Cartod. I've seen enough of your posts to believe that you know of which you speak. I'm years away from the moment when I'll decide whether or not to pull the trigger on these arms, but I'll have your input to help me decide.0 -
Heres a Mannlicher, notice how the triggerguard is made.
http://randyrick.us/AustrianFirearms/rdutch.htm0 -
quote:Originally posted by Floyd621
Heres a Mannlicher, notice how the triggerguard is made.
http://randyrick.us/AustrianFirearms/rdutch.htm
I see the difference between that trigger guard and the one on my rifle, but I don't know how to interpret it.
Please walk me through this as if I were a complete idiot, because I know next to nothing about these rifles and sorely need education.0 -
Your Rifle is a German Comission Rifle. They borrowed some of the design features from the Mannlicher. They made sporting Versions like yours as well as Military Versions, Here's one.
http://www.gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=850209700 -
what would the air rifle be worth ???? 0 -
It is indeed a Gewehr 88, not a Mannlicher-Schoenauer.
Chambering could be 8X57I, 8X56 M-S, 8X57IR, etc. I suspect 8X57I, the old 8mm Mauser with a .318 barrel.
I'm confused. African laws might be such that they have to go through an importer on that end, but these are all pre- 1898. From our side, they could just be mailed to your door, no?0 -
quote:Originally posted by jonk
It is indeed a Gewehr 88, not a Mannlicher-Schoenauer.
Chambering could be 8X57I, 8X56 M-S, 8X57IR, etc. I suspect 8X57I, the old 8mm Mauser with a .318 barrel.
I'm confused. African laws might be such that they have to go through an importer on that end, but these are all pre- 1898. From our side, they could just be mailed to your door, no?
A couple different things converged to make me do it the way I did:
First, there were originally supposed to be two additional guns that didn't make it through the import permitting process.
Second, does that 1898 cutoff refer to date the arm was designed, or the date it was built? I still don't know the answer to that question so I assumed it meant "build date" because I figured it was the safer assumption. The .450 has a 1929 manufacture date.
BATF left the .450 on the permit but originally tried to remove the 8mm from the permit, explaining that it was pre 1898. The also tried to remove the air rifle from the permit for obvious reasons. I asked them to put the 8mm and air gun back on the permit because I wasn't 100% sure what the 8mm was (as has become obvious here) and because it made getting the export permit in South Africa easier.0 -
quote:Originally posted by tazzer
what would the air rifle be worth ????
I was hoping one of you might tell me that. My exporter in SA put values on all of these pieces, but the market there is very different than it is here (he valued an Enfield .303 at $10) so I really haven't much of a clue what any of this stuff is worth.0 -
Made before Jan. 1, 1899. So yes, the .450 would require the permit. My bad. As would the other two guns that didn't make it. Probably. Some Enfields were made before then as well. 0
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